Race and Differences in Playing

[donjuan]

Does your nationality affect the way you play?  In my experience, I have found many asian players  to have excellent technique and few mannerisms at the piano.  They seem very proper, but I find the performance ridiculously dry.
What do you think?

donjuan  

[squinchy]

In my experience, I have found many asian players  to have excellent technique and few mannerisms at the piano.  They seem very proper, but I find the performance ridiculously dry.
What do you think?

donjuan  

Ha!   I'm definitely not the typical Asian player, then..

..My technique is horrible-I threw a tantrum about Czerny (recently!) and still haven't gotten through the Hanon book in my almost 6 years of playing. Or maybe I just hate Czerny and am not very good at Hanon. I also have sub-par arpeggios and horrific scales, but I'm trying to get them to a respectable level this summer.

As for dryness, I wouldn't know. My performances usually traumatize me so much that I don't bother to watch tapes. I don't think I'm the driest of them all, but probably not sufficiently emotional either. A lot of my [Asian] friends seem to fit the stereotype, though-They never mess up, and the whole piece has a very polished, memorized, slightly mechanical sound.

I know that the original question was how nationality affects the way one plays, but I think it affects what one plays too. My teacher always puts the Asian students in the second half of programs (to accomodate Chinese School), and while you hear lots of pop music (LoTR, Evanescence) in the first half, the second half is overflowing with sonatas that have rondo-like tendencies. Actually, the second half always has a lot of Mozart and Kuhlau.

Squinchy

[donjuan]

Also, very few asians play Liszt!  I only see westerners playing Liszt.  The asians only seem to play schubert impromptus or Beethoven sonatas, or less virtuosic chopin preludes or nocturnes.  Other than the Rachmaninoff concertos No.2,3, I rarely see them playing Rachmaninoff.  hmmmfunny...

donjuan

[faulty_damper]

There may be a corellation between ethnic background and what they play but not the cause of what they play.

One thing to consider is location.  If a person learns music in China, that person would almost certainly be learning things that were taught by someone who learned from someone who learned from someone from the West.  And the repetory that the Western person taught would have initiated a long process in which the repetory would be passed down from his students.  Any new repetory that the students have not heard of before would not be passed down.

Another factor is language.  If all of piano music texts were written in Western languages, then only a few Chinese persons who have learned those languages would be able to read about those composers that were not initialy introduced to them.  Not knowing about the vast composers would limit the choices that the pianists would seek.  So the repetory that they choose would still be of the composers that have already been introduced.

Another factor is time.  Composers of the more modern era, Rachmaninov, Liszt, Busoni, Satie, Debussy, et al, would not have been introduced to the students of the Western teacher as he has not heard of them before.  You cannot show someone something if that something does not yet exist.  Now with the increase of the flow of information, unknown composers or composers not very popular are able to be shared among pianists.  One example is Charles-Valentin Alkan's compositions.  He was very obscure until recently.

There are three factors that limit the repetory that a person knows about and performs:  location, language, and time.  These factors dictate what a student would learn and add to his repetory.  But there is another factor that I will expound on latter that affects the choice a person makes when choosing pieces.

What would a person in China who is learning the piano play?  Most definitely the works of the big three: Mozart, Hayden, and Beethoven.  Other popular composers are Schubert and Chopin.

Schubert and Chopin have a different style from the Big Three.  They tend to incorporate beautiful melodies throughout much of their works.  They are also less complex than the Classical composers in this manner as the melody is almost always dominant and can easily be focussed on.  This characteristic trait is also found extensively in Chinese music: the melody is dominant with smoothe lines.  This is one reason many Chinese pianists prefer to play Chopin and Schubert: their music is the most compatible with their ethnic music.  It would be more natural to be drawn to music that is most similar to ones own.  It's cultural.

However, the musical scales in Chinese culture is more fine tuned than in Western music.  Western music, compared to Asian music, is primitive with large leaps from pitch to pitch whereas Asian musical intervals are much finer allowing more delicant pitch changes.  From a person who has listened to Asian music most of their life, listening to Western music sounds "noisy".  "Noisy" is what one of my music professor's mother says of the music he listens to who is from China.  It is in fact noisy should you take up listening to it exclusively for a week and then going back to listen to Western music; the contrast is stark.

