Sorabji Review

[minor9th]

Here's an ecstatic review of Jonathan Powell's recent performance of Sorabji's Sequentia cyclica sopra Dies irae ex Missa pro defunctis:

https://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_features.php?id=6626

Now, if only a recording of the complete piece would follow! (At some six hours, it may have limited appeal...)

[jabbz]

I would DEFINITELY buy it.

[richard black]

The prospect of limited sales has never deterred Altarus Records - I ought to know, I used to do the odd spot of work for the label (it's run by one of my oldest friends).

Funnily enough, the recording by John Ogdon of Opus Clavicembalisticum, on that label, has sold rather well over the years. That's cult following for you!

[thalbergmad]

One of the sales was mine.

I just had to see what all the fuss was about.

Thal

[minor9th]

The prospect of limited sales has never deterred Altarus Records - I ought to know, I used to do the odd spot of work for the label (it's run by one of my oldest friends).

Perhaps you can answer a question for me: Why doesn't Altarus ever provide timing  information on the insert card or inside the booklet?

[faulty_damper]

I've listened to some of Powell's live performance recordings from his website.  This is how I first became aurally acquainted with Sorabji's music (which I actually like).  However, there is the obvious problem of his lack of musicianship (and even technicianship) that is really a dis-service to the music.  It doesn't sound like he even considers music a part of Sorabji's compositions and sounds too much like piano-playing.  Granted that he is only well-known because he performs these obscure works I wonder if such lousy performances mandate any recognition especially when these works are often difficult to make sense of.  In such a situation where obscure, difficult to comprehend music must be presented in its best, Powell is not musically and technically equipped to do so.

[retrouvailles]

I've listened to some of Powell's live performance recordings from his website.  This is how I first became aurally acquainted with Sorabji's music (which I actually like).  However, there is the obvious problem of his lack of musicianship (and even technicianship) that is really a dis-service to the music.  It doesn't sound like he even considers music a part of Sorabji's compositions and sounds too much like piano-playing.  Granted that he is only well-known because he performs these obscure works I wonder if such lousy performances mandate any recognition especially when these works are often difficult to make sense of.  In such a situation where obscure, difficult to comprehend music must be presented in its best, Powell is not musically and technically equipped to do so.

Wait, really? Powell is probably one of the only ones out there with the technical capacity to tackle Sorabji's music. I haven't heard all of the live recordings, but judging from the studio ones I think he is the perfect person for the job. There are some live recordings out there that aren't on his site, like of the Solo Concerto, Sonata No. 1, and others, that show his technical and interpretative skills to their fullest extent. Perhaps the ones on his site aren't a good representation of his skills. But, as far as I know, you won't find someone a pianist more dedicated than Powell with a better technical capacity than him, so I think we have to do with what we have (and what we have is not a bad thing!). I give a lot of credit and respect to Jonathan.

[minor9th]

Alistair Hinton must be bound and gagged somewhere or else unconscious--otherwise, he'd be all over this!

[richard black]

Perhaps you can answer a question for me: Why doesn't Altarus ever provide timing  information on the insert card or inside the booklet?

Personal fetish of the boss. Never agreed with him on that one but it's his label.

[thalbergmad]

Alistair Hinton must be bound and gagged somewhere or else unconscious

Its Hogmanay.

I dread to imagine his condition.

Thal

[Etude]

I don't mind so much about the timings, I just find it slightly annoying when multiple movements are put on the same track (Toccata no. 1 is the worst offender I think), especially when one movement runs straight into the next like the 'Coda-Stretta'. 

[faulty_damper]

Wait, really? Powell is probably one of the only ones out there with the technical capacity to tackle Sorabji's music. I haven't heard all of the live recordings, but judging from the studio ones I think he is the perfect person for the job. There are some live recordings out there that aren't on his site, like of the Solo Concerto, Sonata No. 1, and others, that show his technical and interpretative skills to their fullest extent. Perhaps the ones on his site aren't a good representation of his skills.

In response, I'll quote another member on Powell's abilities:

Here's a horrible performance of one of his [Alkan's] pieces:

Powell is obviously dedicated in exposing the unknown and obscure but this has nothing to do with making music.  Anyone who is interested can tell the world about the works of an unknown composer's music.  This doesn't require performing it.  However, the task he has undertaken, both exposing this music AND performing them, is well beyond his capacities.

