Fantasie Impromptu, Chopin

[magomax]

Hi, I don't know whether it is a silly doubt, but I would like to know how should I play accurately this piano piece at the beginning when the right hand starts. There are 16 notes on the right hand for 12 on the left...

Thanks

[pianoperformer]

Just practice it really slowly. Gradually make it faster as you get used to it. In the end, it will not be mathematically perfect, but it should be close.

[sss3d]

He's new to this guys.

What you are asking which is why the FI piece is famous,

is that the left hand you play in intervals of 3.

and right hand you play with intervals of 4.

[pianoperformer]

OK, so clarification of that rhythm.

When I have something like this, I break it down mathematically into fractions of a beat.

The right hand plays every 0.25, and the left hand plays every 0.33.

So you have:

Left/right: 0.00
Right: 0.25
Left: 0.33
Right: 0.5
Left: 0.66
Right: 0.75

So let's take the left hand as our base, and put the right hand between it.

The two hands play together on the first note.

The second note of the right hand comes immediately before the second note of the left hand.

The third note of the right hand comes roughly in the middle of the second and third notes of the left hand.

The fourth note of the right hand comes immediately after the third note of the left hand.

[magomax]

Nice. I'll do it that way, and then I'll make it faster gradually. I was confused because it is the first time I see this structure. I hope I get used to it.

Thanks!

[arumih]

Don't mean to be a killjoy or a discouragement in anyway but...

If this is the first time you're seeing a 4 against 3 rhythm (to the point that you didn't even recognise what it was)...are you sure FI is right for you right now? It's not an easy rhythm to get figured out correctly, and even when you do get it somewhat right it takes a while for it to become as second nature as normal rhythms are. I've never played FI and am in no position to even attempt it, but I have learnt a 4 vs 3 rhythm in another piece and it took (and is still taking!) a while for it to be ingrained in my head and under my fingers.

Try to get a music notation programme and write out a few bars to hear how the rhythm sounds, also a good programme to get is tune-smithy (I think you get it on a 30 day free trial) which can play a variety of polyrhythms. You REALLY need to understand and have that 4 vs 3 rhythm ingrained in your head to the point where you can tap it out using your hands before you can properly attempt to play it.

At least this was my experience in a much easier piece than FI where I came across that rhythm. Then again, I've only been playing for 2 years so it could just be me! Good luck!

[magomax]

Maybe you're right, if you know any other piano piece with a 4 vs 3 rhythm please advise it to me. Have you only played for two years? I don't know if 4 vs 3 rhythms are usual, but I've played for 13 years (last 2 I haven't played much but I'm taking it seriously again) and I've played songs like fly of the bumble bee or the Nabucco, bach preludes and fugues... I mean, I'm not an expert but I can play pretty difficult (for me) pieces which I may take two weeks or more to learn but I end up knowing every small detail about it. That's why I thought FI would be a good challenge, but I soon realized I had never seen a rhythm like that (I think) and I don't have a teacher right now so I thought this would be a good place to ask

Anyway! If you could tell me any other piece where I could practice that I would be really thankful.

Max

[arumih]

Well with the length of time you've been playing perhaps it may not be much of a major problem, just a matter of practice. Can't really give any pieces except exercise 1 from Brahms' 51 Exercises. That's pretty much 4 vs 3 and some 5 vs 4 throughout. I haven't played it though, teacher assigned it, I had one look and just shook my head lol. The piece where I encountered it was Aeris' Theme from Final Fantasy VII hehe, just occurred in a few bars but that piece also features a good section of duplets versus triplets rhythms. 

Biggest help for me though really was using a music notation programme and tune-smithy to get the rhythm. Also, wikipedia gives a goodish explanation of polyrhythms and examples of how to count a 4 vs 3 rhythm.

Yeah, just two years under the belt so far, I feel as if it's you I should be asking for advice and not the other way around! 

[Petter]

Biggest help for me though really was using a music notation programme and tune-smithy to get the rhythm. Also, wikipedia gives a goodish explanation of polyrhythms and examples of how to count a 4 vs 3 rhythm.

That´s what I did aswell. Allthough I can´t play it.

[general disarray]

You can make yourself crazy over 4 vs 3 and 5 vs 3 and all other insane rhythmic combinations.

I think the best solution is pianoperformer's where you mathematically chart where the notes will fall against or align with one another.  Get the passage solidly in yours hands with HS practicing and glue 'em back together.  In time, it automatically falls together and you can simultaneously feel, in one hand, the triplets, and the quadruplets, in the other and, and it works beautifully and polyrhythmcially together.   

It's what we keyboard artists do, right?  We are SOOOO special!! 

[whiteboyfunk]

It's tricky to put into practice the proper timing for the notes on this song. The best advice I can give you is this - pick two measures and learn them well. Play it until it's memorized and put them together. It won't sound right when it's slow, as I feel that's the nature of the song. Over time you will merely have to build speed, and this will create a very smooth flow of the fingers. After you have heard the pattern of the measures, you can apply it to just about the entire song.