Now this "noisiness" of Western music from an Asian perspective may limit the repetory that one chooses.  Children of Asian descent often have troubles distinguishing where the music is in Western music.  The reason is this: Western music seems like noise more than music.   This could be a reason why some children just don't know what they are hearing and just play the piano by way of fingers, just pressing the right keys are the right time.

Backtracking to Chopin's music: it may be true that many Asians prefer Chopin's music than to any other composers' music and may be because of Chopin's style of using the chromatic scale to bridge the 'gap' between pitch changes.  Since the chromatic scale is much finer than the 24 Western scales, the chromatic scale sounds more "whole" without the gaps in the regular scales.

So now there are four reasons, the cultural one being the most significant in my opinion as cultural differences are usually the most difficult to overcome.

[erik-]

Kun Woo Paik is a famous Korean pianist, and his repertoire includes Liszt, Chopin, Scriabin, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Busoni, Messiaen, Ravel ...

He did record Liszt. His recordings of the 5 Prokofiev's piano concerti received several prices. He also  recorded all Moussorgsky's piano works, all Ravel's piano solo works and his 2 piano concerti, the 4 rachmaninoff's piano concerti ...

[donjuan]

Kun Woo Paik is a famous Korean pianist, and his repertoire includes Liszt, Chopin, Scriabin, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Busoni, Messiaen, Ravel ...

He did record Liszt. His recordings of the 5 Prokofiev's piano concerti received several prices. He also  recorded all Moussorgsky's piano works, all Ravel's piano solo works and his 2 piano concerti, the 4 rachmaninoff's piano concerti ...

I was refering to asian pianists in general.  A different single one is insignificant to the argument.  It's like in the Gender and playing style thread, where Martha Argerich was mentioned.  Lets leave the rarities out and talk about the majority.  

Faulty makes a logical argument.  It sure makes a lot of sense..But why then, here in North America, we see many Chinese students (not immigrants, but with heritage..) playing the Big Three and the other composers we talked about...
donjuan

[Clare]

Maybe here in Australia it's different because at my school I see hardly any difference in the choices all us students make in composers and what nationality they are. There are more asian students than white students doing piano at my school but everyone is really integrated and stuff. Plenty of asian students at my school play Liszt.

I have noticed other things though: we only have white students doing jazz.

The most interesting thing I've noticed is the difference between the composer choices of the sexes (which I guess I should actually write about in the other thread, but I am talking about composer preferences here rather than playing style). The guys tend to choose more flamboyant pieces, while the girls tend to choose the more lyrical pieces. For instance, they seem to want to play the slow movements from concertos at concerts and stuff. I haven't seen a girl at my school play Rachmaninoff yet.

[Tash]

yeah there's a japanese girl who's at my old school who played liszt's leibstraumn no.3 beautifully i think it was one of the best playings of it i'd ever heard.
but i think perhaps part of the reason for them being so 'dry' (and no offence to the asian race i have nothing against them) is 1) because here in australia they learn so damn quickly so you have these 12 year olds doing Lmus (which is really high), but because they're so young how can they have the capacity to play at the emotional depth the pieces need? i think back to when i was 12 and i highly doubt that i'd have been able to understand how to interpret the works of any composer properly because at that age generally you don't know all that much, i mean you're just starting high school here!

2) from my vague knowledge some tend to go with the suzuki method of playing. i don't know much about it apart from that they learn more from ear so basically listen to a piece and imitate it right? so you can get these technically perfect players but they have put no personal interpretation into it. is that right?

but for the question, yeah i think nationality does affect the way you play, especialy with general society's attitude towards the different genres of music and composers so that's going to influence what you play and how you interpret it

[bizgirl]

A lot of Asians do use the Suzuki method.  I wonder if it is because the man who came up with it (Shinichi Suzuki) is Asain.  I don't think that method really has anything to do with lack of expression though.  My younger sister began the Suzuki method at age five and, although there is a lot of emphasis on listening to recordings, she did learn to read music within a couple months and to play expressively.  The primary purpose for the recordings is so the student can hear it played correctly (rhythm, general sound of the piece, etc.) at any time, instead of just when they are at their lessons and it is being played by the teacher.  I think the expressiveness really depends on the individual and their personality.  I know people who are very self-conscious and to show any expression in their playing makes them feel nervous.  I also think the right teacher would be able to help someone overcome this.