I have not heard one thing performed by Powell that I consider to be music.  The lack of phrasing makes the music sound unorganized with musical ideas disjointed or disconnected.  The lack of purposeful voicing of chords is another obvious issue with makes the music sound like senseless banging.  The complete lack of expression in his performances makes MIDI a superior alternative.

The Pars Prima of Opus Clavicembalisticum was my first exposure to Sorabji's music.  I even had the score in hand while listening to it and it was obvious that Powell made no attempt understanding the phrasing or even knowing how the parts act contrapuntally.  And the shocking part of his poor performance of it was that I realized how simple the music was and should be presented.  His performance did not represent music.

The Solo Concerto, which I just listened to a moment ago on Youtube (

), also performed by Powell, is exactly the same kind of performance as was the OC.  The same criticisms I had of his OC applies to the Solo Concerto.  It's under tempo, poorly pedaled, phrase-less banging.

But, as far as I know, you won't find someone a pianist more dedicated than Powell with a better technical capacity than him, so I think we have to do with what we have (and what we have is not a bad thing!). I give a lot of credit and respect to Jonathan.

"We have to do with what we have...  "  This sounds like an admission of guilt.

How would you like like an excellent piece of music butchered and then presented as a piece of fine art?  In performances of more well-known pieces of music, (Chopin, Beethoven, Mozart, et al) there is a standard at which we all accept.  Anything coming below that standard will be greatly criticized and very few will want to listen to.  This standard applies even to the unknown and obscure but that standard is actually much higher because of the complete lack of familiarity.  This is why such music must be presented at its best.  Mediocre is not acceptable and yet here we have another pianist (not musician) attempting to present the world with great works of art by polluting the ears.  These works will have to wait for someone who is musically talented to serve them justice.

[retrouvailles]

It's 3 a.m. and I am in no mood to counter verbosity. I will just say that I do not agree with you and nor do many people here. You can go on thinking your opinion, but it will not solve anything. I like Powell, but at the same time, he is human, and high amounts of Sorabji require more than just a human. That is all.

Where is Alistair?!

[thalbergmad]

Where is Alistair?!

Having an in depth conversation about Sorabji with a lampost in Glasgow.

He will need time to recover from the celebrations.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

This standard applies even to the unknown and obscure but that standard is actually much higher because of the complete lack of familiarity. 

I am not sure i understand this. I would have thought that the standard for unfamilier works would be lower.

If i were to play a concert with nothing but Pixis, i could probably get away with it. If i did the same with Chopin, I would be stoned before the 2nd bar.

Thal

[richard black]

I would have thought that the standard for unfamilier works would be lower.

Well, in a way, but as a performer I look at it this way: if I play Chopin or Beethoven badly, people will mark me down as a talentless twit. If, however, I play Pixis or Thalberg badly, there's a very real risk that people will decide neither composer is worth listening to. Which is what I think FD's comment referred to.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I am not sure i understand this. I would have thought that the standard for unfamilier works would be lower.

If i were to play a concert with nothing but Pixis, i could probably get away with it. If i did the same with Chopin, I would be stoned before the 2nd bar.

Thal

Well, in a way, but as a performer I look at it this way: if I play Chopin or Beethoven badly, people will mark me down as a talentless twit. If, however, I play Pixis or Thalberg badly, there's a very real risk that people will decide neither composer is worth listening to. Which I what I think FD's comment referred to.

I think that in their own way both views are correct. If you play obscure music by unfamiliar composers, the audience doesn't know what it should sound like and so you have a higher margin for error (as well as having more room to make interpretative decisions). On the other hand (paraphrasing Richard), if they don't like your performance, in their mind it will be because the composer is bad, whereas if they don't like your Waldstein, it will be because you are bad.

[pies]

edit: nevermind.

[indutrial]

I like Powell, but at the same time, he is human, and high amounts of Sorabji require more than just a human. That is all.

Where is Alistair?!

Where indeed! I want to order the piece mentioned in the article (recently typeset!!!!).

