Are teachers absolutely necessary?

[hikky]

Alright, hello everyone. I'm new here..

I'm 17 years old right now, if that's at all important.

I bought a digital piano a year ago. Due to a lot of things, it got put away for a long time and just about a month ago I dusted it off and got started. I've started by slowly learning some songs.. I did Fur Elise first because I knew the first bit from maybe 10 years ago messing around on the piano in school music class. Well, I never "perfected" fur elise but I can play it through without mistakes here and there; I guess I do butcher the faster parts sometimes though. Anyway, I decided that was a little hard for me right now and I learned Bach's musette and now I'm working on his Minuet in G major and a "level 5" (Whatever that means) arrangement of Canon in D.

Ok, so that's what I've been doing. I still can not sight read well, but I'm getting better. I've been careful to try and figure out fingerings that work well and comfortably.

I've done some reading on how to improve and it seems like the first suggestion anyone has is "get a teacher". I personally am not good with teachers, in anything. I learn on my own. That's just how I work best. I teach myself for school (Homeschooled), I teach myself for foreign languages, and so on. I am just used to learning on my own. I'm honestly not a really social person. I had a teacher for a couple weeks when I was younger and my hands would always shake when I tried to play in the lessons. They do that when I play an instrument I'm not yet confident with.

So, is it really that big of a deal as people say it is to go without a teacher? Is it just impossible to get good without one? I am a very self-motivated person and I like to believe that with selective research and proper practice it's possible. But am I just being naiive? (On top of the social thing, I just don't really have the extra money for lessons).

I'm sorry if this is one of those annoying first posts. I just figure I should get this figured out before I continue too much.

[nyonyo]

It really depends on your personal goal.
If you have no intention to play piano seriously, a teacher is not necessary if you can do what you want.

But if you want to play well, I really find that it is hard to improve fast without a teacher who can help you to correct your problems.

[end]

hikky:

I can sympathize with you. I'm a bit the same. Like you, I love languages (speak 6 and I'm working on my 7th) and have learned them all alone. I'm a Ph.D. and I've did it all mostly alone. Though I make friends easily, I'm a compulsive learner (I prefer studying than doing anything else, and I can study for hours), and people like me are lonely people, because the rest of the world finds us weirdos. At school, the other kids would go playing (at break time) and I would go to a quiet corner to study. I couldn't wait for vacation, so that I could study something new. I'm not specially intelligent. I just like studying.

A teacher put me off violin as a child and now I'm studying the violin again. And the guitar. And the piano.

I can't have a teacher now (for various reasons), but I'd like to have one eventually, but the truth is that I have my way of learning things and I just don't know if I'll really look for a teacher... difficult to explain. I know it's ambiguous...

I think it doesn't hurt trying without one, and that's what I'm doing. With the guitar, it's going fine. I can play the music I like, already, after only a few months. The piano I'm finding very tough, but I won't give up. The violin's going OK, but it's early days.

I can't advise you, obviously, as I'm really just starting the piano now. I just wanted to say you're not alone.

I'll never be a musician (professional, I mean), but that's not my aim. I just want to be able to play some of the music I love, as I can already do on the guitar.

[richard black]

If you just sit at a keyboard and fiddle around, the chance of learning to play anything like properly is slim. But with so many recordings (sound and video) floating around both on the internet and on CD/DVD/videotape etc. etc. you can find out a lot of useful stuff for yourself if you work hard, no doubt.

[arumih]

Hey,

Well this question has been addressed many times on this board, so have a look around and see what other people have to say. Actually if you don't have a teacher now, this board could probably teach you a lot lol...

Well when I started playing piano, I didn't have a teacher, but I already knew how to read music which makes things a bit easier and used some online resources and beginner books. Within a few months I got a teacher, and things really took off after that. The thing with not having a teacher is that you can't identify what you're doing wrong. You can go as slow and as carefully as you want, but you're not gonna pick up on every mistake you make. Even at this point, if I go a few weeks without seeing my teacher for whatever reason, I may think I've made good progress on the pieces I'm learning only for my teacher to point out things I've never even thought about. You need a person with considerably more experience to guide you.

But it all depends on what you want out of piano playing. I started at a late stage (when I was 19) so I know I have no hopes for a concert career lol, but it's something I take seriously so for me a teacher is a must. If this is just going to be a diversion for you to have some fun with, maybe a teacher isn't necessary then.

If you think you have problems with teachers, then perhaps you just haven't found the right teacher yet. A teacher should work with how you learn and have your goals in mind, otherwise that person isn't that great a teacher. Good luck and for the very least, if you're serious have a friend who knows how to play listen to you every once in a while or maybe post some videos in the audition rooms here so that people can give you some advice.

[canardroti]

If you're talented and you understand the wrist/arm/hand motions by yourself. If you're self motivated and willing to learn to play something the right way and not half-assed , then by all means you do not need a teacher. A good teacher will show you and make you understand that every motion is important in playing the piano. It's not something that is natural, after all it is our goal to practice to make it a natural habit. You don't have to be social to learn from a teacher, if you're willing to absorb whatever your teacher tells you, you will improve dramatically.

[communist]

if you are very musical and you know how to interpret things the right way than if you got some suggestions on what to do to practice and what not than i guess you do not need a teacher all tho is would help.

[hyrst]

A good teacher can quickly help you make much progress with your playing.  However, not every teacher is good and there is much you can do alone.  Working alone, you must realise that you probably won't be doing things as efficiently and well as if you had a good teacher - but that does not mean you will play unsatisfactorily for pleasure.  If you can't afford or face a teacher now, do everything you can on your own.  We spend most of our time working and practicing, resolving problems alone even when we do have a teacher.  The purpose of a teacher is to always take you beyond what you would be able to do alone - and usually quicker because they know the better paths.  However, you can achieve a great deal alone if you are thoughtful.  Look to having a teacher some time in the future when you are ready - even if for a 6 month period to work through techniques you haven't quite got right (it usually takes about 6 months).  Maybe a teacher for periods over the years.  Maybe when you are ready you will find a teacher who works well with your independent learning style and you will want to stay with them.  Think about your own needs and goals rather than any fast rule - but be aware that you lack the extra more experienced input that can help quickly resolve struggles and mistakes.

[aslanov]

hey man, i like you got myself a piano a year ago, and having no previous experience started to teach myself. a few things i've learned from that past year. (i got a teacher a month ago)

1) i started with pieces i liked listening to, but were far too difficult and tried to play them anyway, got annoyed with them and moved onto the next failure. dont make this mistake. find a piece you really like AND is easy to play. it is however a nice thing to add to your practicing a piece that is harder, but you enjoy. i woudl just play the main melodic notes of a certain piece i loved just because that melodic line would make me happy. anyway

2) do studies. mainly Czerny studies. there's some compilation of certain czerny's certain studies i have, its published by alfred i believe, and its crucial. something you should practice at least for 20 minutes.

3) forget about grade level recommendations. your not in any grade. neither am i

4)listen to pieces that your practicing played by others. its fairly crucial i'd say, and at the same time read along with your sheet music.

and now the importance of a teacher...

i, like you thought i wouldnt need a teacher, and i like you teach myself a lot. i prefer to learn on my own as well. but it wasnt until a month ago when my new teacher helped me on a piece i was working on (Rachmaninov's prelude op 3 no 2) that i realized how essential a teacher is if you wanna play well (we arent talking professionally or anything, jus play WELL). there are so many ways she helped me. for instance, tempo. tempo. tempo. fingering.tempo. theory. tempo. and tempo.
maybe it was just me, but tempo for me was a huge problem (not huuge, but the biggest of all my problems)

anyway, if you have any questions, need any suggestions, lemme know. i've gone through your path, and now my teacher agrees its time for me to start one of the easier beethoven sonatas. (hope thats progress enough).

