What do you when a students resists you?

[go12_3]

I have a student that's 7 years old(a girl)and has begun lessons with me in
December as a beginner.  Now, everytime she plays piano, her wrists and hands go down so that palms of her hands are resting upon the wood part beneath the keyboard.  I never had a student that plays that way.  I know she is young, and so I let go at times, but I have to keep lifting her wrists up to remind her to keep them up, as she plays and oh my, her hands (or she) won't cooperate with my instruction to lift her hands and wrists up some more.  Her hands feels like heavy lead as I try to get her hands to relax or lighten up.  I feel this has been a dilemma for me and I need some advice and help on this.  I feel I'm playing a tug of war with this student.  I almost lost my patience with her yesterday....but I didn't and just had her play the notes and forget her wrists being so low.  Then the lesson alright when I didn't fuss about her hands and wrists.    Thanks!   = )

[Bob]

Ask why.  Maybe there's a reason.  Or maybe she's just being lazy. 

Maybe tell her she's putting that effort into the wood of the piano instead of the keys.  It's a lot easier to drop into the keys and let gravity do the work. 

[go12_3]

Ask why.  Maybe there's a reason.  Or maybe she's just being lazy. 

Maybe tell her she's putting that effort into the wood of the piano instead of the keys.  It's a lot easier to drop into the keys and let gravity do the work. 

  She could be lazy.  I never had a student like this.  Drains me after I teach her though.  I tried to have her hands drop into the keys.....I'll do anything and I'll keep an eye for more responses.....and get some ideas.  I can't make not lazy, it's part of her personality.  I wonder what the reason would be.....hummmmm.....

[pianowolfi]

I am very strict at this. There's just no way playing like that, and I use to explain to them why. I say that in this position all the tendons, muscles, nerves and everything else that has to move inside the arm needs to go around the edge and causes friction and that they will damage their hands this way. Usually they understand, I use to illustrate that as clearly as possible. Then of course I need to repeat 100 times "make your hands free" but after a while it works. If not, there might be actually a sort of psychological war going on, which I hope is not the case here. But if it is the case, she wants to test you and you are in the "wonderful" situation to prove your authority.

[quantum]

What about trying to create awareness between hand positions.  Have her play something in her favoured position, correct position, and wrists excessively high.  Sometimes the issue is they can't feel, or don't notice the difference.  Since she is 7, make a game of it. 

[go12_3]

The thing about my student's hands are that they won't do anything.  I've told her patiently.....too young to understand.  Plus,  I think her left hand seems like it has a physical malfunction.  It's like her hands are quite stiff all the time yet she can strike the keys.  Perhaps, I need to let her just play the keyboard.  I don't know what it is.....something I have to work on as a teacher.  When I pick up her hands, my word, they are heavy, I mean heavy but not stiff.  There is no lightness with her hands.  I wonder about the physical part......I don't know what to say to the parent.  I can't just give up on my student either.  She likes to play.  Wow, it can be frustrating to teach young students.  But usually they comprehend about lifting the wrists without my 1000 repeats......oh, my..........hummmmmmmmmmm   

[Bob]

Haha.  Only a thousand repeats?

I picture a little girl sitting at the piano resting her wrists on the wood board in front of the keyboard.  Just using her fingers to play the keys.  I'm wondering if that's right now. 

If I were the teacher I would probably keep reminding her and would probably do something like put my hand on my chin, tell her how much work it is to hold my head up... Stop moving my jaw when I talk because that is SOOOO much work... Maybe I could have someone push me around in a wheelchair so I don't have to walk.   Start talking like that.

Or does she hit her wrists while she plays?  Maybe have her put her finger tips on the keys and move her wrist around. 

[quantum]

Have you asked her why she likes to play with hands in such a position?

[go12_3]

Have you asked her why she likes to play with hands in such a position?

She'll say, "I dunno."  But I will ask her next week at her lesson  = )

[go12_3]

Haha.  Only a thousand repeats?

I picture a little girl sitting at the piano resting her wrists on the wood board in front of the keyboard.  Just using her fingers to play the keys.  I'm wondering if that's right now. 

