Rachmaninoff Etude-Tableaux Op. 39. no. 1 - Fingering

[aslanov]

hey, i just started trying this out, and i was wondering what fingering you guys use for the right hand.

from the very beginning this is what i've come up with. 2-1-5-4-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-4-3-1-4

at the very beginning i start with a 2 because i find it makes it easier for the 4th finger to stretch to the Db. i realize a 3 would be more comfortable but, once i get used to the 2, the Db would be easier to reach. where i have a problem is going from the Eb with the 5th finger to the Db with the 2nd finger right after. i was wondering what fingering you guys use in this particular part.

Thanks

[mike_lang]

I believe what I used for the first measure was something like this, which is quite similar to your solution, but avoiding the fourth finger in my case:

315 215 215 215 215 215 214 315

I find in this étude that much less depends on fingering than rotation (and also flexibility of the hand).  This is why I use the second finger on Db - it arrives via rotation, which is for me, much of the purpose of this work.

[aslanov]

i've changed the fingering to 315 415 215 215 215 215 214 315

i find ur 315 to 215 is very......uncomfortable, but the rest is fine.

[mike_lang]

i've changed the fingering to 315 415 215 215 215 215 214 315

i find ur 315 to 215 is very......uncomfortable, but the rest is fine.

As you like, but much depends on how you arrive on the Db (with finger number 2).  If you can figure out to move your hand (there is no stretch involved), you will find that the second finger is much more stable on that note.

[aslanov]

the stability of hitting it accurately at fast speeds is what i was thinking of actually, thanks for your help. i think ill try it with the second, lol.

[lostinidlewonder]

315 415 215 315 215 315 214 315

315-4 is the most natural form and keeps the hand open. When you play the 4th it encourages the hand to move up without a jerking motion that you find if you play with other fingers.

215 315 215 this turn is best controlled with these fingers I find. The 2nd finger plays a little more curled, when the 3rd plays it (the 2nd finger) straightens, then curls back around, you can feel the 2nd finger grasp release then grasp again a natural feeling. The 2nd finger in the 3rd group here has to feel like it is coming from above the thumb so that the hands stays open. Overusing the 2nd causes tension.

I also like how the first notes of these groups of 3 semiquavers are like: 3,4  2,3,2,3,2,3

We also need to try to keep 2 groups of the 3 semiquavers  in one position of the hand as suggested by the score.

[ramseytheii]

I disagree with the 4th finger on the D-flat, and I think it misses the point of this etude, which is not a fingering etude, or an etude in the style of op.10 no.2.  Don't give in to the mania to "connect" everything, because this is precisely music which is not connected by fingering, but rather by the upper musculature. 

In this etude you are essentially playing hand positions that you reach by subtle movements of the upper action: shoulder, upper arm, and elbow.  Each of these positions also  has a natural rotation, which comes from the hand/lower arm.

Looking at it this way, the grouping A-flat , D-flat, A-flat (the second triplet) with the fingering 4-1-5 is extremely uncomfortable, weak, and insecure.  Furthermore, the grouping A-flat, C, C, D-flat (the first triplet plus the next note) with the fingering 3/2 - 1 - 5 - 4 is also painful.

For a successful run at this, you need to have the upper action mobile (Medtner described Rachmaninov's technique as "shaking the notes out of his sleeve"), the hand rotating, and a light second finger, or more precisely, easy action between the second finger and thumb, because it is the second finger which is used the most.

Walter Ramsey

[lostinidlewonder]

What do you mean by this is not a fingering etude? Technique is fingering as Liszt says. I would like to see what fingering you suggest exactly. You do not play the 2nd triplet in isolation with those fingers. In fact the fingers encourage a grouping of 6 semiquaver notes in one movement of the hand.

(315 415) (215 315 215) (315 214 315)
That is the movement groups how I feel them when I play so the bar is controlled by three positions/movements of the hand, which is quite efficient. As a method of practice one can play each of these groups fast and pause in between each to acquire muscular memory.

[ramseytheii]

What do you mean by this is not a fingering etude? Technique is fingering as Liszt says. I would like to see what fingering you suggest exactly. You do not play the 2nd triplet in isolation with those fingers. In fact the fingers encourage a grouping of 6 semiquaver notes in one movement of the hand.

(315 415) (215 315 215) (315 214 315)
That is the movement groups how I feel them when I play so the bar is controlled by three positions/movements of the hand, which is quite efficient. As a method of practice one can play each of these groups fast and pause in between each to acquire muscular memory.