All this crap about Powell being substandard for Sorabji's music is really just plain ridiculous. As of these past few years, he IS the standard for many of Kaikhosru's pieces. The performance may not be dead-perfect to the score but that's not entirely the point at this stage in the game. Pining over the lofty 'standards' that apply to the works of Chopin, etc. in a conversation about the Sorabji works is not fair to someone who has almost nothing to compare his own work with. I've been listening to his recordings of works like Sonata No. 4 and the Toccata for years and nothing about that makes me stick my nose up and start spouting off about 'polluting people's ears.' His work has opened my ears to a whole lot of bold and beautiful music and set a great example of how assiduous one can be as a performer/music historian. Not to mention he's also a composer and a meticulous typesetter (take a look at Sorabji's manuscripts!). Give the guy a break. I'm sure he works much harder and with more dedication than any of us do at our humble musical projects.

[faulty_damper]

It's 3 a.m. and I am in no mood to counter verbosity. I will just say that I do not agree with you and nor do many people here. You can go on thinking your opinion, but it will not solve anything. I like Powell, but at the same time, he is human, and high amounts of Sorabji require more than just a human. That is all.

My opinion does not need the support of others to be justified and it need no defense.  I will not make apologies for a man for music.

[pies]

You're saying that a person that's tackled many giants of the piano repertoire is not 'technically equipped'?  Is this another badly-written half-joke post like your review of Hamelin's In a State of Jazz?  Kill yourself

[faulty_damper]

In response, I'll quote you (again):

Here's a horrible performance of one of his pieces:

From this thread: Alkan's works - im new to them
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,32586.0.html

Pay particular attention to the post immediately after yours, Pies.  I'm sure even you agree with yourself.  Then Ronde les Sylpl then offers someone who is "technically equipped".

Now consider the ideas that have conspired in this thread.

[thalbergmad]

You're saying that a person that's tackled many giants of the piano repertoire is not 'technically equipped'? 

"tackled" is a strange word to be using in this defense.

Anyone can "tackle" a piece. Playing it is something entirely different.

Thal

[pies]

a

[indutrial]

My opinion does not need the support of others to be justified and it need no defense.  I will not make apologies for a man for music.

This is an interesting way to forfeit one's involvement in a debate and makes me wonder why you bother posting anything on forums at all (since apparently your intellect is immune to input that overrides your haughty opinions). Please spare us this adolescent verbal menstruation and get to f**king work on the proposed MIDI sequences of every Sorabji, Feinberg, Alkan, and John White sonata that Jonathan Powell is supposedly guilty of "butchering." Maybe after that 30 years has passed, you'll have come around to getting the point.

[faulty_damper]

So one bad performance makes him a bad pianist?

His performance of Alkan's Symphonie, Finale: Presto is obviously not a "bad performance".  A debate can be had about whether that is considered a performance or not because it is obviously not music.  That can't possibly be an attempt to present a work in its best light.  If Powell has a gripe against Alkan, he has certainly made that clear by making sure that no one would ever want to hear it again.

This is unknown music to most people.  The audience will not have had anything to compare it with and will think that the music is bad, not the performer.  In reality, it is the other way around.  As bad as listeners think the music is, that is actually how bad the pianist is.

(The composer even indicated a metronome marking so that there is no confusion of what presto means.)

Listen to the live recording of Sorabji's solo concerto for Powell at his best.

I have already made comments about his performance of the Solo Concerto in this very same thread.

[retrouvailles]

I have already made comments about his performance of the Solo Concerto in this very same thread.

I said the live recording, not the studio performance.

[faulty_damper]

I said the live recording, not the studio performance.

It was the live recording.

[ahinton]

OK. I haven't been in Glasgow (the city where Opus Clavicembalisticum incidentally first saw the light of day in performance), nor have I been bound and/or gagged or unconscious but away in France for the past 3½ weeks without internet access.

If anything useful has emerged from the lucubrations of this faultiest of dampers here, it is that they have focused attention upon Jonathan Powell's performances and encouraged several people to spring to the defence of a splendid artist who does not actually need defending but who still less deserves the unfounded and absurd accusations thrown at his work here, on which I prefer to desist from comment, given how contemptible they are; suffice it to say that those who care about Sorabji's music and those to whom Mr Powell has introduced to it should consider themselves damn' lucky that they have had opportunities to hear such remarkable playing - and indeed most of them do just that.

