post-1894 wondering thread

[gerryjay]

hi, there. first and foremost, happy new year!

i was playing brahms' opus 119 another day, and wondering how beautiful and meaningful that music is. furthermore, the high opus' klavierstücke are technically the sum of brahms' pianistic style, and - in many ways - a sum of what we can call piano until his days. i don't want here to tell about the old "three great bs", but it makes sense and what i thought is directly related to that: what if there was no piano before 1894?

the first thing that came out of my mind was the impact on the way we learn piano, and the way we learn to conceive it. bach, mozart, beethoven, chopin, schumann, brahms, liszt: what if we couldn't use their music anymore?

the traditional and standard mix of pieces often includes a bach work, a classical sonata (normally beethoven), some character pieces (chopin and brahms a must), and some virtuosic display (chopin and liszt studies). what 20th century works could replace that?

so, that is what i'm thinking about: how to conceive well-rounded and balanced didactic syllabuses and programs (from beginner to advanced) using only 20th century languages? what pieces really should be played? what sonatas could compare to beethoven ones? what fugues (or imitative works) could replace bach in the process of acquiring counterpoint related skills?

sorry for so many questions, but i think it's a very definite question above all, it's just difficult to me to explain it clearly with my poor english (and my lazy brain  ).

thanks for any comments and insights.
best!

[Petter]

Maybe Bartok - Mikrokosmos and Kabalevsky pieces as student reference. Alot more fun the Burgmuller or Czerny. I don´t think I´d mourn the piano music pre 1894 all that much except Schuberts character pieces and those particular pieces you mentioned. Of course Bach, but that´s not piano music. =). As bravurpieces you could select some transcription of Art Tatum perhaps.

[mikey6]

So you're wondering what a balanced C20th program would be?
Or what influences 'older' writing has had on C20th?

There's clear Baroque influence in Bartok.
Classical 'purity' I guess in Ravel, classical forms and wit in Prokofiev
Romantacism in early Scriabin, early Schoenberg, Rachmaninov, Strauss etc.

Am I totally off the mark?

[gerryjay]

Maybe Bartok - Mikrokosmos and Kabalevsky pieces as student reference.

bartok is the quintessential didactic composer to me. what he achieved with the mikrokosmos is absolutely amazing.
kabalevsky is fun as well, and make me think of several easy collections from russian composers that are masterpieces, eg, stravinsky's les cinq doigts or shostakovich easier works.

As bravurpieces you could select some transcription of Art Tatum perhaps.

i didn't think about jazz music, but you're right: since we play salon music from the 19th century as concert pieces, jazz must be included as a possibility.

best!

[gerryjay]

So you're wondering what a balanced C20th program would be?
Or what influences 'older' writing has had on C20th?

There's clear Baroque influence in Bartok.
Classical 'purity' I guess in Ravel, classical forms and wit in Prokofiev
Romantacism in early Scriabin, early Schoenberg, Rachmaninov, Strauss etc.

Am I totally off the mark?

dear mikey:
my idea includes both notions, but i wasn't think in the terms you put. i was mainly thinking about relations such as "everybody plays the sonata by beethoven. which works could replace that?".

however, your reasoning is of great value. let me take only your first selection: baroque influence. and then, let me explode the notion: what we traditionally learn from baroque music? we can think about technical resources, textures, compositional techniques, emotional context...well, the list is very long, and it's interesting you add to my previous one a complete new path to think about. thank you, btw.

best!

[gerryjay]

ps: you are very right about the "classical purity" (that we talk about so often in mozart, did i get the idea?) in ravel (and debussy for that matter) music. although they did not composed sonatas, in any other aspects they are tremendously related to the old master: clarity of writing, specific use of piano resources, absolutely clear phrasing, the genius for melody writing, and so on. yes, yes: i'm a huge fan of their music...