[hikky]

I'm thinking based on what you guys have said that I'll give it a few months to get comfortable with it, learn some of the basics and a few songs, maybe get a little practice playing in front of other people, then I'll try getting a teacher. I wouldn't want to hold up my lessons because I was (Involuntarily) nervous about people hearing my playing.. and I know at my current comfort level I would mess up horribly at any sort of thing like a recital.. I don't ever expect to be a concert pianist or anything, but I certainly do intend to get good and want to be able to play some difficult pieces eventually. I can't really "dabble" in something like this.. I tend to get slightly obsessed when I'm doing something that requires a lot of work for a payoff in the distant future, because I have a lot of free time.

I do know one person who plays piano, but sadly, she's 9 years old and is still working on fairly basic material

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback. I feel like I have a little better idea of what I need to be doing in the future now..

[matthew from florida]

Hikky, good question.

We are a lot alike... I started piano at 17, and I was homeschooled

I had a teacher from the start but looking back I should tried studying on my own, and then had a teacher. Right now I'm plowing through Mozart's Turkish March, I don't think I would get through with it without my teacher.

I recommend you go as far as you can, then get a teacher.

[nyonyo]

A teacher is a must, very few people in the world can learn properly. You can imagine those talented people in Juilliard, Curtis, all of them had proper piano training to achieve that level.

One of the problem is that we do not know what we do not know. The more we know about piano playing, the more we realize that to play piano well is extremely difficult.

The same like learning foreign language. Without proper instruction, one will usually will speak like street people.

[hikky]

The same like learning foreign language. Without proper instruction, one will usually will speak like street people.

This is a bad analogy.. foreign language instruction is usually done very poorly and students learn slowly if they learn at all because they are taught all the wrong things. You learn language by experiencing language, not by talking about a foreign language in your native language. Piano is a little different.. people don't know how to teach you their language, because they don't remember learning it. People remember learning piano, so they probably know how to teach piano.

Sorry to assume, but you are Japanese, right? Just based on your name and style of English I am guessing that, sorry if it's wrong.. anyway, I'm learning Japanese right now and after 2 years of study on my own, I guarantee that I'm much better than most people who just took classes on how to speak Japanese for 2 years.

But anyway, like I said I'll probably try to get a teacher once I've learned the basics and feel comfortable with everything, provided I have the money.

[nyonyo]

No, I am not Japanese. But please do tell which part of my writing indicating that I am a Japanese. I am really interested to know.

English is not my native language. The name NYONYO is the name that my maid called me when I grew up, so just for fun I used it.

From my experience, I noticed people who learned English after they arrived in the States, they speak like street people. They speak fluently, but one can tell right away that they did not have good foundation.  The same thing happened to the foreigner who came to my country. Those who came with sufficient language training, they can speak well, but those who learned after they came, they speak like people around them. Some speak properly, but majority do not.  Note: this is only for adult, little kids are different, because they went to school and they learn proper English at school.

I have talked to many piano teachers from Russia, they had the same opinion. Those kids who did not have good foundation, they may be able to play flashy but not classy (what a rhyme)...HEHEHEHE

For piano, you'd better take lesson first and then practice by yourself. Once you have bad habits, it takes longer to correct your bad habits. I agree with you, taking piano lesson with excellent teacher is not cheap. Currently, I pay $80 per hour. It is not extremely expensive, but it is not cheap, at least for me.

[m19834]

Are teachers absolutely necessary?

For what, exactly ?

[hikky]

No, I am not Japanese. But please do tell which part of my writing indicating that I am a Japanese. I am really interested to know.

Oh, sorry for assuming that, it was just similar to the English I see from Japanese people often.

From my experience, I noticed people who learned English after they arrived in the States, they speak like street people. They speak fluently, but one can tell right away that they did not have good foundation.  The same thing happened to the foreigner who came to my country. Those who came with sufficient language training, they can speak well, but those who learned after they came, they speak like people around them. Some speak properly, but majority do not.  Note: this is only for adult, little kids are different, because they went to school and they learn proper English at school.

Well, I think language training creates bad habits and makes it so you never learn the language to a native level. I am not trying to be mean but for example I can tell English is not your first language because you say some things differently, probably due to translating from your first language. Kids learn language by using the language, not by taking classes, that is why we learn our  first language so well, because we have always been around it.

I have talked to many piano teachers from Russia, they had the same opinion. Those kids who did not have good foundation, they may be able to play flashy but not classy (what a rhyme)...HEHEHEHE

I will trust you on this point since I am still a beginner and I can't really tell the difference well between different playing styles.. I'm just wondering if it's actually possible to learn the right technique without a teacher.

For piano, you'd better take lesson first and then practice by yourself. Once you have bad habits, it takes longer to correct your bad habits. I agree with you, taking piano lesson with excellent teacher is not cheap. Currently, I pay $80 per hour. It is not extremely expensive, but it is not cheap, at least for me.

I want to take lessons, but $80 per hour is too expensive.. I can't afford to pay that. I don't have a job right now and even once I get one I will have to be saving for college.

What kind of bad habits would I learn by not having a teacher? Maybe I can study in a way that would help to prevent that?

For what, exactly ?

To become "good". Maybe not "concert pianist" good, but, for example, able to play many of the 8+ pieces here fairly well.

[nyonyo]

I know you are not being mean. We discuss things in this forum. Unless, one is open minded, one will not improve. Again, please point which sentences that I wrote sound funny to you. I want to correct the problem(s). Do I write too formal or as a whole my sentences show that I am not a native speaker?

I remember when I grew up, we have many missionaries from Europe. They had been doing missionary works for 30 to 40 years, yet they still did not know how to speak perfectly. I really think, it is hard to learn a language if one came late. Very rarely can adults who came late speak well. However, there are very few exception for those who are very talented and also have big desire to change their speech pattern etc. Currently, I do not translate anymore from my first language to English.

[m19834]

To become "good". Maybe not "concert pianist" good, but, for example, able to play many of the 8+ pieces here fairly well.

Do you think that your concept of "good" is of equal value to that of a good and experienced teacher's ?

[db05]

You sound like me if I didn't screw up half my life. (Long story.) An intelligent person with a drive to learn and a self-paced method that works well. Or does it? Well you seem to be proud of what you've achieved so far. But take a while to think WHY you're doing this, this accumulating knowledge and skills business. Okay. Done. (Writing goals on here might be a good idea.)

No it's NOT absolutely necessary. In fact, for your case I would advise against it. People like you are rare and teachers who suit you're style are even rarer. I am not saying you are more intelligent or know more about the subject than they do. I am just saying that chances are, you'd end up either bored/ unsatisfied or constantly clashing with your teacher. I had a number of teachers (piano and guitar), now I am left with the "constantly clashing" ones. It's reaaaaaaally stressful and I don't know if you're fine with that. I just get with it because my intelligence can only serve me so far; I'd reached my limit... 

[hikky]

I know you are not being mean. We discuss things in this forum. Unless, one is open minded, one will not improve. Again, please point which sentences that I wrote sound funny to you. I want to correct the problem(s). Do I write too formal or as a whole my sentences show that I am not a native speaker?

I'll reply to this post in a message.

Quote from: hikky on Today at 04:50:43 PM
To become "good". Maybe not "concert pianist" good, but, for example, able to play many of the 8+ pieces here fairly well.

Do you think that your concept of "good" is of equal value to that of a good and experienced teacher's ?

Can you just say what you're trying to say please? I never said my opinion of "good" is the same as a learned musician's opinion of "good". Semantics aside, that's the ideal skill level I want to attain. Maybe I'll change my opinion of what "good" is once I know more, but that's irrelevant to the question.

You sound like me if I didn't screw up half my life. (Long story.) An intelligent person with a drive to learn and a self-paced method that works well. Or does it? Well you seem to be proud of what you've achieved so far. But take a while to think WHY you're doing this, this accumulating knowledge and skills business. Okay. Done. (Writing goals on here might be a good idea.)