Best,

Alistair

[minor9th]

OK. I haven't been in Glasgow (the city where Opus Clavicembalisticum incidentally first saw the light of day in performance), nor have I been bound and/or gagged or unconscious but away in France for the past 3½ weeks without internet access.

If anything useful has emerged from the lucubrations of this faultiest of dampers here, it is that they have focused attention upon Jonathan Powell's performances and encouraged several people to spring to the defence of a splendid artist who does not actually need defending but who still less deserves the unfounded and absurd accusations thrown at his work here, on which I prefer to desist from comment, given how contemptible they are; suffice it to say that those who care about Sorabji's music and those to whom Mr Powell has introduced to it should consider themselves damn' lucky that they have had opportunities to hear such remarkable playing - and indeed most of them do just that.

Best,

Alistair

Well stated.

His playing and the opportunity to hear "O.C" live made me fly for the first time in about 7 years! (from CA to NY) Thanks to Ativan and the lure of his performance, I made it!

[faulty_damper]

If anything useful has emerged from the lucubrations of this faultiest of dampers here, it is that they have focused attention upon Jonathan Powell's performances and encouraged several people to spring to the defence of a splendid artist who does not actually need defending but who still less deserves the unfounded and absurd accusations thrown at his work here, on which I prefer to desist from comment, given how contemptible they are; suffice it to say that those who care about Sorabji's music and those to whom Mr Powell has introduced to it should consider themselves damn' lucky that they have had opportunities to hear such remarkable playing - and indeed most of them do just that.

Best,

Alistair

I agree with you on the point that that which does not need defending does not need defending.  And yet here we have those who insist on making apologies for performances a computer would be sufficiently more capable of out-performing.  None of the specific criticisms have been addressed and instead the writer of those criticisms was attacked, including, even, by you (though in a juvenile manner).  Now if dissent must be quelled for the purpose of maintaining the Reich then all Hail Hinton!

[tds]

*makes popcorn*

[ahinton]

I agree with you on the point that that which does not need defending does not need defending.  And yet here we have those who insist on making apologies for performances a computer would be sufficiently more capable of out-performing.

I've heard no one here apologising; instead, I have noted people giving their own views and dissenting from what purportedly passes for yours. A computer cannot perform anything by itself in any case; your remark here is therefore as inaccurate as it is irrelevant as it is contemptible.

None of the specific criticisms have been addressed and instead the writer of those criticisms was attacked,

I am unaware of having read anything that could reasonable be called criticism from you - mere opinions and/or immature barbs do not criticism make. If you think that you are being attacked, you ain't seen nothing yet!

Now if dissent must be quelled for the purpose of maintaining the Reich then all Hail Hinton!

Dissent need not and must not be quelled; if it were, no one would have had the right to dissent with your absurd remarks as they have indeed done here. As to the Reich, what's Steve got to do with this (on any level)?

You happen not to care for Mr Powell's playing - or so you would have us believe. That's fine, as far as it goes. To make the remarks that you have, however, shows plainly that you have little if any idea of what has gone into either Sorabji's music or Mr Powell's performances of it, yet you persist in your trenchant and unfounded attitude in the face of just about everyone else here who has heard it and them, which should speak eloquently for itself to anyone possessed of even a modicum of intelligence.

Best,

Alistair

[nearenough]

"Well, in a way, but as a performer I look at it this way: if I play Chopin or Beethoven badly, people will mark me down as a talentless twit. If, however, I play Pixis or Thalberg badly, there's a very real risk that people will decide neither composer is worth listening to."

N: And if you play Sorabji badly there is a good chance it will sound better than the original.

[thalbergmad]

If you play Sorabji badly, there is a good chance that nobody will notice.

[tds]

N: And if you play Sorabji badly there is a good chance it will sound better than the original.

lol

[ctrastevere]

N: And if you play Sorabji badly there is a good chance it will sound better than the original.

Please name one example where this would be the case. I'm quite curious.

[indutrial]

If you play Sorabji badly, there is a good chance that nobody will notice.