Squinchy, at least you're honest!

[faulty_damper]

Another thing that Asian countries have in common is Confucian philosophy.  Confucian philosophy permeates almost all sectors of society and is the basis for government.

Confucianism says that only those who are knowledgeable are able to lead the rest of society.  Also, those who are knowledgable are obligated to help society.  In other words, only those with doctorate degrees are able to become the president of the United States, not high school diplomas.  And those doctors must take positions where they can utilize their knowledge.

Self-knowledge is another aspect of Confucianism.  To be a better person, one must be more knowledgeable.

Confucianism also says a lot of other things that are relevent to answer the topic of this thread.  I only mentioned the above because that was all I could recall at this moment.  I'm sure some one knows the other principles of Confucianism.

[donjuan]

Faulty, you dont really seem like an American...

[blindmouth]

Another thing that Asian countries have in common is Confucian philosophy.  Confucian philosophy permeates almost all sectors of society and is the basis for government.

not true! countries like India, Philippines and Indonesia (to name a few) certainly don't fit this
statement.

Confucianism says that only those who are knowledgeable are able to lead the rest of society.  Also, those who are knowledgable are obligated to help society.  In other words, only those with doctorate degrees are able to become the president of the United States, not high school diplomas.  And those doctors must take positions where they can utilize their knowledge.

this reminds me of actualized communism

Self-knowledge is another aspect of Confucianism.  To be a better person, one must be more knowledgeable.

i believe that there is a western adage that says the same thing (see quotes of oracle at delphi)

damper, im not trying to be malicious or condescending because i tend to generalize about things as well. as an asian amateur's amateur piano player, i felt that i should address some of those statements. donjuan, out of curiousity where do you reside?

[blindmouth]

concerning donjuan's question, i would have to agree with bizgirl's statement. its not the nationality that affects your playing but the pedagogical methods used that affects your style. the suzuki method that was mentioned was introduced to me not by my asian piano teacher but by a caucasian band director in my high school years!

[donjuan]

I live in Alberta, Canada
eh?
yep..
donjuan

[blindmouth]

donjuan, im not gonna even lie- i have no idea where alberta,canada is located.

but seriously, im going to generalize here so im sure there are exceptions. it seems as though asian americans play differently than asians. i 'recently' attended a master class with two asians, one american and the other foreign. i noticed that the american girl played with a grandiose jestures (liszts paganini variations or something like that) as opposed to the other girl who was sitting motionless, playing all the notes (prokofievs sonata no 1).

[donjuan]

You dont know where Canada is? where do you live?  Canada is in the North Western Hemisphere, right above the U.S.  We are bigger in land area than the US, but they have more people and capital punishment. hehe

In the example, you were not only comparing different countries, but you were also comparing Liszt to Prokofiev, which is impossible.  Grandiose gestures is what Liszt was all about as a performer.  Prokofiev is a modern composer.  Modern music emerged as an opposite to Romanticism- Everyone was tired of Liszt at this point-

Because of this great difference in the style, I cant make a general statment about american asians vs. asians.
donjuan

[blindmouth]

You dont know where Canada is? where do you live?  Canada is in the North Western Hemisphere, right above the U.S.  We are bigger in land area than the US, but they have more people and capital punishment. hehe

In the example, you were not only comparing different countries, but you were also comparing Liszt to Prokofiev, which is impossible.  Grandiose gestures is what Liszt was all about as a performer.  Prokofiev is a modern composer.  Modern music emerged as an opposite to Romanticism- Everyone was tired of Liszt at this point-

Because of this great difference in the style, I cant make a general statment about american asians vs. asians.
donjuan

sorry, i wasnt clear. i dont know where 'alberta' is located. i live all the way down in houston, texas and my knowledge on geography is quite limited.

but back to the topic, i'm guessing you havent heard prokofiev's first sonata. it screams to be labeled as a generic romantic sonata. go to www.classicalarchives.com and take a listen for yourself if you dont believe me. anyways, even if the music isnt romantic you can always be a romantic performer (stravinsky's petroucha (spelling?) suite comes to mind.)