No it's NOT absolutely necessary. In fact, for your case I would advise against it. People like you are rare and teachers who suit you're style are even rarer. I am not saying you are more intelligent or know more about the subject than they do. I am just saying that chances are, you'd end up either bored/ unsatisfied or constantly clashing with your teacher. I had a number of teachers (piano and guitar), now I am left with the "constantly clashing" ones. It's reaaaaaaally stressful and I don't know if you're fine with that. I just get with it because my intelligence can only serve me so far; I'd reached my limit... 

Hmm, thanks for this. I admittedly do not get along well with teachers, I never did. In school, in lessons, I never felt teachers were teaching me on an individual basis, and it caused a lot of problems. It's not because I'm arrogant, I just have a different way of learning than some people and it allows me to learn quickly if I do it right, and it's frustrating when someone tries to force me into a different way of learning.

Basically, in a teacher, I'd want someone who could just let me do my thing, maybe help by giving me a direction to go in, and correct my mistakes or bad habits. Are there teachers like that? I don't want someone who is going to tell me every song I have to play and everything I have to do and force their way of learning on me.

[m19834]

Can you just say what you're trying to say please? I never said my opinion of "good" is the same as a learned musician's opinion of "good". Semantics aside, that's the ideal skill level I want to attain. Maybe I'll change my opinion of what "good" is once I know more, but that's irrelevant to the question.

Well, honestly, I am not trying to just say anything, actually.  And, my questions aren't about semantics.  It's just a matter of logic really.  If your idea of good is in no need of growth, and you are satisfied with your playing and ability already, then your question about whether you need a teacher to be good is answered.  And, I think it's perfectly relevant since your goal is to be able to play in a manner which you believe is "good," as you have stated above.  Other than that, my apologies if I have somehow offended you, and I will not bother wasting my own time and energy, nor yours, by further responding .

Cheers !

[m19834]

PS -- A person who truly does not need a teacher doesn't need to ask in the first place whether or not a teacher is a good idea .

[csharp_minor]

Basically, in a teacher, I'd want someone who could just let me do my thing, maybe help by giving me a direction to go in, and correct my mistakes or bad habits. Are there teachers like that? I don't want someone who is going to tell me every song I have to play and everything I have to do and force their way of learning on me.

Hi Hikky,

I can sympathise with you too, as I was and still am kind of in a similar situation; money wise. I’m finding it very very hard to get a job at the moment and can only afford a lesson every other week for half an hour.

Before I took the plunge and took lessons I was teaching myself for 9 months and was progressing ok I thought. I think If you’re having trouble with money continue teaching yourself, but if you do find a way to have lessons then give it a try. I’m sure you will be able to find an understanding teacher if you explain what you want to achieve in your piano study. As you don’t want to do it for a carrier you can take it more slowly and find a way you can learn your own way with the guidance of a teacher. I’m sure if you have the money they will tailor the lesson to suit you! When you have lessons again give it a bit of time to see what you think of the whole thing, and your teacher. When I had my first lesson I came away feeling a bit weird or found my teacher a bit hard.

But looking back I haven’t had lessons for a while as I left school roughly 7 years ago and university  1 year ago, I had forgotten what having a lesson was like. Having private lessons like piano lesson is quite an intense thing as it’s just you and the teacher. It’s one of the things you need to get to grips with; I have never had private lessons before am and still getting used to it, there’s nowhere to hide. I now find my teacher fine, she’s not strict but is not soft, and she gives me constrictive criticism. Like today she said my technique is higher than grade 1 but my sight reading is below (I’m a beginner). The sight reading comment I found a bit hard but it is necessary to have some criticism like that as it can help you overcome your weakness and you will then get better.  As for nerves I often have a bit of nerves and my mind sometime switches off in the lesson. it can be frustrating for me and my teacher. As well as that my teacher often drops a lot of hints and tips that I would never get from learning on my own.     

I hope I have given you an insight into what having a lesson is like from my point of view and not put you off it.  

[hikky]

Well, honestly, I am not trying to just say anything, actually.  And, my questions aren't about semantics.  It's just a matter of logic really.  If your idea of good is in no need of growth, and you are satisfied with your playing and ability already, then your question about whether you need a teacher to be good is answered.  And, I think it's perfectly relevant since your goal is to be able to play in a manner which you believe is "good," as you have stated above.  Other than that, my apologies if I have somehow offended you, and I will not bother wasting my own time and energy, nor yours, by further responding .

Cheers !

Well, I am not satisfied with my playing ability, or anywhere near there.. Like I said, I'm a beginner and wondering how to achieve my desired playing ability.

PS -- A person who truly does not need a teacher doesn't need to ask in the first place whether or not a teacher is a good idea .

I don't see how that's a logical conclusion.. maybe a very confident person.. even though I imagine I can do it, I realize at the same time that I'm a beginner and I've never taught myself a skill such as piano. I'm not worried about being able to learn the musical aspect of it, what I am worried about failing to learn is proper mechanical playing.. using the right fingering, playing with the right posture, in a way that won't lead to injury, with the right hand position, etc.. things like that.

Hi Hikky,

I can sympathise with you too, as I was and still am kind of in a similar situation; money wise. I’m finding it very very hard to get a job at the moment and can only afford a lesson every other week for half an hour.

Before I took the plunge and took lessons I was teaching myself for 9 months and was progressing ok I thought. I think If you’re having trouble with money continue teaching yourself, but if you do find a way to have lessons then give it a try. I’m sure you will be able to find an understanding teacher if you explain what you want to achieve in your piano study. As you don’t want to do it for a carrier you can take it more slowly and find a way you can learn your own way with the guidance of a teacher. I’m sure if you have the money they will tailor the lesson to suit you! When you have lessons again give it a bit of time to see what you think of the whole thing, and your teacher. When I had my first lesson I came away feeling a bit weird or found my teacher a bit hard.

But looking back I haven’t had lessons for a while as I left school roughly 7 years ago and university  1 year ago, I had forgotten what having a lesson was like. Having private lessons like piano lesson is quite an intense thing as it’s just you and the teacher. It’s one of the things you need to get to grips with; I have never had private lessons before am and still getting used to it, there’s nowhere to hide. I now find my teacher fine, she’s not strict but is not soft, and she gives me constrictive criticism. Like today she said my technique is higher than grade 1 but my sight reading is below (I’m a beginner). The sight reading comment I found a bit hard but it is necessary to have some criticism like that as it can help you overcome your weakness and you will then get better.  As for nerves I often have a bit of nerves and my mind sometime switches off in the lesson. it can be frustrating for me and my teacher. As well as that my teacher often drops a lot of hints and tips that I would never get from learning on my own.     

I hope I have given you an insight into what having a lesson is like from my point of view and not put you off it.  

Thanks! I found it pretty interesting. It sounds like getting a teacher is a good way to go, I'm just worried about the money thing, I can't see myself being able to shell out $100s per month for lessons for quite a while.. like, until after college, which would be probably at least 5 years away, and I know my parents don't have the money to pay it, I'm already probably going to be going through college on loans with the help of whatever I manage to save up next year, because it's hard to find a scholarship as a homeschool student..



Anyway, I recorded a video of me playing.. I'm sorry if I really butchered the piece (I just can't play it very consistently well because it's, well, above my level right now) but anyway this is after about 3 weeks total of working on this song (Fur Elise, I know it's a cliche "I want to learn this song" type of song but oh well), what does everyone think? Simple mistakes aside, like missing notes which I can tell when I do, Am I making a lot of technical mistakes as well?

Well, I know it's probably hard to tell from a crappy recording anyway.. 

[csharp_minor]

Thanks! I found it pretty interesting. It sounds like getting a teacher is a good way to go, I'm just worried about the money thing, I can't see myself being able to shell out $100s per month for lessons for quite a while.. like, until after college, which would be probably at least 5 years away, and I know my parents don't have the money to pay it, I'm already probably going to be going through college on loans with the help of whatever I manage to save up next year, because it's hard to find a scholarship as a homeschool student..

Yeah its basically the situation I was in when I was 17. I was in college my dad was paying for me to go there but I wanted to learn the piano but had no money and no piano only a keyboard so I started to teach myself. I then stopped the piano / keyboard for 3 years as I was busy with university and I forgot about it, until 12 months ago.