Hope this helps!

-Clay

[whiteboyfunk]

OK, so clarification of that rhythm.

When I have something like this, I break it down mathematically into fractions of a beat.

The right hand plays every 0.25, and the left hand plays every 0.33.

So you have:

Left/right: 0.00
Right: 0.25
Left: 0.33
Right: 0.5
Left: 0.66
Right: 0.75

So let's take the left hand as our base, and put the right hand between it.

The two hands play together on the first note.

The second note of the right hand comes immediately before the second note of the left hand.

The third note of the right hand comes roughly in the middle of the second and third notes of the left hand.

The fourth note of the right hand comes immediately after the third note of the left hand.

I, too, hate to be a killjoy...but I don't think this is the right approach to the music.

Listen to professionals play it and learn from them! PLEASE don't rely on computers, mathematics, etc. to figure out the 'timing.' So much of music is about feeling. Now I know that there are many musicians who minor in mathematics in universities, but I hardly think that justifies this approach.

You want to sound like Horowitz, or do you want to sound like Hawking's midi speaking-machine?

-Clay

[pianowolfi]

it often helps me to have a combination of words to get a certain polyrhythm. For 3 against 4 this would be for instance: "Pass the golden butter" or for 3 against 2 "nice cup of tea"

[daniloperusina]

For me, this is the easiest and best method:
Find out where the two hands coincide.
The arrows in this example shows where:


Next, practice only until the first arrow, make sure both hands play perfectly even:



Continue from that arrow and practice to the next arrow;



Continue in this way throughout the bar. Then gradually take two such exercises together, then three, etc. This method works best by not playing too slowly. Practice these small sections hands separate first, to make sure you are even. Not too slow! The point of not being too slow is to fascilitate "feeling" the rythm, which is more difficult at a slow tempo.

[sashaco]

The best way to achieve the "feeling" for polyrythms that some respondents refer to, is to use a variety of approaches, like those above.  After a while they will start to come together and cease to feel like different approaches. 
Here's another you can try, a method drawn from Indian rythm techniques. 
Perform each step at least 4 times before moving on and this will feel easy.

Start clapping your hands in a SLOW three beat. 
Then use a full hand for ONE, the fifth finger for TWO, and the fourth finger for THREE.
To this beat, speak the words Ta, Ki, Da.
Double the speaking beat while keeping the hand clap the same.
Drop the Ki and the Da. (You should continue to hear them in your head, at least for a while.)  You are now performing 2 against 3.
Add all three words again.
Double the spoken beat again.  (Remember, I said start clapping a SLOW 3 beat.)
Drop the Ki and the Da again.
You are now performing 3 against four.

For me this has the virtue of COMBINING the intellectual approach ("draw a chart")
with the physical approach ("you'll just start to feel it").
I recently got a group of eight and nine year olds successfully doing 3 against 4, and I am no gifted music teacher, and have little rythm myself. 
It will probably take time to become proficient enough in this that it becomes natural for your fingers, but is there any part of learning the piano for which that isn't true?

I had only a tiny exposure to these Indian methods, but people who study them can become extraordinarily profficient in polyrythms, achieving things almost unimaginable to western classical musicians or jazz players.

Good luck.

[afallach]

Sashaco,
I know this description makes sense to you, but I'm not getting it.

I think in your first line, you might mean "triple rhythm" instead of "three beat."
I'm not splitting hairs here, but trying to clear up my confusion about what you mean in the third line by "beat".
And what do the full hand, fifth finger, and fourth finger have to do with anything, and what do you mean by "use" them.
You can't clap your fingers, so when you say keep the hand clap the same (4th line) after using the fingers for two of the three claps per beat, what does that mean.

Could you try again? This really sounds useful, but I'm not getting it.

Thanks,
David

[sashaco]

OK!  Sorry!
Clap your hands in a steady slow beat, making the first of every three slightly louder- as you would play in 3/4.
For the second two beats, use the fifth and then the fourth finger.  These will, as you say, not produce a loud clap, (more of a muted tap!) but this is intended as a drill, not something designed for performance.  The virtue of this is that you always know precisely where you are in your bar, or triplet.  If you prefer, you can use your palm for the first beat of each three, and the back of your hand for the next two.  If you've attended any concerts of classical Indian music you may have seen both performers and clued in members of the audience "keeping the tala" like this.
The point is that you're beating a 3/4 bar with your hands, and speaking words over it.  You don't really have to use  Ta-Ki-Da, you could use the words  "one, two, three"  but then all the beats in the two or four would be the word "one" which would be odd, in a way.  Perhaps I should have given more thought to my explanation, rather than just slapping it down.  My apologies, and I may try to post a clearer version.

[afallach]

Thanks! I got it. Sorry to be so dense. It makes perfect sense now.
David