[donjuan]

Look, Prokofiev wasnt a romantic composer.  Even if his sonata has a romantic feel about it, it doesnt change the time period and playing style all that much.  It's like Mozarts Fantsy in D minor that was discussed in another thread.  Mozart wasnt a romantic composer just because of one "romantic" sounding piece.  

You are in Texas, and you dont know where Alberta is?  I know where you are!! hehehe
donjuan

[Spatula]

To clear things off,

Well I'm dwelling in AB, Canada, while my background is well...asian for the most part.
I have to say that most of my azn friends do piano just for the heck of it or that they're mommies and daddies just want them to do something "production" instead of studying or PS2...or whatever.  So they just say okay I'll do piano but I'll quit when I do grade 8 or 10 or whatever.  

They do have a very mechanical feel for most of the part, but not certainly all of them.  I find myself a more "expressive" player in a sense that I don't just play them, but try to understand the meaing behind the songs.

You have to see that there are two groups of asian players, the actual asian players, and the CBC or ABC players (Canadian or American Born Chinese or Asians).
I personally find the ABCs (the "authentic" or asian born asians) actually can "feel" the music, whilst the CBCs or ABCs tend to just do it for achievement purposes.

But that's my opinion and don't do any asian gang fights against me! I have my own thoughts!  
Houston Texas, my parents went down there, nice place, somewhat.  But well...I like Alberta and I like it's beef, sans BSE.  Right Don Juan?! RIGHT!  

BTW, anyone here a fan of Nobuo Uematsu's Music from Final Fantasy series, the Piano Collections?  They're not nearly complex as classical, but fun to listen to.

[Spatula]

BTW, like I said previously on 3 or 4 of my previous posts, I'm playing the Rach prelude no 5 op 23  
even though it's so "overkilled".

[donjuan]

Spatula, since you and I are the only Albertans I am aware of on the forum, which city do you live in and who is your piano teacher?  If you wish to conceal names and cities, feel free to tell me via private message.  Im very curious!!
donjuan

[blindmouth]

donjuan,

you still havent told me where alberta is located! (east coast, west coast, middle? near toronto?) ive  been to toronto, but i havent been there in years. but its good to know that you know where houston is. just dont use it against me  

im digressing. in my opinion, it doesnt matter when the music was composed or what genre of classical music it belongs. all that matters is the performer's interpretation (and i never contented that prokofiev was a romantic, i just said his first sonata was romantic.) more importantly, you dont have to interpret a song by its genre (i.e. a scarlatti sonata in a baroque fashion, gestures and all.) thats what makes classical music great; it can be interpreted differently. but i wont argue this point any longer because i think my time on the computer is up (im in a internet cafe).

[donjuan]

(sigh ) incase you didnt know this, Alberta is a PROVINCE just like Texas is a STATE.  It is located left of middle on the map of Canada.  I know your ignorance isnt your fault- it's the way of your education system, where Americans dont learn anything about any other countries except themselves.
donjuan

[Saturn]

(sigh ) incase you didnt know this, Alberta is a PROVINCE just like Texas is a STATE.  It is located left of middle on the map of Canada.  I know your ignorance isnt your fault- it's the way of your education system, where Americans dont learn anything about any other countries except themselves.
donjuan

To the contrary, we Americans learn about many other nations, mainly the ones we want to invade.  Canada isn't very high on our list.

- Saturn

[Spatula]

Neither is Hockey high on the US' lists.  They had wider coverage of NBA than the NHL stanley playoffs  

[f0bul0us]

To clear things off,

Well I'm dwelling in AB, Canada, while my background is well...asian for the most part.
I have to say that most of my azn friends do piano just for the heck of it or that they're mommies and daddies just want them to do something "production" instead of studying or PS2...or whatever.  So they just say okay I'll do piano but I'll quit when I do grade 8 or 10 or whatever.  