If I were the teacher I would probably keep reminding her and would probably do something like put my hand on my chin, tell her how much work it is to hold my head up... Stop moving my jaw when I talk because that is SOOOO much work... Maybe I could have someone push me around in a wheelchair so I don't have to walk.   Start talking like that.

Or does she hit her wrists while she plays?  Maybe have her put her finger tips on the keys and move her wrist around. 

thanks, Bob for the tip, about how much work it takes to walk, and talk and hold my head up.  She doesn't hit her wrists while she plays.   =)

[quantum]

She'll say, "I dunno."  But I will ask her next week at her lesson  = )

Then give her multiple choice for her to pick if she dunno.  Sometimes when kids say "I dunno" they may be afraid of expressing themselves.  Maybe she does not have the language to express why.   Is it because she feels it easier to play like that?  Is it because proper technique gives here some sort of problems.  Does she feel pain in her hands?  

There must be a deeper reason on why she keeps insisting to playing her way.  Most kids love to absorb knowledge.  

[go12_3]

Then give her multiple choice for her to pick if she dunno.  Sometimes when kids say "I dunno" they may be afraid of expressing themselves.  Maybe she does not have the language to express why.   Is it because she feels it easier to play like that?  Is it because proper technique gives here some sort of problems.  Does she feel pain in her hands?  

There must be a deeper reason on why she keeps insisting to playing her way.  Most kids love to absorb knowledge.  

I agree with you.  She is a very quiet girl.  I'm going to ask her if she feels pain in her hands though.....thanks for the tip.  =)

[morningstar]

How old is she? My teacher used to have a way to stop my younger brother doing that when he was younger: She compared his hands to water striders, the spiders that walk on the water. She said if the spider drops inward the water tension breaks and the spider sinks but if it stays up it stay above the surface. If she is young enough she might see what you mean.
Of course she could be actively resisting you. "I dunno" could mean anything from "I actually don't know" to "I 'm too lazy" to "Because I hate playing piano".

[go12_3]

How old is she? My teacher used to have a way to stop my younger brother doing that when he was younger: She compared his hands to water striders, the spiders that walk on the water. She said if the spider drops inward the water tension breaks and the spider sinks but if it stays up it stay above the surface. If she is young enough she might see what you mean.
Of course she could be actively resisting you. "I dunno" could mean anything from "I actually don't know" to "I 'm too lazy" to "Because I hate playing piano".

Thank you for the tips....she is 7 years old.  And could be resisting....I have a plan on what to do though. and will try out the water strider concept with her.  = )

[Bob]

If she's seven, tell you just painted or stained and varnished the piano.  She can't put her hands on the wood part.  It's not allowed. 

So cruel... (Bob wonders if there's a way to put tacs on the wooden part of the piano.)

Make it game.  Or bribe her and give her a sticker if she doesn't.

[go12_3]

If she's seven, tell you just painted or stained and varnished the piano.  She can't put her hands on the wood part.  It's not allowed. 

So cruel... (Bob wonders if there's a way to put tacs on the wooden part of the piano.)

Make it game.  Or bribe her and give her a sticker if she doesn't.

Bob,  I love that suggestion!  The tacs made me laugh!  I needed your sense of humor!  Thanks,   go12_3   = )

[nyonyo]

Seven year old is not young. Even at 4, children know what we want.
Most likely she does not like to play the piano.

In the past, I put coin on the top of the hand, and told them not to drop the coin.
If I were you, I would tell hear clearly to play with correct hand position. If she does not want to change, you just need to give her up. I see no point to teach her. If you cannot fix the problem, it means you are not a good teacher for her. You cannot handle her, you should be willing to lose her.

[kitty on the keys]

Yeah Bob ! Use a variety of sizes when you need the tacts!  The larger ones are not as sharp as the smaller ones. It gets the point across---and usually no blood is shed---lol. Dont for get---the wrist bone is a heavy bone---and dropping the wrist is easier to do than to support it. You always have to check the arm and wrist---all the time---is your wrist up----and level---does your arm glide like a swan across the pond. It's part of the job--if we dont do it---it wont get done!


Kitty on the Keys

[Bob]

Humor?  Who's joking here?