I can only afford a lesson for half an hour for £12.50, and I want to pass my grade one this year but with only a half hour lesson every two weeks it might take me longer then I expected as I need to get my sight reading up to scratch. I wish I had money! 

I heard your recording and as I’m only a beginner it sounded ok to me! I can only dream of playing it at the moment, but I’m not too bothered about learning it now. The hardest piece I can play is the adagio of Moonlight and Chopin’s prelude in A major Op 28 with dodgy timing!

[hikky]

Yeah its basically the situation I was in when I was 17. I was in college my dad was paying for me to go there but I wanted to learn the piano but had no money and no piano only a keyboard so I started to teach myself. I then stopped the piano / keyboard for 3 years as I was busy with university and I forgot about it, until 12 months ago.

I can only afford a lesson for half an hour for £12.50, and I want to pass my grade one this year but with only a half hour lesson every two weeks it might take me longer then I expected as I need to get my sight reading up to scratch. I wish I had money! 

I heard your recording and as I’m only a beginner it sounded ok to me! I can only dream of playing it at the moment, but I’m not too bothered about learning it now. The hardest piece I can play is the adagio of Moonlight and Chopin’s prelude in A major Op 28 with dodgy timing!

Well, I'm not in college yet, but the money situation is the same since I have to save now anyway.. I guess I hadn't thought of bi-weekly half hour lessons.. guess that's better than nothing, right? Maybe I'll look into something like that..

Good luck with the grade exam.. I'm sure I couldn't pass any of those levels because I only know 2 scales right now (I'm working on it) and can't sight read anything more than very simple songs.. It's taking me almost a week to get Bach's minuet down.. heh.

[cmg]

Hikky, I listened to your recording and was pleasantly surprised at how natural your beginner technique is.  A nice, relaxed, natural hand position.   Also, there's a natural musicianship to your playing.  Where you have difficulty is where the piece pushes beyond your technical development at this point.  (That's where we ALL have difficulty!)

My opinion is that your talent is sufficient enough to require an excellent teacher when you can afford one.  Yes, you can push ahead well enough on your own, but I think you have a gift here and an excellent teacher will save you hours and hours of useless practice and the learning of bad technical habits that can take a lifetime to overcome.

Good luck and keep practicing.

[hikky]

Hikky, I listened to your recording and was pleasantly surprised at how natural your beginner technique is.  A nice, relaxed, natural hand position.   Also, there's a natural musicianship to your playing.  Where you have difficulty is where the piece pushes beyond your technical development at this point.  (That's where we ALL have difficulty!)

My opinion is that your talent is sufficient enough to require an excellent teacher when you can afford one.  Yes, you can push ahead well enough on your own, but I think you have a gift here and an excellent teacher will save you hours and hours of useless practice and the learning of bad technical habits that can take a lifetime to overcome.

Good luck and keep practicing.

Hmm.. really? An excellent teacher? For an.. "excellent" wage I presume? 

I'm surprised to hear that, but does talent mean much at 17?  It seems everyone thinks this is pretty late to get into it if you want to be really good.. I mean, I want to be as good as I can, but money is just a real factor here.. I guess maybe I could afford half hour bi-weekly as was mentioned before.. where should one start looking for a teacher?

[cmg]

Hmm.. really? An excellent teacher? For an.. "excellent" wage I presume? 

I'm surprised to hear that, but does talent mean much at 17?  It seems everyone thinks this is pretty late to get into it if you want to be really good.. I mean, I want to be as good as I can, but money is just a real factor here.. I guess maybe I could afford half hour bi-weekly as was mentioned before.. where should one start looking for a teacher?

Sorry, hikky, if you want nothing but bargains and discounts in your life, you'll be sacrificing quality.  If you want excellence, you'll have to pay for it.  If you don't want excellence, then continue to teach yourself.  Your choice!

I'm not calling you a prodigy, just a young person with a natural gift regarding your approach to the keyboard.  You can become as accomplished at the instrument as you choose.  The "lateness of hour" is immaterial.   And if you're going to pay for lessons, pay for the best.  Anything less is a waste of your money.

Again, it's your life and your choice.  As for locating a good teacher, it's an obvious process.  Ask around.  Do "informational interviews" with musically educated people in your area.  Do some work.  It's just not going to be dropped on your doorstep.

[hikky]

Sorry, hikky, if you want nothing but bargains and discounts in your life, you'll be sacrificing quality.  If you want excellence, you'll have to pay for it.  If you don't want excellence, then continue to teach yourself.  Your choice!

Yeah, I know.. I guess I just have to choose here, and since It's probably ultimately unlikely that I'll be able to get good enough to be something like a concert pianist, I guess my choice would be either go cheap or get no lessons at all...

Well, everyone seems to think differently on this issue so it's hard to decide what's best.. IE, whether I should look for a teacher immediately or give it a while.. I want to wait a bit, but then I don't want to develop habits that will haunt me in the future.. are they really hard to unlearn?

Also, sorry to get off topic, but does the audition room want just high quality recordings? I think I want to re-record that fur elise.. I listened to it again and realized it was pretty bad, I can play the fast part well, when I'm just normally practicing.. I just tend to make a lot of mistakes when I'm trying not to make a lot of mistakes, like when someone's watching or I want to get it right for recording it. I know this isn't the place for performance critique but reading the stickies over there made it seem like it's meant for kind of high-quality performance I guess..

[general disarray]

Well, everyone seems to think differently on this issue so it's hard to decide what's best.. IE, whether I should look for a teacher immediately or give it a while.. I want to wait a bit, but then I don't want to develop habits that will haunt me in the future.. are they really hard to unlearn?

Also, sorry to get off topic, but does the audition room want just high quality recordings? I think I want to re-record that fur elise.. I listened to it again and realized it was pretty bad, I can play the fast part well, when I'm just normally practicing.. I just tend to make a lot of mistakes when I'm trying not to make a lot of mistakes, like when someone's watching or I want to get it right for recording it. I know this isn't the place for performance critique but reading the stickies over there made it seem like it's meant for kind of high-quality performance I guess..

Despite the differences of opinion, it's clear that anyone with any real ambition and direction needs a teacher.  Your ambivalence is your own problem.  My advice is get a teacher.  Your hesitancy is based on cheapness.  Economize on your discretionary spending or get a part-time job to cover your musical education expenses.  Your dilemma is not our concern.  If you don't want to raise money for lessons, then you clearly have no motivation to improve.  Please don't waste our time.

Regarding the Audition Room:  you'd probably be doing "nils" (the webmaster) and many, many others a service by not subjecting us to yet another performance of "Fur Elise."  It's new to you, but hackneyed to many others.  It's a piece most of us would rather not hear again during our natural or unnatural lives.  If you can't offer a performance that outshines Clara Schumann, then, please save it for yourself . . . or the teacher you are reluctant to pay for.

Thank you for your attention.  God knows we've given you enough of ours. 
 

[hikky]

Alright. I guess I'll try to get a teacher soon here (I'm moving in a month, so after that..). Thanks for all the help everyone.

Regarding the Audition Room:  you'd probably be doing "nils" (the webmaster) and many, many others a service by not subjecting us to yet another performance of "Fur Elise."  It's new to you, but hackneyed to many others.  If you can't offer a performance that outshines Clara Schumann, then, please save it for yourself . . . or the teacher you are reluctant to pay for.
 

Heh, sorry.. reading around I had started to realize it was almost something of a taboo around the internet piano community.. well, if I would have known that I would have started with a different song.. I'm getting tired of it myself just from practicing it over and over again... anyway, Fur Elise aside, the question still stands for future reference, when playing different songs.

[db05]

Hmm, thanks for this. I admittedly do not get along well with teachers, I never did. In school, in lessons, I never felt teachers were teaching me on an individual basis, and it caused a lot of problems. It's not because I'm arrogant, I just have a different way of learning than some people and it allows me to learn quickly if I do it right, and it's frustrating when someone tries to force me into a different way of learning.

