Small uncomfortable passage.

[allemande]

Okay, I'm having some trouble on a small passage and I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.

I uploaded a small passage where in the right hand the thumb (1) sings a voice: (D-Eb-F- -Eb-F-G), while the pinky (5) and ring finger (4) play another voice.

In my score I have the fingering for that small melodic line to be played all with the thumb (1), like the score I uploaded, but my teacher insists on me playing it legato by playing the notes with my index finger first then switching to my thumb (2-1) because she says it will help stretch out my hand a bit.

I don't mean to say it's impossible, and the finger switch is all too common, but it's just a tad uncomfortable here given the distance, or the Eb, who knows.

Anyone wanna try and give me their opinion? I've put in red the fingering that i'm supposed to do, while the original fingering in the one on the score

Oh by the way, it's in Eb Major, so B, E, and A are flat

[gerryjay]

dear allemande:
we have two separate discussions here.

fingering is a very personal issue, and know what is better for you is something that only you can do. however, for many years, listening to your teacher's suggestions (although sometimes they may seem only more difficult) is a good procedure, for the simple reason that fingering possibilities in piano playing are an almost endless thread.

in that case, what i want to say is: stick your teacher advice, because it's good.

that said, let's try to solve you problem. when you can't manage something in its entirety, the best solution (also the most obvious one) is to reduce the task. in this segment, it must be done in two different ways: horizontally (playing one voice at a time), and vertically (playing the simultaneous attacks).

for the first task, focus in the proper fingering and then in the articulation (provided that you are playing the right notes and rhythm). in the bottom line (the one with the 21 changes), create a complete legato. alone, it's easy, isn't it? then, try the upper voice alone, and find the best phrasing you can to it.

for the second task, play the octave d-d (1-5), then play eb-d (2-5), and then (while holding the upper d with your 5) switch the finger that holds the lower note (2 to 1). the thing is: play that as slow as you need to feel confortable with. btw, feel your fingers depressing each key, and how does it feel when you hold it down.

(well, your teacher can help you a lot in this second task).

a good idea would be playing only the upper voice with the LH part.

best!

[hyrst]

I agree with Gerry's recommendations.

I just want to empathise with you.  It can take time to figure some things out.  My teacher chose a Beethoven Sonata for me that I would not have played because the chords are so large and I can only reach an octave.  I was practicing very hard and almost in tears ready to pound something, I was so frustrated with the piece and annoyed at my teacher for choosing this piece - although she has wanted me to broaden my hand and play more chords because I am too limited.  Anyway, I was following the fingering in the score because this was the only way to create legato without pedal.  When I got to the lesson, my teacher was shocked and asked why I was using such fingering and that nobody did this, they use pedal.  Anyway, I went home and tried practicing it by breaking the voice.  I then found I could play the passage.  HOWEVER, I began learning the original fingering and I didn't realise how instilled it had become even though I could not yet achieve it.  After another few weeks practice, I am finding that I can almost reach the chords without mis-strikes and that the most fluent and efficient fingering was that which was written.  Yet, what my teacher's approach taught me was that I was concentrating on making the notes smooth which was leading me to stay too low in the keys and not rest my hand.  My solution ended up being half-way between the score and my teacher's advice - most of the fingering in the score, but relying on pedal for some of the legato. 

So, listen to your teacher even if it is not ultimately the best way for you - it will teach you something important.  Also, after a period of time and exercise you might be surprised what you can reach.  I have experienced this with Bach especially - but other situations too.  However, there is a physical limit - I could not do the fingering in your piece on the lowest 2-1s - but don't give up and decide on that limit too soon. 

[gerryjay]

Also, after a period of time and exercise you might be surprised what you can reach.  I have experienced this with Bach especially - but other situations too. 

dear hyrst:
i can't remember now who said once: "it doesn't matter how do you play. you can use you nose if it sounds ok." (or something like that, too lazy too look for  )
anyway, the kind of exploration you describe and this surprise you refer are vital to our piano development. trying something "impossible" force us to try anything, and to learn ways we don't even suspect that existed. btw, i agree very much about how often it happens with bach. the first time i tried a three-part invention i almost quit piano playing. and my first four-voice rendering was basically orgastic.

of course, there are limits for my reasoning, which could lead one directly to tackle liszt's sonata...

best!

[quantum]

Allemande,

I think we should also consider the final tempo of the piece.  Fingerings suitable for slow tempi don't always work in faster ones.  Also could you describe the character of the piece?

If it indeed it was a brisk allegro or presto, I would be inclined to do 1-1-1  as small breaks in legato such as notated are negligible.  As well, too many finger crossings and substitutions in fast passages lead to fatigue. 

If the piece is a bit slower, I could see your teachers fingering working.  I would also consider 1-2-1 in the lower voice to simplify movement, provided you are comfortable with the 2 - 4 in that interval. 

There is also a pedaling solution, it involves adding a very quick pedal starting a 16th before the strong beat, then releasing after playing the chord on the strong beat.  Only a light touch is needed on the pedal, not all the way down. 

[gerryjay]

I think we should also consider the final tempo of the piece.  Fingerings suitable for slow tempi don't always work in faster ones.  Also could you describe the character of the piece?

If it indeed it was a brisk allegro or presto, I would be inclined to do 1-1-1  as small breaks in legato such as notated are negligible.  As well, too many finger crossings and substitutions in fast passages lead to fatigue. 

dear quantum:
very true, and very important. i don't know why i did assume a slow tempo for it (perhaps due to the red marking), but you are right: in a fast tempo, using only 1 with a slight pedal is the call.
best!