Hey, Thal. I know that you're not a fan of what Sorabji work you've encountered in the past (and I'll assume that a considerable portion of that was the Opus Clavicembalisticum), but considering your interest in concertos, did you ever check out any of the eight he composed between 1915 and 1930? It's likely that these works won't ever be seeing performances (since it's hard enough to find pianists who can do his solo work justice let alone orchestras who don't care about being broke), but I find myself wondering about how these would sound. I really like Sorabji's first piano quintet (the only non-solo piece of his I've heard a recording of), mostly because the broad gestures of the strings help to focus and contextualize the cascading piano parts towards a more convincing end result.

[thalbergmad]

I have only ever looked at the third concerto (i think), when i found an old edition in a 2nd hand bookshop. This is now in my "unlikely to ever look at it again" pile in my loft.

My ability to read music was and still is totally insufficient to draw anything but confusion from the score and i can only imagine that the concerto would require its own "Champollion" to bring out its meaning.

The short description in Maurice Hinsons Guide does fuel my imagination, so i would love to hear it.

Thal

[pies]

Please name one example where this would be the case. I'm quite curious.

Kentaro Noda playing etude 99.  There's no 'proper' recording to compare it to but it's quite exciting when played at roughly twice the indicated tempo.

[naturlaut]

I consider myself standing on fair ground at this moment.

While I concur with Hinton on Powell's dedication and performance, I also think that perhaps it is a little early to form a definitely, end-of-story conclusion about Sorabji's music and their performances because the music has been, up till recently, so under-exposed that the amount of scholarship being done on it is scant compared to the music and life of Chopin or Beethoven.  I have many recordings of Sorabji (and many scores thanks to Hinton), by Powell, Amato, Habermann, etc., and am, at this stage, consider myself a student at it even though I tremendously enjoy every performance; I would believe no one here, save Hinton and the performers, could claim professor of Sorabji's music just yet.  Powell's aesthetic integrity, pianistic power, and musical ability obviously need no defense: he is a first-rate artist and musician.  While one has the liberty to choosing his preference, it does not affect the level of Powell's capability.  Putting forth one's subjective opinion and packaging it as a definitive statement might seem a little insensible (for little people like me), haughty (for most), and to the truly learned, ignorant. 

However, we might be missing the point here entirely.  We are looking out the window at a beautiful scenary and yet we are discussing the merits of the window. 

[ahinton]

If you play Sorabji badly, there is a good chance that nobody will notice.

Only beause no one will be listening to him...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I consider myself standing on fair ground at this moment.

While I concur with Hinton on Powell's dedication and performance, I also think that perhaps it is a little early to form a definitely, end-of-story conclusion about Sorabji's music and their performances because the music has been, up till recently, so under-exposed that the amount of scholarship being done on it is scant compared to the music and life of Chopin or Beethoven.  I have many recordings of Sorabji (and many scores thanks to Hinton), by Powell, Amato, Habermann, etc., and am, at this stage, consider myself a student at it even though I tremendously enjoy every performance; I would believe no one here, save Hinton and the performers, could claim professor of Sorabji's music just yet.  Powell's aesthetic integrity, pianistic power, and musical ability obviously need no defense: he is a first-rate artist and musician.  While one has the liberty to choosing his preference, it does not affect the level of Powell's capability.  Putting forth one's subjective opinion and packaging it as a definitive statement might seem a little insensible (for little people like me), haughty (for most), and to the truly learned, ignorant. 

However, we might be missing the point here entirely.  We are looking out the window at a beautiful scenary and yet we are discussing the merits of the window. 

You make some very intelligent and well-balanced points here. Of course the "performance tradition" in Sorabji is a relatively young one and there needs to be many more performers and performances for this to develop in future years, although when one remembers that only 30 years ago there were no recordings at all, performances had begun in earnest only a few year previously and those tiny handful of published scores which were the only ones available were gradually going out of print, it is clear that much progress has been made to put Sorabji and his work on the map for people to be able to form their own opinions of it.

The case of Jonathan Powell is different from all the others via-à-vis Sorabji only in that he has already made such an unprecedently vast study of his piano music and is accordingly (as I have observed before) the only pianist to date that has to his credit a traversal of such a large swathe of this repertoire - music spanning more than sixty years - so it is perhaps inevitable that so many people are wont to turn particularly to his performances and recordings for the nearest that one might so far hope to get to "definitive" accounts. That said, it is good that his are not the only fine recordings of Gulistan and St. Bertrand de Comminges around, for example; likewise, Jonathan Powell is not to be typecast as a "Sorabji pianist" to the extent that he has many other repertoire interests and passions, not least the music of Skryabin on whom he is a widely acknowledged and renowned authority.