Basically, in a teacher, I'd want someone who could just let me do my thing, maybe help by giving me a direction to go in, and correct my mistakes or bad habits. Are there teachers like that? I don't want someone who is going to tell me every song I have to play and everything I have to do and force their way of learning on me.

I believe the compatibility between teacher and student is underrated here, so I had to say it. I know you aren't arrogant. Aside from myself, I know of music students who do very well on their own, and only have lessons for formality. I believe your hesitance is not simply cheapness, but a real question of if coping with the burden of learning with someone is worth it.

Also, it's awkward for me to think of teachers as "useful" or "necessary" or "excellent", like a piece of merchandise. You can get great advice for free or for $100, but it's still great advice. My tip is not to go looking for a teacher like some sort of product, but a person, a friend you can talk to about music and beyond. IF you just want instruction on music, there are many instructional materials available; coping with the stress of meeting someone regularly isn't worth it imo.

I am not sure what "high quality playing" is for you, but I watched your video, it's as good as any Fur Elise I've heard played live by students. Plus the hands, bizarrely graceful hands, that's such a thing that can't be taught. What I call talent. (I would see my teacher play, she'd been studying since she was 6 but the movements seem so tense.  ) My only criticism is that it sounds so restrained. Might also be an effect of playing on a digital, but I'm sure it has something to do with the hands being too soft LOL. But hey, if that's your playing style... Just work on the contrasting sections. Like the dynamics... It's hard to explain, since I'm a beginner myself. 

Yes, the audition room doesn't like "overplayed", "beginner" pieces, and it is a good idea to post in Student's Corner if you're looking for advice without being discriminated against. In fact, I actually like Fur Elise, but being overplayed, it gets tiring, too.

[cmg]

I believe the compatibility between teacher and student is underrated here, so I had to say it. I know you aren't arrogant. Aside from myself, I know of music students who do very well on their own, and only have lessons for formality. I believe your hesitance is not simply cheapness, but a real question of if coping with the burden of learning with someone is worth it.

I don't think that's quite true that we underrate teacher/student compatibility here.  Teacher/student compatibility is what every "excellent" teacher has in mind when he or she accepts a student.  That's precisely what all of us are addressing when this original poster commented on his experience of having bad teachers. I don't doubt this.  But what he needs, if he wishes to be a "good" pianist and not just a amateurish keyboard banger,  is a teacher who will accept his individuality and encourage his experimentation -- unless it is stupidly counterproductive.  That's what we are referring to when we suggest he find a "good" teacher.

As for regarding teachers as "useful, necessary or excellent," doing so is hardly relegating them, as you state, to being like "a piece of merchandise."   They SHOULD be "useful."  They SHOULD be "excellent."  If they are these two things, then they BECOME  "necessary."  Teacher/student relationships need not necessarily be therapeutic relationships the student is seeking to mend his or her bad parental relationship or low self-esteem.  Such can be the case with an extraodinary teacher who is also very psychologically sophisticated.  But in the short span of lesson time, very little therapy can (or should) be conducted.  The student is there to learn in a supportive, respectful environment.  Becoming too enmeshed with a student's emotional issues is really rather inappropriate.  That's why we have friends and/or psychotherapists.  That's their job.  Music teachers are there primarily to teach music. 

And, finally, when students repeatedly have problems with teachers over the years, it is time for the student to consider his or her own issues and the very real possibility that his or her own behavior is creating these ongoing conflicts.  Perhaps the student is incapable of accepting criticism?  Perhaps the student has problems with authority figures stemming from a poor relationship with dictatorial, inflexible parents?   The teacher is not always to blame. 

[ryan2189]

Hello Hikky,

Hopefully I can offer some suggestions as well as criticisms regarding your situation. First of all, on the issue of money, there are other options that allow you to take lessons at a reduced rate. For a year before I went to university, I took my piano lessons at an music/art school that was geared for the community (not like a conservatory or anything). You could sign up for your instrument at any level and get placed with a teacher. When I did this, I went to the school for an interview in which we discussed my plans for piano and what I would like to get out of a teacher. After that, I was paired up with a teacher who I still talk to now. Granted I have a new teacher at the university conservatory, but every time I am back at home, I always visit and find her advice quite useful.

But for money, music schools like these also offer financial aid programs for students who may not necessarily be able to afford lessons in full. If I can recall correctly, the starting rate to begin with was something like $62-$64 per hour, and from that point, depending on your financial situation, you could get that rate appropriately reduced.

Now on another note. After a while I kept my teacher, but no longer worked financially through the music school. I would go to her house / studio close to the music school and take lessons only through her. There I learned that she offered a reduced rate specifically for college / near college students. Then I only had to pay $50 per hour. Small options like these are ones to consider. Teachers are people too, and some of them may cut you a bit of a break. I know that $50 is not cheap, but it also not ridiculous either. There is some truth in price of lessons, but that is also only to a degree.

I had a teacher when I was younger who gave hour lessons for $30, and she ended up being a bit loose in her teachings. That would be somewhat of an example of a teacher equivalent to her rates. But, hell, I remember my first teacher charged only $5 for a weekly half hour lesson. He was almost 90 years old, sharp as a whip, and asked for so little because he was no longer in it for the money. I wouldn't recommend this option as you get better, but for a beginner teacher he taught me a good amount of useful tools and techniques.

Okay so about the problem you see with being a self taught individual and problems you may have with a teacher in general. I would say that piano is already a drastically individual and solitary activity to begin with. I take hour lessons once a week, and other than that, I am practicing for hours by myself. You also talked about the issue of being nervous in from of your teacher. I remember being the same way, but you get used to it. You actually need to get used to it, or else the whole aspect of performing in from of one person, never mind a small/large audience will go out the window. The teacher is there for all the reasons people have stated in earlier posts. But the teacher is also a perfect guide. They will know the progress you have made, and when the right time will come when you have successfully learned a new technique, or successfully learned a piece to a good extent. A teacher will also offer you performance opportunities, ones that help another drastic component of playing- performing in front of others.

I understand where you are coming from though. I too tend to travel the path of self teaching. I like studying things on my own. In fact, I am also learning Japanese right now. I am taking classes, but because I will be studying abroad this summer, I am taking that extra step to learn other useful things that will benefit me while I'm there.

Oh and about you video that you posted. I know you asked what kind of things were noticeable in your performance. Well, I first noticed that you are playing very lightly. One important technique that is important especially in virtuosic playing is a firmness and tightness in your fingers (not wrists!). This will convey confidence in your playing, and produce a much better tone. You also have a bit of a flaring pinkie, but that should diminish with time I would think. Also, while I couldn't tell completely from the camera angle, it looked as though your left elbow was doing a sort of "out an away" motion- something that I actually had a problem with for a little while. When people lift their hand away from the keyboard, they tend to swing the elbow outward in what they think feels like a lift, but is really just a simulation / sensation of one. Try to be cautious of that.

I think that you are progressing quite nicely. One last thing to note as well. While these initial stages of learning may feel comfortable and fun, there will be a point where you may feel you have reached an upper bound. That is where the teacher really is necessary. They will help you to pass that bound and help you to raise the bar more. In fact, that teacher who charged $30 and hour got me to my limit with her, and then I realized that she really wasn't as great as I initially thought, because she couldn't help me progress anymore.

Wow that was long, hope that at least some of it was useful.

Ryan

[db05]

I don't think that's quite true that we underrate teacher/student compatibility here.  Teacher/student compatibility is what every "excellent" teacher has in mind when he or she accepts a student.  That's precisely what all of us are addressing when this original poster commented on his experience of having bad teachers. I don't doubt this. But what he needs, if he wishes to be a "good" pianist and not just a amateurish keyboard banger,  is a teacher who will accept his individuality and encourage his experimentation -- unless it is stupidly counterproductive.  That's what we are referring to when we suggest he find a "good" teacher.