I hope you're talking about Chinese because most Filipino's I know stopped at grade 4 or 5. Lol

Got rice???

[Tash]

speaking of the asians being freaks at the piano, i was at this gala thing for an eisteddfod cos my sis was getting a prize for ballet in it and they had performances from all the different categories, so dance, drama, intrumental, piano, etc. and there was this little asian girl who was EIGHT and had just done her AMEB grade 8 (that's pretty high, i only did it last year) and she played shostrakovich's 'waltz' and she was beautiful! her technique and musicality was lovely and she could barely reach the pedals! it was absolutely amazing

[Spatula]

I hope you're talking about Chinese because most Filipino's I know stopped at grade 4 or 5. Lol

Got rice???

Yeah, plenty of rice.  (insert your rice joke here)

Yes I'm referring to Chinese.

Have a rice day!  

[f0bul0us]

You must have never seen the "Got Rice?" music video.
https://www.funnyjunk.com/pages/asianpride.htm

[Spatula]

You must have never seen the "Got Rice?" music video.
https://www.funnyjunk.com/pages/asianpride.htm

HAHAHAHAH that's even better than the cat's beheading or lang lang intro video!!
and I'm never offended at this crap, it was so damn funny should get an oscar!!!  

btw go to www.ebaumsworld.com for some crazy stuff

[Nana_Ama]

I think it really depends on your teacher and what artists you are exposed to.

[Nana_Ama]

You dont know where Canada is? where do you live?  Canada is in the North Western Hemisphere, right above the U.S.  We are bigger in land area than the US...
Because of this great difference in the style, I cant make a general statment about american asians vs. asians.
donjuan

LOL
You shouldn't make general statements...

[Nana_Ama]

(sigh ) incase you didnt know this, Alberta is a PROVINCE just like Texas is a STATE.  It is located left of middle on the map of Canada.  I know your ignorance isnt your fault- it's the way of your education system, where Americans dont learn anything about any other countries except themselves.
donjuan

Us Americans need the occasional war to learn about geography... otherwise we just ignore the rest of the world.  

[donjuan]

well, Ill be travelling down into your country in less than a week.  My family is going through oregon and all the way to the redwoods--> I want to see that tree you can drive through..
donjuan

[in_love_with_liszt]

Hmmm sorry to veer back onto the topic away from the fun stuff, but I do think your nationality has an effect on your playing. I'm Polish and Russian, and people have told me that my playing sounds Chopinesque. Although that could be because I grew up listening and playing alot of Chopin.

[Spatula]

Us Americans need the occasional war to learn about geography... otherwise we just ignore the rest of the world.  

The day US goes to war against CAN, they will found out Toronto is NOT the Capital of Canada.  

[liszmaninopin]

It is curious, though, how certain races seem to have a preponderance in certain activities.

I was just this summer at a competition near Washington, D.C.  Counting myself, there might have been 3 white kids there.  Everyone else was Asian.  It didn't bother me, but it did strike me as odd that in an area where only a relatively small percentage of the population is Asian, nearly everybody at every piano competition I've been to is Asian.

[Sark1]

I definately think that race affects playing, in that it affects certain pieces.  For example, I am armenian and i can tell these differences in the music of, oh khachaturian for example.  Any other professional pianist plays his music beautifully, but an armenian musician plays it with more emotion and joy because we feel it is our music.  This is true with all races.  
As to the Asian sterotype, I must agree that that is what i always see, but there are some good asian players out there. oh well

[donjuan]

As to the Asian sterotype, I must agree that that is what i always see, but there are some good asian players out there. oh well

I think Lang Lang is the only asian player I have ever seen that breaks the stereotype.
donjuan

[ted]

I agree with what the others say. While I acknowledge the existence of characteristic qualities shared by players of a given race, I think that these things are learned and not intrinsic. Black people can play and create anything, white people can play and create anything and Asian people can play and create anything - with equal chance of success. The only obstacles would seem to be environment, habit and lack of personal courage to differ from that which others see as appropriate.