When I say it is not a fingering etude, I mean it is not an etude that tests ingenious finger combinations along the lines of op.10 no.2.  It is an etude for the action of the upper muscles: this is quite clear, as in every bar, you have to "pump" the action in order to play the triplets.  There are many spots where it is impossible to connect with fingering alone, thus showing that his aim was to activate the upper arms.

I don't know what it means, technique is fingering.  What fingering will help you to play the octaves in the Liszt sonata, or the Schubert a minor?  Will fingering alone solve the peroration of the Ravel Toccata?  With fingering alone, you could not even begin the Schumann Toccata.  The fingering I would use is 3/2 (for me either works) - 1- 5- 2 - 1 -5 etc.

I am very surprised to hear that 4 works for you!  But, everyone's technique is different.

Walter Ramsey

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't know what it means, technique is fingering.  What fingering will help you to play the octaves in the Liszt sonata, or the Schubert a minor?

The feeling you get from playing shapes which do not require finger changing still bases technique on fingering. I guess it is how we define the meaning of "fingering". Of course fingering does not only focus on what finger numbers to use but rather how the fingering choices cause the efficient movement in our body to produce the desired sound. In this Rach however we are not talking about octaves or stagnant fingering. To me the RH is very Bach like.... in fast forward


If we move on to the next pattern that we find say in Bar8. The second legato tie I use these fingers: 1 215 215 415  I utilize the 4th again in the following bars which continue this pattern. One might find it difficult, especially if their 4th is weak(shouldn't be trying thispiece if that's the case). So finding the sense of touch for the 4th right from the start makes sence to me because it can comfortably be used in other patterns.

Personally I prefer the 4th, I can also play the piece with the other fingerings but I tend to feel more tired at the end of the piece.

[mike_lang]

There are many spots where it is impossible to connect with fingering alone, thus showing that his aim was to activate the upper arms.

In fact, I play most of the of the right hand non-legato, but connected IN PHRASE... You are exactly right - the arm connects.  The piece does not have to go terribly fast, but having tried as many options as possible, the fourth finger slows me down already at the beginning of the phrase - rather, it stops the flow.  I don't care of whom we speak - anatomically, it is the weakest digit.

If I have the chance, I will try to post a video of the first measure in slow motion.

Somewhat ironically, I will also try to address in the same video the GENIUS of using the fourth finger in Chopin 10/9, which is the topic of another current thread.

ML

[aslanov]

thanks for the informative debate.
so i already got michael's and lostwonder's fingering.
but what about ramsey? how do u do this?
thanks again.

[ramseytheii]

thanks for the informative debate.
so i already got michael's and lostwonder's fingering.
but what about ramsey? how do u do this?
thanks again.

Although it's possible to use 3 on the first note, for me really the only functional fingering is the most obvious: 2-1-5 on all of the triplets that involve octaves.  This is an etude about making phrases without the aid of fingering, rather with the use of the upper arm muscles.  To that degree, when learning this piece, do not worry about a "connective" fingering, because it won't help you to play it.

Walter Ramsey

[mike_lang]

Although it's possible to use 3 on the first note, for me really the only functional fingering is the most obvious: 2-1-5 on all of the triplets that involve octaves. 

Highly Chopinesque!  If I have time to rework, I'm sure I will try this.

Regards,

Michael

[jlh]

I have performed this piece probably at least 50 times so I will give you what works best for me and why.

315 315 215 215 215 215 214 315

I find that a 3 on the first 2 groupings of notes is least awkward for the wrist (mine anyway), which needs to be free for the rotation motion of the piece.  If you start with a 215 then your wrist is starting in a turned-outward position that just feels very uncomfortable and less efficient.  Same logic and situation on the 2nd group if you were to use 215.  Using 415 on the second group seems a very weak combination of fingers for something that needs to be solidly phrased.

IMHO using a 315 on the first 2 groups in no way detracts from the rotational use of the hand with which much of this etude is dealing.  I also disagree that the ONLY functional fingering is 215 on all groupings involving octaves here. 

With all respect to Walter, we have had lengthy debates about this etude so obviously there are many things on which we simply disagree.  To your advantage though, you get the benefit of hearing many differing ideas and coming up with a solution that works best for you!

That's my suggestion... best of luck!

Josh

[nearenough]

For a startlingly exciting performance go to You Tube and look up Rustem Hayroudinoff playing this as an encore to his presentation of Rachmaninoff's 3rd P.C. I met this young artist on a cruise in 2006 where he performed this piece and a few others, a Chopin Waltz, several other SR pieces and Franck's Prelude Aria and Finale; an outstanding concert not only because of its bold authority but because he didn't play those hackneyed pieces one enconters in the itinerant crowd-pleaser repertories.

