a couple questions on extended chords

[Bob]

Just for my own review.   

I need someone who really knows.  A jazzer maybe.

For a Am+13 chord... Is that including all the notes from an a minor chord up to the 13th?  a c e ...  g b f?   or just a c e f?

Does it matter if you write that Am13 or Am+13?



Second question, although I think I've just answered myself...
For something like an Am13 -- or any Major or minor extended chord -- When you're building those are you sticking to the minor scale for minor extended chords and the major scale for major/dominant extended chords?
Based on my Am13 notes... The g is natural, so that's the minor scale.
(The 7th and 9th would be the same in Major or minor.)


Just checking.  I should know this.  I know I've asked the first question on here before, but I'm being lazy. 

[Bob]

Still no one?  This board has slowed down lately.

[Petter]

Adding 13ths to minor chords is relatively rare in standard jazz, probably cause the sound gets the tension from the tritonus relation beetwen C and F#. In a regular jazz progression of [ II V I ] the V chord would have that suspension. In modal music itīs quite common though.
 Donīt know the exact theory behind it but I suppose you build the chord from itīs function in G major as the 2nd step or dorian mode. So A C E G B F#
 You could skip the 5th and the 9th aswell if you wanted and youīd still have a A minor 13.

[Petter]

If you wanted a chord with F instead of F# itīd be easier to understand as
Fmaj9/A (#11) at least for me. The + sign generally applies to the fifth so a Am13+ would be confusing since youīd think the natural F# in G major and the raised fifth 

[Bob]

Interesting.

So a "minor" anything chord is really just the 3rd and 7th, in terms of altering things.  The rest is all major.  1 5 9 11 13

And that makes sense about 13 since a minor tried with an added 6th is an added major 6th.  Yes.

So am I right in thinking that it's jazz, so you would have seventh chords to begin with, so the seventh would be there.  Then it's optional for the 9th and 11th, if you've got a thirteenth chord?

And if it's jazz, you can change the chord quality anyway.  But I'm wondering what's technically correct if you want to stick as close to the chord symbol as possible.


I found my other post.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,23306.msg259284

[Petter]

Am(#5) for the A C F. Itīs usually in the progression of Am Am#5 Am6 Am#5 Am. Like the James Bond theme.
 But thereīs other Minor chords in jazz where other rules apply. The minor tonic chord usually has an major 7th and 9th added. Thatīd be AmMaj9. Thatīs the "Bad-Guy-Chord" Last chord of James Bond theme and last chord of the Pink panther. Sometimes jazz musicians play Am6/9 instead as a tonic chord for variation. Bill Evans plays this alot.

Overall, when I think a 13 chord I think 6+7 = 13, the other notes that are essential is the 3rd and the root (that the base player plays unless heīs as bad as mine) the A.

[Petter]

9 and 11th are optional sometimes and always when dealing with minor chords built from the 2nd step or 11th they are natural in the scale.
But depends what you want. The A7 (V7) chord with a minor 7 has lot of possibilites including alterations to 9 and 13 Usually itīs easier to see it in structures such as different chords on top of each other. Like a Eb minor chord over a A7 chord (and no 5th! cause it clashes with the Eb chord) gives you a A13b9#11 a Bmajor chord over A7 chord = A13#11
I think alot of these things to memorize and to find suitable arpeggios, scales etc for improvisation over chords.

[Bob]

Interesting.  I must have focused on Major and dominant chords when extending them up to 13ths.

But there aren't a huge amount of extended chords right?  It's not like there is every combination of b9, natural 9, sharp 9, with b/nat/sharp 11th, etc., right?  There are some chords that are used more frequently, right?  Like with seventh chords, you have M7, m7, D7, dim7, half-dim7, and you see those often.  But you don't see mM7, MM7, or MMm7 that often, even though you can create them.

Are there lists of these more common extended chords?


And then common voicings I suppose would be the next step after that... 

I do have lists of these around somewhere.  I just don't want to go digging them out right now.



Say for 9th chords...
The most common ones are M9, m9, and V9 right?  Followed by something like a V9b9 and V9#9 right?  (or maybe there's a b5 with one or both of those...)  But there are more common ninth chords right?  It's not every combination of stacking thirds and things... It can't be.  Well, it's not.  I just want the most common ones.

[Petter]

Yea thereīs more or less common chords. Jazz pianist since the late 50īs usually play left hand voicings which usually exclude the root since the bass player is expected to play it while you solo on top of it.
 The chord that provides most opportunities for alteration is the V7 chord. except for the V7 chord with the natural 9 the most common V7 alterations with the 9 is probably V7#9#5 (or b13 instead of #5, which is interchangeable, although I think b13 would be more theoretically correct) andV7b9#5
 If you have a standard 13 V7 chord with no alterations the natural nine can be included or excluded, thereīs no real rules for that. Same goes for the 5th.
 As for M7 chords adding the natural 9 is common, but is also interchangeable with the I6/9 chord, (an A6/9 would be A C# F# B) it sounds slightly more modern and allows you to stack 4ths which equals
 In pop music lead sheets itīs common with add9 or add9no3 and it goes both for minor and major chords which means you exclude the 7th and only add the natural 9.
 Think those would qualify as the most common 9 chords.

[Bob]

Thanks!

no3 means no third in the chord?

[Petter]

Yep yep.

[Bob]

So ninth chords, you could have for basic ninth chords...

M9 (interchangeable with the I6/9)
m9
V9
V7#9#5
V7b9#5

What's the deal again with viio and viihalfo?  How do those get extended?

[Petter]

seventh step would be: Vii(half)o i
Aminor9b5
Aminor11b5
for the half diminished chord. The most common thing is just to add the 7th, if you add the natural nine Iīd be a Bb but that sounds like sh*t so the 9th is often raised to B (dont ask me why I learned long time ago, and forgot), and I think it sounds gorgeous but you start losing the tonality feel.

Itīs very common to replace the 3rd in the chord with the 11th and play a voicing without the third (c in a A minor chord) Instead youīd perhaps play (in a A minor chord) A (bottom note, play with left hand) and in right hand play Eb G A D. If you move the bass tone around youīll discover allot of other neat chords. Replace A with C and you have a Cminor6/9, replace C with F and you have a F13 replace F with Eb and youīll have Ebmaj#11, replace Eb with D and youīll have a phrygian chord Dsusb9 or if you have a B in the bass you get a B7#5#9. Sorry if I got you sidetracked. But I think allot about how to understand extended chords is to see their similarities and connections.
 
Viio =
Adim7, minor 2nds on each other. The regular chord. Sometimes jazz musicians think of them as a V/7 chord without any root, since thatīs usually their function in standard jazz. But the half whole diminished scale is so complex so thereīs allot of variation. In some modern jazz tunes you sometimes see chords like G/Ab or A/Bb, I think those are derived from the theory about diminished scale theory, but Iīm not sure. The most common color note to add a dim chord would probably be g# one semi tone from A. That kinda gives it away that weīre dealing with a V7 chord of some sort. In this case Ab7b9 even if the A is in the bass.