As for regarding teachers as "useful, necessary or excellent," doing so is hardly relegating them, as you state, to being like "a piece of merchandise."   They SHOULD be "useful."  They SHOULD be "excellent."  If they are these two things, then they BECOME  "necessary."  Teacher/student relationships need not necessarily be therapeutic relationships the student is seeking to mend his or her bad parental relationship or low self-esteem.  Such can be the case with an extraodinary teacher who is also very psychologically sophisticated.  But in the short span of lesson time, very little therapy can (or should) be conducted.  The student is there to learn in a supportive, respectful environment.  Becoming too enmeshed with a student's emotional issues is really rather inappropriate.  That's why we have friends and/or psychotherapists.  That's their job.  Music teachers are there primarily to teach music. 

And, finally, when students repeatedly have problems with teachers over the years, it is time for the student to consider his or her own issues and the very real possibility that his or her own behavior is creating these ongoing conflicts.  Perhaps the student is incapable of accepting criticism?  Perhaps the student has problems with authority figures stemming from a poor relationship with dictatorial, inflexible parents?   The teacher is not always to blame. 

If a student sees a teacher as a teacher and therefore as "useful, necessary or excellent" and chooses one for those "traits", he has to deal with those personal issues by himself and treat music learning as a piece of work (or fun) completely detached from life. And I agree, it works for most people, for most things. I had several teachers at (academic) school who were nothing more than teachers. I pay tuition, you teach me, that's it. And some were pretty good.

But for music, I wouldn't dream of working like that.

If the teacher/student compatibility is not being underrated here, then maybe it's just the sort of individuality the particular student has. I mean, how can someone accept another's individuality and give a supportive environment if you don't know the person? Without some level of personal relationship, how can you teach someone with a different learning style and special needs? Even if we find an excellent teacher, how sure are we that the student will benefit as much as others under him? It might not be as good. At worst, it might be the exact opposite. And the student ends up blaming his lack of talent or work, not knowing that it was something else that was lacking. I admit that it's also the student's job to make the best of the relationship. But the first thing is to know that the problem does exist.

Besides, teachers are still people.  LOL, didn't mean to argue with someone here... it might just be my way of showing my appreciation. It's a job unlike any other.

[hikky]

Thanks ryan for the long and informative post.

I'm still thinking I'll give it a month or two to get in the habit and get comfortable with playing and practicing piano every day and then look for a teacher.

For the meantime, sorry to ask another question, but do you guys think it's best to work on easy or difficult songs? It seems like you might not progress as much by doing easy songs so I'm not sure.. so far I'm learning songs that I can get down reasonably well in about a week (Basically just level 2-3 on this site's sheet music), is that a pretty good pace? Could I be doing harder pieces and not learn any weird habits in trying to compensate for my lack of technique? Or should I just be focusing on basics like scales in the meantime until I get a teacher?

[general disarray]

For the meantime, sorry to ask another question, but do you guys think it's best to work on easy or difficult songs? It seems like you might not progress as much by doing easy songs so I'm not sure.. so far I'm learning songs that I can get down reasonably well in about a week (Basically just level 2-3 on this site's sheet music), is that a pretty good pace? Could I be doing harder pieces and not learn any weird habits in trying to compensate for my lack of technique? Or should I just be focusing on basics like scales in the meantime until I get a teacher?

Are you aware of the irony at play here in your posts?  The subject of your thread is "Are teachers absolutely necessary?" and all you are doing is asking for free teaching advice from this forum -- people who don't know you or your ability -- instead of a private and paid teacher.

Turning others here into your free teachers is proving the point that, yes, you absolutely need a teacher.

Your real issue seems to be, as I mentioned before, your reluctance to part with your money to actually pay a teacher for his or her services.

As to guarantees regarding the selection of the "perfect" teacher for you, there are none.  For any of us.  You have to audition teachers until you find the correct match.  Sorry.  But that's life.

[richard black]

Look, to be brutally blunt your chances of becoming a concert pianist in any sense of the term are effectively zero. I can't remember meeting, hearing about, reading about etc. etc. a single concert artist ever who started the piano that late - almost all started before the age of 10. If you were to practice like a demon for five years (with or without a teacher, though having one would increase the probability of doing it right in the first place - from that video you seem to have a decent hand position at least) you may get to the sort of standard where you could give the odd semi-pro gig as a soloist or accompanist, or get into music college for a course where playing the piano is essential or highly recommended, say conducting or something like that. If you can't afford a teacher, load up with books of studies and get working. Good luck!

[cmg]

If a student sees a teacher as a teacher and therefore as "useful, necessary or excellent" and chooses one for those "traits", he has to deal with those personal issues by himself and treat music learning as a piece of work (or fun) completely detached from life. And I agree, it works for most people, for most things. I had several teachers at (academic) school who were nothing more than teachers. I pay tuition, you teach me, that's it. And some were pretty good.

But for music, I wouldn't dream of working like that.

If the teacher/student compatibility is not being underrated here, then maybe it's just the sort of individuality the particular student has. I mean, how can someone accept another's individuality and give a supportive environment if you don't know the person? Without some level of personal relationship, how can you teach someone with a different learning style and special needs? Even if we find an excellent teacher, how sure are we that the student will benefit as much as others under him? It might not be as good. At worst, it might be the exact opposite. And the student ends up blaming his lack of talent or work, not knowing that it was something else that was lacking. I admit that it's also the student's job to make the best of the relationship. But the first thing is to know that the problem does exist.

Besides, teachers are still people.  LOL, didn't mean to argue with someone here... it might just be my way of showing my appreciation. It's a job unlike any other.

Honestly, I have no idea on earth what you are going on about here. 

A good teacher can intuit enough about a student's "individuality" by observation and listening during a series of lessons.  Are you suggesting that teachers must involve themselves in weekend encounter groups with students to listen to their every pining, sighing, self-indulgent yearning to KNOW this student?

You keep insisting that a teacher must "know the student" before they can be a real teacher to that student.  What, in the name of all that is holy, are you suggesting?  A romantic relationship?  A mommy or daddy relationship?  A buddy relationship?

Teaching requires compassion and intelligence and skills within a one-on-one situation that DEMANDS good, healthy boundaries.  I know you would deny you're suggesting otherwise, but you, indeed, are.

In fact, all of you people arrogantly claiming to be "auto-didactic" are anything but.  You're hanging out on forums like this, professing your superiority or disdain or both for teachers, YET petitioning total strangers here for help -- from everything to scale playing to remedies for depression.

Frankly, this thread is working my last nerve.  Take up the tuba and leave us all alone. 

[hikky]

Are you aware of the irony at play here in your posts?  The subject of your thread is "Are teachers absolutely necessary?" and all you are doing is asking for free teaching advice from this forum -- people who don't know you or your ability -- instead of a private and paid teacher.

Turning others here into your free teachers is proving the point that, yes, you absolutely need a teacher.

Your real issue seems to be, as I mentioned before, your reluctance to part with your money to actually pay a teacher for his or her services.

As to guarantees regarding the selection of the "perfect" teacher for you, there are none.  For any of us.  You have to audition teachers until you find the correct match.  Sorry.  But that's life.

What? Free teachers? Since when is asking a fairly general question to whoever wants to answer it turning people into "free teachers"? I was under the impression that a teacher sets up a curriculum in order to guide a pupil's improvement. I'm simply asking a question to try and avoid mistakes in my self study. I assumed it would be obvious that the intended question is "Can you become good with mostly self-guided study", I certainly didn't intend to ask "Can you become good with no input or feedback from anyone else at all?" I help plenty of people with plenty of things on the internet, and I ask questions on the internet. If it was really that big of a problem (And the effort it takes to answer a question is significantly less than the effort it takes to lecture me on hypocrisy). I even acknowledged the fact that it was an imposition on my part; what, do you want a discussion about studying with or without teachers to be strictly void of any talk about proper and incorrect methods?