Spare the rod, spoil the child.  A sharp cane nearby to back up a sharp tongue.  That's what this student needs.

A firm hand to make a loose wrist.

Instead of tacs, you might run an electrified wire along the board piece below the keys.  It's less obvious that way.  You know how children like surprises.  Just tell her it's static electricity.  She's seven.  She won't know the difference.

 

[lostinidlewonder]

Some little children I teach do not like to be told that they are wrong or that they should do something differently. I guess they are embarrassed that they might fail trying a new way. Give her confidence, admire almost how she does it in her own way, but ask her, lets try another way as well. Do not deny her a method that she has found out, but slowly edge it towards change. For fun you can sticky tape a pencil to her wrist going slightly onto the bottom of her palm to make it physically impossible to bend the wrist in her weird way. Challenge her to play with the pencils stuck to her, it distracts that you are trying to improve her hand position and plays out more like a challenging game.

[quantum]

Instead of tacs, you might run an electrified wire along the board piece below the keys.  It's less obvious that way.  You know how children like surprises.  Just tell her it's static electricity.  She's seven.  She won't know the difference.

I was thinking similar.  You know they use similar devices to keep birds from perching on surfaces so they don't poop on people below. 

[javacisnotrecognized]

I see it as follows: For what reason are you trying to change her behavior? Apparently it hasn't caused a problem for her yet, or she would already have tried to fix it herself. If there comes a time when this behavior becomes limiting (She cannot play what she wants how she wants it) or deleterious (She is suffering from a mysterious pain in her hands), then you can suggest this solution to her and no doubt she will jump at the chance to try it. Now, WE know that in the future this can cause problems, but I think she might have something else on her mind; such as trying to read the music, figure out the right keys and press them, or whatever. It might be useful to try and figure out what she IS paying attention to instead of her wrists. Then maybe you might work on that until she feels she has overcome it? Dunno.

[go12_3]

Thanks for your replies.  I appreciate that.  In fact, when I taught my student last week, she did a lot better.  I just focused upon what she was learning and her music.  Her left hand wrist will get better though in time.  I figured she is young and will improve because she does have a love of playing the piano and learning music.  I feel optimistic about her lessons in the year ahead.  I have noticed more confidence in her playing last week.  = )

[a-sharp]

I hit them over the head.

LOL

[m19834]

I don't think she is actually "resisting" you, that is just your perception because you want her to do something that you can't seem to get her to do.  But, I don't think it's actually her mission to keep from doing what you are asking, and I would tend to think this way about it :

I see it as follows: For what reason are you trying to change her behavior? Apparently it hasn't caused a problem for her yet, or she would already have tried to fix it herself. If there comes a time when this behavior becomes limiting (She cannot play what she wants how she wants it) or deleterious (She is suffering from a mysterious pain in her hands), then you can suggest this solution to her and no doubt she will jump at the chance to try it. Now, WE know that in the future this can cause problems, but I think she might have something else on her mind; such as trying to read the music, figure out the right keys and press them, or whatever. It might be useful to try and figure out what she IS paying attention to instead of her wrists. Then maybe you might work on that until she feels she has overcome it? Dunno.

It's a good advice !

[mcdiddy1]

Sounds like misbehavior.....
One thing is show her what she looks like and what she cannot do by playing like that. Play for any fast demanding, technical piece so she can see that A. wow, my teacher is good and knows what he/she is talking about, B. I can't play that way cause my wrist would slide all over the piano. Make the lesson about them and the fact that you say this now because you are concerned about the student's future. When they see you are trying to help them and not just trying to be prissy with rules that do not make sense or have no consequence they are more likely to buy in.
       A good quote I learned about behavior is rules without relationship creates rebellion. If the student does not trust you, or even like you, they will rebel. My piano teacher is a concert pianist and is very sweet and helpful and if she told me to stand on my head before practicing I probably would try!
I hope that helps

[go12_3]

My word!  How did this long ago thread appear!   
I had that problem with a resistant student last February!   And she had to quit because her parents didn't have money to pay the fees. 
My students NOW are no problem at  all.  lol   I mean, this Fall is the best in my
teaching career!  woohoo!     

best wishes,

go12_3