[allemande]

Well, forgive my late answer. I did read all of your responses and took into consideration what all of you had to say. I didn’t respond immediately to allow myself some time to resolve the issue and learn something from it.

dear allemande:
we have two separate discussions here.

fingering is a very personal issue, and know what is better for you is something that only you can do. however, for many years, listening to your teacher's suggestions (although sometimes they may seem only more difficult) is a good procedure, for the simple reason that fingering possibilities in piano playing are an almost endless thread.

in that case, what i want to say is: stick your teacher advice, because it's good.

that said, let's try to solve you problem. when you can't manage something in its entirety, the best solution (also the most obvious one) is to reduce the task. in this segment, it must be done in two different ways: horizontally (playing one voice at a time), and vertically (playing the simultaneous attacks).

for the first task, focus in the proper fingering and then in the articulation (provided that you are playing the right notes and rhythm). in the bottom line (the one with the 21 changes), create a complete legato. alone, it's easy, isn't it? then, try the upper voice alone, and find the best phrasing you can to it.

for the second task, play the octave d-d (1-5), then play eb-d (2-5), and then (while holding the upper d with your 5) switch the finger that holds the lower note (2 to 1). the thing is: play that as slow as you need to feel confortable with. btw, feel your fingers depressing each key, and how does it feel when you hold it down.

(well, your teacher can help you a lot in this second task).

a good idea would be playing only the upper voice with the LH part.

best!

First, every time I speak with my teacher about the fingering of a certain passage she repeats the same thing “fingering is something very personal”, which little by little starts giving me the confidence to defy some fingerings in scores and trust my personal feeling of commodity in using certain fingering. Of course she helps me if i ask, but in the end it’s about feeling comfortable, and if an immediate answer to comfort isn’t possible, there are ways to resolve this through a proper technique.

I did do as she said and I studied that passage with the fingering shown in red.

I agree with Gerry's recommendations.

I just want to empathise with you.  It can take time to figure some things out.  My teacher chose a Beethoven Sonata for me that I would not have played because the chords are so large and I can only reach an octave.  I was practicing very hard and almost in tears ready to pound something, I was so frustrated with the piece and annoyed at my teacher for choosing this piece - although she has wanted me to broaden my hand and play more chords because I am too limited.  Anyway, I was following the fingering in the score because this was the only way to create legato without pedal.  When I got to the lesson, my teacher was shocked and asked why I was using such fingering and that nobody did this, they use pedal.  Anyway, I went home and tried practicing it by breaking the voice.  I then found I could play the passage.  HOWEVER, I began learning the original fingering and I didn't realise how instilled it had become even though I could not yet achieve it.  After another few weeks practice, I am finding that I can almost reach the chords without mis-strikes and that the most fluent and efficient fingering was that which was written.  Yet, what my teacher's approach taught me was that I was concentrating on making the notes smooth which was leading me to stay too low in the keys and not rest my hand.  My solution ended up being half-way between the score and my teacher's advice - most of the fingering in the score, but relying on pedal for some of the legato. 

So, listen to your teacher even if it is not ultimately the best way for you - it will teach you something important.  Also, after a period of time and exercise you might be surprised what you can reach.  I have experienced this with Bach especially - but other situations too.  However, there is a physical limit - I could not do the fingering in your piece on the lowest 2-1s - but don't give up and decide on that limit too soon. 

I can completely relate to you. In fact, for me, every time my teacher and I choose a new piece to work on there’s a period in the beginning where I begin learning it, making and correcting mistakes and so on..that everything seems unfamiliar to me and hard. Even a simple descending scale seems unknown, and every time this process is like learning to play the piano once again, with a new piece. It is worth noticing what you said earlier, that once overcome these difficulties on fingering, on stretching out the hand and getting familiar with certain things over and over again you sort of tend to resolve them always the same. It just all takes time, and sadly until the moment comes we’re in despair because things don’t come out how they’re supposed to.

Concerning Bach, oh boy…some things I start reading at first I find completely impossible..my first reaction is that of me never being able to do this. Then after some time, a couple months of practice and practice and studying the music and studying the hand…things start to come out. Bach really tears the hand apart, haha

Allemande,

I think we should also consider the final tempo of the piece.  Fingerings suitable for slow tempi don't always work in faster ones.  Also could you describe the character of the piece?

If it indeed it was a brisk allegro or presto, I would be inclined to do 1-1-1  as small breaks in legato such as notated are negligible.  As well, too many finger crossings and substitutions in fast passages lead to fatigue. 

If the piece is a bit slower, I could see your teachers fingering working.  I would also consider 1-2-1 in the lower voice to simplify movement, provided you are comfortable with the 2 - 4 in that interval. 

There is also a pedaling solution, it involves adding a very quick pedal starting a 16th before the strong beat, then releasing after playing the chord on the strong beat.  Only a light touch is needed on the pedal, not all the way down. 

Very true. The final tempo of the piece really must be taken into consideration. My teacher always tells me that when I study at home, at slow speed, with everything implied (proper technique, fingering, musicality) it must be the final version in slow motion. This week I guess I could say I gave myself the luxury of doing the 2-1 finger switch in all the notes, but sincerely the first one (from RE to MI) is really uncomfortable for me and takes my hand out of place. So there I try as much as possible to do a legato with the thumb and not use the pedal.From Mi to Fa isn’t so much as a problem, it’s still a a b it of a stretch, but it’s to be studied and resolved.  Same goes for the repetition of the musical idea in the following bars.

The character of the piece is very lively (and heroic, in my opinion), the tempo marks “Allegro molto e con brio”, it’s the 1st movement of Beethoven’s sonata no 4. Op. 7 in Eb major. Yes, there is the pedaling solution, but I think in this passage I’m not to use pedal. I haven’t talked about this with my teacher, but I think that there is no pedal here, so it really depends on the legato with the fingering.