As for "reluctance to part with money".. you say it like I just would rather spend my money on other luxuries.. as I've stated, I have to be saving that money to ease the debt I'll be facing after college. I don't have a cell phone or a car or other things like that for the same reason. I don't have the choice to pour large amounts of money into piano lessons because:

Look, to be brutally blunt your chances of becoming a concert pianist in any sense of the term are effectively zero.

(Which, don't worry, I already know).

In fact, all of you people arrogantly claiming to be "auto-didactic" are anything but.  You're hanging out on forums like this, professing your superiority or disdain or both for teachers, YET petitioning total strangers here for help -- from everything to scale playing to remedies for depression.

Aside from hanging out on forums like these, I'm practicing 4 hours per day to try to make up for starting so late. Sorry, tuba isn't a goal of mine. I very much appreciate those who helped out in this topic and have already said I've reached a conclusion on what to do, but people keep finding things to discuss so I naturally reply.

I'm not trying to get on peoples' nerves here, but sorry, not everyone has the option of getting an elite teacher for hours per week. I'm not trying to be a hypocrite by inquiring on general principals for self study, but I would like to avoid shooting myself in the foot if possible.

[general disarray]

Hmm, thanks for this. I admittedly do not get along well with teachers, I never did. In school, in lessons, I never felt teachers were teaching me on an individual basis, and it caused a lot of problems. It's not because I'm arrogant, I just have a different way of learning than some people and it allows me to learn quickly if I do it right, and it's frustrating when someone tries to force me into a different way of learning.

Basically, in a teacher, I'd want someone who could just let me do my thing, maybe help by giving me a direction to go in, and correct my mistakes or bad habits. Are there teachers like that? I don't want someone who is going to tell me every song I have to play and everything I have to do and force their way of learning on me.

Okay, here's your sophomoric approach to teaching.  You want someone who will "let you do my thing."  (That, by the way, is VERY 1960's of you.)  And, you assert, after stating you intend to do your own thing, that the teacher will  " . . . maybe help by giving me a direction to go in, and correct my mistakes or bad habits.  Are there teachers like that?"  Then, you, a 17-year-old rank beginner, arrogantly state that you ". . . don't want someone who is going to tell me every song I have to play and everything I have to do and force their way of learning on me."

Are you even remotely aware of the double-bind you put your teachers in?  You want "to do your own thing," but you want your teachers to "correct my mistakes or bad habits," BUT you " . . . don't want someone who is going to tell me every song I have to play and everything I have to do and force their way of learning on me."

Are you so self-centered that you're not aware of the arrogance of this position?  Are you so arrogant that you -- a 17-year-old beginner -- think you have the answers to your own piano curriculum?

You evidently do.  That's why you've elected homeschooling.  What teacher could possibly deal, in essence, with your egotistical refusal to be taught? 

Good luck.  You'll need it.

[general disarray]

What? Free teachers? Since when is asking a fairly general question to whoever wants to answer it turning people into "free teachers"? I was under the impression that a teacher sets up a curriculum in order to guide a pupil's improvement. I'm simply asking a question to try and avoid mistakes in my self study. I assumed it would be obvious that the intended question is "Can you become good with mostly self-guided study", I certainly didn't intend to ask "Can you become good with no input or feedback from anyone else at all?"

Are you joking?  You, the person who chastised K for manipulating you with "semantics" farther north in this thread?  So, a teacher, according to you, is only that person who "sets up a curriculum in order to guide a pupil's improvement"?  No, the definition of a teacher is broader and more refined than this and you know it.  It is anyone with expertise who offers you advice and corrections.  You are seeking teachers in every question you pose to serve your needs on this forum.  Yet, you feel teachers only inhibit your natural talents.  Make up your mind.

Furthermore, K asked you to define "good" (as in your statement "can you become GOOD with no input or feedback from anyone else at all" [your quote] and you managed to take offense at her challenge.

You want it both ways.  You KNOW you won't improve without "teachers" yet you insist self-study is sufficient to your ends.  Fine.  But, don't ask other pianists for advice on your next step in studying, if you have no respect or need for "teachers."

[db05]

I'm not trying to get on peoples' nerves here, but sorry, not everyone has the option of getting an elite teacher for hours per week. I'm not trying to be a hypocrite by inquiring on general principals for self study, but I would like to avoid shooting myself in the foot if possible.

Relax, hikky, I believe cmg is pissed with me and not necessarily you. But general disarray seems seems to have condemned you as an arrogant person. I don't think you are; I think you are very much like me and some of my student friends. Please confirm if I am correct about your personality.

---

Honestly, I have no idea on earth what you are going on about here. 

You keep insisting that a teacher must "know the student" before they can be a real teacher to that student.  What, in the name of all that is holy, are you suggesting?  A romantic relationship?  A mommy or daddy relationship?  A buddy relationship?

In fact, all of you people arrogantly claiming to be "auto-didactic" are anything but.  You're hanging out on forums like this, professing your superiority or disdain or both for teachers, YET petitioning total strangers here for help -- from everything to scale playing to remedies for depression.

Frankly, this thread is working my last nerve.  Take up the tuba and leave us all alone. 

cmg,

I'll try to keep it short since you seem mad at me. 

Thank you for being honest. You don't understand me, which part of my point. If (someone like) you were my teacher, and we met regularly would you understand me? I doubt it.

More like a friendly "buddy" relationship.

Sorry, I am not trying to be arrogant here. I don't mean to put on airs or anything, and I don't even know what "auto-didactic" means.  How hard it is to be misunderstood!! Maybe I should save my mind and fingers for playing the piano instead of talking to people (here or real life), it is most tiring and stressful for (people like) me.

I cannot find a tuba teacher, or even a music shop with tubas available...

---

PS. (some thoughts)

People don't know just how difficult this is. To talk with people who don't understand me. And I don't understand them.

There is a certain member of the forum whom I look up to, a very kind and knowledgeable one... Now I am forbidden to talk to this person, for reasons I can barely put into words. I am not saying it's not my fault. It's hard to explain and I don't know how I'll ever be able to fix myself and be good enough for this person. I had spent weeks thinking about it, until I was frustrated out of my wits and had to take some time out from thinking.

The reason I'm saying it here right now, is because it was just like the time when I was frustrated with my music lessons... I said to my teacher - What do you expect me to do? Write you a symphony?  -

A person, a teacher or someone in authority asks me to do something, and I can only try my best. But that is never ever good enough for them. I can only do what I can, and say what I know. I am not screwing with you people, I don't have the guts to do so, and I am not pretending to be someone I'm not.

A person wants me to show gratitude or respect, but there are many ways to do so. I show my gratitude and my respect in different ways than most, and end up offending this person. I don't mean to. I never did. And if that's people's impression of me here, I'm sorry. I'm really very sorry.

[cmg]

cmg,

I'll try to keep it short since you seem mad at me. 

Thank you for being honest. You don't understand me, which part of my point. If (someone like) you were my teacher, and we met regularly would you understand me? I doubt it.

More like a friendly "buddy" relationship.

Sorry, I am not trying to be arrogant here. I don't mean to put on airs or anything, and I don't even know what "auto-didactic" means.  How hard it is to be misunderstood!! Maybe I should save my mind and fingers for playing the piano instead of talking to people (here or real life), it is most tiring and stressful for (people like) me.

I cannot find a tuba teacher, or even a music shop with tubas available...

---

PS. (some thoughts)

People don't know just how difficult this is. To talk with people who don't understand me. And I don't understand them.

There is a certain member of the forum whom I look up to, a very kind and knowledgeable one... Now I am forbidden to talk to this person, for reasons I can barely put into words. I am not saying it's not my fault. It's hard to explain and I don't know how I'll ever be able to fix myself and be good enough for this person. I had spent weeks thinking about it, until I was frustrated out of my wits and had to take some time out from thinking.

The reason I'm saying it here right now, is because it was just like the time when I was frustrated with my music lessons... I said to my teacher - What do you expect me to do? Write you a symphony?  -

A person, a teacher or someone in authority asks me to do something, and I can only try my best. But that is never ever good enough for them. I can only do what I can, and say what I know. I am not screwing with you people, I don't have the guts to do so, and I am not pretending to be someone I'm not.