He has recorded the SR preludes and etudes-tableaux for Chandos and gotten good reviews. I wish he would issue some more items; shall we start a fan club?

[jgranata13]

Yes, I know this thread is 13 years old… 

I came to this thread to see if there was a consensus on which of the three fingering options that (in my perception) immediately present themselves for the E-flat-to-D-natural at the halfway point of the bar; I was surprised that the conversation for the most part entirely focused on the *rest* of the bar.

(Regarding the rest of the bar, I think that in this case it’s very dependent on individual hand geometry and there’s not much more to be said.)

But I do have quite a bit to say about the E-flat-to-D-natural…

I’m willing to bet a lot of money that the fingering Rachmaninoff himself used was 1-2-5 on D-C-C (and no I didn’t intend the 1 and 2 to be the other way around). Moreover, (ignoring hand size,) I think this is the most appropriate fingering *philosophically*, in the sense that it’s more elegant/less jagged/flows better with the rest  than 215. Also, as someone who has a lot of Rachmaninoff (and, more specifically, a lot of his etudes) in their repertoire, 125 feels more at home among his general approach to the keyboard than does 215.

Here’s where I’m coming from: I have quite large hands, but unfortunately they’re only just a hair too small for the 2-5 octave to be effortless at tempo . (The fastest I can do it effortlessly is just a bit more than moderato.)

• Among those with similarly-sized hands, is there a consensus on whether it’s worth working the 125 over settling for 215?
• If there’s anyone out there with hands big enough to do 125 effortlessly, can you tell us whether that’s the fingering you use?

Ok so we have 215 and 125… but I mentioned I had a third option…

The only thing with this option is that it doesn’t work in all instances throughout the piece. *BUT* if it did work everywhere, I would absolutely choose it over 215.

I propose 1(RH)-1(LH)-5(RH).  Wherever it works, it works stunningly because the LH thumb is already on the note. The instances where it doesn’t work are those where the LH has more motion and is too busy to comfortably sneak in the C from the RH.

So those are my two cents

[lelle]

Yes, I know this thread is 13 years old… 

I came to this thread to see if there was a consensus on which of the three fingering options that (in my perception) immediately present themselves for the E-flat-to-D-natural at the halfway point of the bar; I was surprised that the conversation for the most part entirely focused on the *rest* of the bar.

(Regarding the rest of the bar, I think that in this case it’s very dependent on individual hand geometry and there’s not much more to be said.)

But I do have quite a bit to say about the E-flat-to-D-natural…

I’m willing to bet a lot of money that the fingering Rachmaninoff himself used was 1-2-5 on D-C-C (and no I didn’t intend the 1 and 2 to be the other way around). Moreover, (ignoring hand size,) I think this is the most appropriate fingering *philosophically*, in the sense that it’s more elegant/less jagged/flows better with the rest  than 215. Also, as someone who has a lot of Rachmaninoff (and, more specifically, a lot of his etudes) in their repertoire, 125 feels more at home among his general approach to the keyboard than does 215.

Here’s where I’m coming from: I have quite large hands, but unfortunately they’re only just a hair too small for the 2-5 octave to be effortless at tempo . (The fastest I can do it effortlessly is just a bit more than moderato.)

• Among those with similarly-sized hands, is there a consensus on whether it’s worth working the 125 over settling for 215?
• If there’s anyone out there with hands big enough to do 125 effortlessly, can you tell us whether that’s the fingering you use?

Ok so we have 215 and 125… but I mentioned I had a third option…

The only thing with this option is that it doesn’t work in all instances throughout the piece. *BUT* if it did work everywhere, I would absolutely choose it over 215.

I propose 1(RH)-1(LH)-5(RH).  Wherever it works, it works stunningly because the LH thumb is already on the note. The instances where it doesn’t work are those where the LH has more motion and is too busy to comfortably sneak in the C from the RH.

So those are my two cents

I don't have big enough hands to do 125 comfortably but regardless I would just do 215

[pianopro181]

hey, i just started trying this out, and i was wondering what fingering you guys use for the right hand.

from the very beginning this is what i've come up with. 2-1-5-4-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-5-2-1-4-3-1-4

at the very beginning i start with a 2 because i find it makes it easier for the 4th finger to stretch to the Db. i realize a 3 would be more comfortable but, once i get used to the 2, the Db would be easier to reach. where i have a problem is going from the Eb with the 5th finger to the Db with the 2nd finger right after. i was wondering what fingering you guys use in this particular part.

Thanks

My fingering was 3-1-5-3-1-5-2-1-5-3-1-5-2-1-5-3-1-5-2-1-4-3-1-5