fingering

[end]

Hi,

when the fingering is not indicated, how should you "finger" it? Just by trial and error till you find the most comfortable option? Or is there a "rule" on how to proceed?

Is there a free resource about it somewhere on the net?

Thank you very much for any help at all.

Also, I found lots or Czerny free on the net (IMSL and other virtual libraries), but not the complete op.599 (only n.1 and 2). Is it available for free somewhere on the net?

Thank you again for any help at all.

[Petter]

If you practice scales and arpeggios it will come more or less natural after awhile. It takes quite some time though. Fingering is not a general rule even when indicated and it´s always best to chose what´s most comfortable for you even if I strongly suggest a teacher as guidance. Different editions of scores are generally considered good or bad aswell depending what music you play.

[mad_max2024]

It's not exactly trial and error and there is no fixed rule.
Even when the fingering is noted in the sheet you sometimes find that you have to alter it because it doesn't fit your hand. All hands are different and what applies to one may not necessarily apply to other.
After a while you begin to naturally feel which fingers fit better in a passage and must only make adjustments when you find it's not so.
It takes a bit of experience to figure out which fingers you should use and even seasoned players are sometimes caught staring at a sheet clueless as to how to finger a certain passage. I often discuss with my teacher for a long time in hard to finger passages trying to figure out what is best.

As a few pointers.
Try to keep the thumb away from black keys unless needed.
If you play 3 black keys in a row use 4-3-2 so you can use 1 in the following white (or 2-3-4 in the opposite direction).
If there are 2 black keys use 3-2-1.
Use whatever fingers are necessary to connect all that must be connected.

These are just a few things I remembered and certainly not strict rules. It's very hard to give a general answer to "What fingering I should use". It all depends on what you are trying to play and what is more comfortable to your hands (and mind).

You should also generally use the fingering that demands less movement out of your hands so you can play at a faster speed when needed.
If you make unecessary movements you may have trouble when you try to raise the speed.

Hope I helped...

[faulty_damper]

It's not exactly trial and error and there is no fixed rule.

Which is why one should never even offer 'guidelines'.

Even when the fingering is noted in the sheet you sometimes find that you have to alter it because it doesn't fit your hand. All hands are different and what applies to one may not necessarily apply to other.

Someone who is experienced can indicate with a fair amount of accuracy the kind of technique the editor or the composer who fingered the passages had.  Rarely are they superlative (i.e. Chopin) but mostly they are bad to horrible (i.e. Oswald Jonas [Haydn Piano Sonatas, Wiener Urtext edition]; Conrad Hansen [Beethoven Piano Sonatas, Henle Verlag].)

As a few pointers.
Try to keep the thumb away from black keys unless needed.
If you play 3 black keys in a row use 4-3-2 so you can use 1 in the following white (or 2-3-4 in the opposite direction).
If there are 2 black keys use 3-2-1.

I severely disagree with this advice.  Even as 'guidelines' they place a heavy restriction on the learner.  The outcome of these 'guidelines' will be the same as calling them 'rules'.  Disregard them in its entirety.

You should also generally use the fingering that demands less movement out of your hands so you can play at a faster speed when needed.
If you make unecessary movements you may have trouble when you try to raise the speed.

I agree with this except that it is not just the fingers that should move less.  Speed is about small movements, not large ones.  However, large movements sometimes must be made to allow for small movements.



As for Czerny studies, the ones published by Schirmer contain massive amounts of editorial fingering.  Even these editorial fingers are bad to really bad.  Czerny indicated very few fingering but even those were just as bad but definitely not worse than the editorial ones.

[pianistimo]

Do you think that fingering depends upon the size of one's hands?  I've somewhat come to this conclusion - although it never hurts to expand one's attempts at large jumps - say 1 to 5 from the lower end of the piano to the highest just for practice.

Fingering Brahms has got to be the end-all for nightmare fingerings.  You have on the one hand a rational brain - and then you're supposed to just 'wing it' when it comes time to perform multiple notes that are sustained while others play.  Unless you are some sort of guru at fingering - sooner or later you run out of fingers and just play it as you want (leaving out some of the finer details).  Unless...you are a six fingered giant.

Debussy, of all composers, should have written in his fingering.

[end]

Thank you VERY much for your posts.

All of them were helpful, because I'm a "teacherless" beginner (just bought piano and new violin and can't afford a teacher right now).

It helped me understand how complicated the issue is.

What I'm afraid of is hurting my hand doing no-no fingerings. Anyway, I'm only doing VERY easy things at the moment (Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star... and the like, besides the very first Hanon studies.

I'm still looking for Czerny's op.599...

Thank you again for your help!

[lostinidlewonder]

Bach pretty much revolutionized the art of fingering on the keyboard, so studying his works first is very important. Tons of easy Bach to sift through.

[pianoperformer]

I don't know; it's mostly pretty natural. It depends a lot on where you're going next, too. For instance if you're about to jump up in the left hand, you might want to keep the thumb free, though it's not completely necessary, either. I just find that's a preference of mine. Usually I just use what fits easiest under my hand.

For instance, I had a chord in the right hand that was Bb, C#, F#, and Bb (ascending). My piano teacher asked if I was using 1-2-3-5, and I said no, 1-2-4-5 felt more natural and fit better under my hand. So I think it depends a lot on your hand.

[allegroz]

Is fingering different when play slow and fast piece?

I sometimes must change fingering to playing faster, because when it come to play slow, any fingering can be use without plroblem....

Are there any guides beside "use the fingering that demands less movement out of your hands so you can play at a faster speed when needed" from mad_max2024, How to make efficient fingering to use in fast piece?

Thank you

[mad_max2024]

I sometimes must change fingering to playing faster, because when it come to play slow, any fingering can be use without plroblem....

That is why I try to think about fast play even when practicing slowly.
Changing fingerings after practicing for a long time can be tricky.

It's mostly about movements. It's hard to give advice without considering the passage you are trying to play and what sort of technique best suits you.

I tried to give generic advice but since that is frowned upon I will stop.
I'm not a teacher and have little experience educating.