A person wants me to show gratitude or respect, but there are many ways to do so. I show my gratitude and my respect in different ways than most, and end up offending this person. I don't mean to. I never did. And if that's people's impression of me here, I'm sorry. I'm really very sorry.

db05,

Why are you so unreachable?  I have the greatest respect for your intelligence.  But, you are so unreachable.  Why do you put yourself in a position of subordination?  I don't see you that way.  I see a bright, attractive, cultivated young lady with the potential to have the most fulfilled life imaginable.  The problem is that YOU don't see that.

I am a pianist and a psychoanalyst.  If you were my student, I'd be honored.  I know you can't imagine that, but it's so.  In my private practice in NYC, my specialty is performance anxiety and depression.  I work with actors and musicians, mainly.  Motion pictures and theatre.  My goal is to empower them.  If i worked with you, I would endeavor to do the same.  I have never failed to help my patients.  All I ask is that they be open enough to understand that their low self-esteem is the result of parental and cultural influences.  Once that is grasped, they are open to bloom.

Young women are most oppressed in cultures throughout this world.  It's a tragedy, because women are men's equal.

If I were your teacher or analyst, I'd only expect you to be authentically YOU.  That would be more than enough.  That would be more than enough for you to blossom and succeed.

I know you have this potential.  I'm never angry at you.  Only at your lack at of self-esteem. 

[hyrst]

DB05, I think you have put this VERY well - well done.  It is a shame if it cost you some confidence to say things you have needed to say around here.

People have been way harsh on Hikky.  Maybe he has some growing up to do, but I know I am not perfect and I'm way past 17 now.  What maturity judges somebody they don't even know, also?  So many harsh assumptions made about why he was asking questions.  Some people sound way cynical about the intentions of others here.

Maybe Hikky started out trying to think the question through, hoping he would be OK working by himself but worried.  Posts here might have led him to be even more concerned that he might do the wrong thing working by himself - even though he is nervous about feeling somebody else would completely understand his needs and mental processes.  Perhaps that is why he then asked for comments and reassurance.  It sounds like he genuinely wants to learn but feels like it is kind of difficult and unreliable doing it all alone, since he cannot afford a teacher.  Maybe he was seeking the reassurance that he could do things acceptably by himself despite his circumstances.  

It troubles me that some people here can be so callous and pointed.  If I was Hikky, and sincerely seeking reassurance, this thread would have done a lot to undermine my confidence even more.  That is why I make these comments - I don't want to debate things.  I just want him to have the courage, despite what people say, and to believe that there are people who will understand and work with him when he is able and ready.

[cmg]

People have been way harsh on Hikky.  

Maybe Hikky started out trying to think the question through, hoping he would be OK working by himself but worried.  Posts here might have led him to be even more concerned that he might do the wrong thing working by himself - even though he is nervous about feeling somebody else would completely understand his needs and mental processes.  Perhaps that is why he then asked for comments and reassurance.  It sounds like he genuinely wants to learn but feels like it is kind of difficult and unreliable doing it all alone, since he cannot afford a teacher.  Maybe he was seeking the reassurance that he could do things acceptably by himself despite his circumstances.  

It troubles me that some people here can be so callous and pointed.  

I think you are being unfair to hikky's "critics."  Hikky has been able to raise the money for a digital piano and has the time to practice "four hours" daily.  Why can't he get a part-time job to pay for piano lessons?  He's 17.  Not 7.  He CAN afford a teacher if he chooses to work to get the income for a teacher.  I spent my adolescence balancing prep school work that led to an academic career at Yale while engaging in a part-time job at a local bakery.  PLUS practicing and taking (and paying for) piano lessons.

Why do you consider this assessment so harsh?  Why are you buying into this generation's sense of self-entitlement? 

[general disarray]

I think you are being unfair to hikky's "critics."  Hikky has been able to raise the money for a digital piano and has the time to practice "four hours" daily.  Why can't he get a part-time job to pay for piano lessons?  He's 17.  Not 7.  He CAN afford a teacher if he chooses to work to get the income for a teacher.  I spent my adolescence balancing prep school work that led to an academic career at Yale while engaging in a part-time job at a local bakery.  PLUS practicing and taking (and paying for) piano lessons.

Why do you consider this assessment so harsh?  Why are you buying into this generation's sense of self-entitlement? 

Thanks, cmg.  I can relate to your hard work.  I was nine when my parents divorced and remarried and I found myself bouncing between NYC and the South Pacific after their remarriages.

I learned pretty early on that I had to find my own way.  And I did.  Yeh, they paid for prep school and college, but not my expenses, which included piano lessons and stuff like that.  I did odd jobs from Starbucks to waiting tables.  Since college, I've been on my own.  My last job, since graduation, has been tutoring two rich kids on their parents' yacht.  I did it to save money for grad school.  My goal is to get a masters then a DMA in piano. 

No one is helping me.   

[hyrst]

I  hear your point, but I don't think it is necessarily that simple.  It is appropriate, and maybe somthing he should be thinking about.  Just consider that he is working through a process or he wouldn't have asked questions here.  Some very intense things have been said, quite judgemental sounding to me, that I believe were not warranted.

Maybe I do buy into the youth's sense of self-entitlement, but maybe that way of being is simply part of growing up and not some issue to be labelled.  A 17 year old with no responsibilities beyond themselves is not going to be as aware of the need to work and sacrifice as you would expect of a far older person who has raised a family and committed to a job even during those times when you really don't want to.  That doesn't make their point of view right, but it does warrant more tolerance.

Besides, it isn't as easy as needing a job so you go out and get one - not even for a young person who would work anywhere.  People with much experience are being made redundant.  My son, similar age to Hikky, has been looking for work for several months.  His  friend used an employment agency and it took 9 months to even get a position stocking shelves in a super-market.  Our young people don't necessarily have plenty of opportunities laid out before them like we would presume - I certainly expected my son to get a retail job straight away.  It isn't an excuse to not try - but they are in a social context that is rather stressed.

I do hear how you have worked hard to get to where you are - you're not alone here.  I also have raised a family alone (no husband), while studying a bachelor and masters degrees, and trying to get furniture and some comforts for my own children (we had literally nothing when they were preschoolers, no home, no bed, nothing).  All of this time on very little income.  I can finally afford to have lessons and it is a great privilege to do so.  My life is very different now and I am a well-established teacher.  It hasn't been like this forever, though, it has taken a long time and a lot of sacrifice.

[db05]

db05,

Why are you so unreachable?  I have the greatest respect for your intelligence.  But, you are so unreachable.  Why do you put yourself in a position of subordination?  I don't see you that way.  I see a bright, attractive, cultivated young lady with the potential to have the most fulfilled life imaginable.  The problem is that YOU don't see that.

I am a pianist and a psychoanalyst.  If you were my student, I'd be honored. ...
If I were your teacher or analyst, I'd only expect you to be authentically YOU.  That would be more than enough.  That would be more than enough for you to blossom and succeed.

I know you have this potential.  I'm never angry at you.  Only at your lack of self-esteem. 

I take your word for it, but why the sudden change of heart?  
Quite confusing, your question. You should know better than anyone here but you're asking why I'm unreachable. I don't know, why are you (and everyone else) so unreachable?

My (lack of) self-esteem is the result of all my experiences through the years as a student, and an individual. That would take a whole thread in itself.

DB05, I think you have put this VERY well - well done.  It is a shame if it cost you some confidence to say things you have needed to say around here.

People have been way harsh on Hikky.  Maybe he has some growing up to do, but I know I am not perfect and I'm way past 17 now.  What maturity judges somebody they don't even know, also?  So many harsh assumptions made about why he was asking questions.  Some people sound way cynical about the intentions of others here.

I appreciate it, but I think we'd be straying too far from the topic if you start arguing. It's partially my fault, also. We just have to accept that people on here have different opinions. Anyway, the OP said he's decided on something already.

Sorry if I took things waaaaaaay off course.