Best,

Alistair

[opus10no2]

The real revelation from this whole debate is that -

Mental virtuosity ≠ Physical virtuosity.

Powell is evidently a good pianist, and has a rare mental capacity for the cognition of complex note sequences.

However, upon playing Alkan one notices that his physical ability ≠ his mental.

While his facility is good, it is no match for the elite.

One can also conclude that in many important ways Alkan is more difficult than Sorabji.

[indutrial]

It's hard to force myself to even care about any resolution to this argument. Mental vs. Physical...It's a good point but why do we need to even bother. Op.10's argument makes sense but it doesn't even come close to justifying the bile that some posters here are responsible for.

Mr. Powell has never struck me as a pianist who's trying hard to become the instrument's next major super star. He's as much a scholar as a performer and a composer alongside the both of those. If some of his repertoire might be too difficulty for his abilities, I've never even come close to noticing, and I'm miles from caring. It's enough to know that he's put forth the best performances of a number of pieces that 90% pianists leaf past on their way to more of the same play-it-safe standard repertoire bore-a-thons. He also shows a great respect and curiosity towards music history and has written some excellent texts on composers and pieces that most of this forum's piano jocks (or more accurately, this bunch of college-aged piano-jock wanna-bes and stodgy old fart nobodies) couldn't carry on a conversation about.

That being said, I just read some excellent reviews of Mr. Powell's Alexander Goldenweiser: Piano Music, Vol. 1 CD and this will certainly be in my queue of future purchases. I have hopes that he'll also be able to record a bunch of the early Soviet pieces in his repertoire (Protopopov, Krein, Mosolov, Roslavets), great works that receive a horribly small shred of attention in the wider music world.

[ahinton]

It's hard to force myself to even care about any resolution to this argument. Mental vs. Physical...It's a good point but why do we need to even bother. Op.10's argument makes sense but it doesn't even come close to justifying the bile that some posters here are responsible for.

Mr. Powell has never struck me as a pianist who's trying hard to become the instrument's next major super star. He's as much a scholar as a performer and a composer alongside the both of those. If some of his repertoire might be too difficulty for his abilities, I've never even come close to noticing, and I'm miles from caring. It's enough to know that he's put forth the best performances of a number of pieces that 90% pianists leaf past on their way to more of the same play-it-safe standard repertoire bore-a-thons. He also shows a great respect and curiosity towards music history and has written some excellent texts on composers and pieces that most of this forum's piano jocks (or more accurately, this bunch of college-aged piano-jock wanna-bes and stodgy old fart nobodies) couldn't carry on a conversation about.

That being said, I just read some excellent reviews of Mr. Powell's Alexander Goldenweiser: Piano Music, Vol. 1 CD and this will certainly be in my queue of future purchases. I have hopes that he'll also be able to record a bunch of the early Soviet pieces in his repertoire (Protopopov, Krein, Mosolov, Roslavets), great works that receive a horribly small shred of attention in the wider music world.

I agree with all of this. It is - or at least should be - plainly obvious to anyone with even average intelligence that each individual's response to and take on the mental and physical virtuosity of any given performer will inevitably by definition involve a large proportion of subjectivity and that subjective responses should neither be paraded as nor taken to be fact.

Mr Powell is most certainly not at all interested in becoming - or even being seen as - the next or any other piano superstar; it is indeed the superstardom (sometimes superstardom waiting in the wings) of the music that he chooses to play that is what clearly matters to him and should equally matter to us, however and however much some of us may disagree among ourselves about that music.

Best,

Alistair

[edwardweiss]

 I have been following this thread with interest and find Indutrial has summed up my feelings better than I could have expressed them myself. As a great admirer of Sorabji, the resistance to his music and its performers here is quite incredible to me. Sorabji was perceptive enough to see the worth and genius of Busoni and Reger as composers at a time when all they got in England was a sky full of flak. It strikes me that music needs visionary composers such as Sorabji, and campaigning pianists such as Powell, far more than it needs the usual suspects of pianism murdering Liszt's 'Don Juan' and the Bach-Busoni Chaconne-or, indeed, the terminally biased criticising great art.