Have we reached the limit?

[bernhard]

Have a look here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1085703900;start=6
(Have I created an infinite loop?)

Faulty damper has raised a most interesting issue in the above thread.

I believe that due to the inherent laziness of human beings, people will rather start again a thread that has already been answered many times, then search in the forum for a similar question.

True, given the ever increasing size of the forum, such a search becomes more and more time consuming. So what is one to do both in asking and answering them?

1.      Research the whole forum before asking a question?

2.      Redirect the questioner to a relevant thread?

3.      Re-answer the question as if it was something new and never heard of?

4.      Paste our old answers?

5.      Ignore the thread since it has already been answered before?

6.      Other?

Besides, it seems that there is only a limited amount of questions that may be asked about piano playing. Are we reaching the limit? Have we asked everything there is to ask? Have we discussed everything there is to discuss, and all that is left now is to look for the answers in previous posts?

Or is this some kind of conspiracy to bring Comme le Vent back , so that new threads can be started?

Is this a new thread? Or can someone direct me to where it has already been answered?


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Antnee]

You're making my brain hurt..... Owwwwwww....

I think that pretty soon history will repeat itself, so in another year or so pianoforum will be in a sense doubled...?? You'll see many topics repeated as old questions come up but are reanswered again as if they had never been asked because most of us are too lazy to go back and find the old thread it (myself included).
Wierd huh? You are now entering...The twilight zone...


-Tony-

[willcowskitz]

I have noticed, that teaching others is the best way to teach yourself.  It works bit same as when you describe or explain something to another person, you move your hands in the air to look for "the form" of the thing you're trying to make clear - you don't do this to make the subject more clear to that other person, you do it to strengthen your own thought structures that hold the subject together while you're trying to transfer the model of it to this other person.

Same goes for here, people are foolish if they think they've learnt everything on the subject after reading through those threads - there's most probably something that nobody mentioned.  Besides, some of the posts on those threads were nonsense and they contained needless commentary in between the posts, making them strainful to read through with concentration.  Also, to bring back in the "teach yourself by teaching others" method;  If someone asks a sensible and fully justified question on the forums, by answering it you don't quote the same advices that you learnt in the past, but you try to go onto a more abstract level of what, for example a tecnical problem involves, and this makes you an especially good teacher cause you have had to really understand the solution, and it has added a strengthening pillar into your associative mind.  Only if somebody's too lazy to check if the old thread on same subject is still visible like in the last or last two pages of the thread list, he should be told to "Read The *** Manual".  Other than that, RTFM-philosophy implemented to a forum that handles such unreachable thing as the art of playing piano (at which nobody is ever going to be perfect), it only slows down true development if overused.

[xvimbi]

I second Willcowskitz opinion. Yet, there are a lot of questions that do have clearcut answers (e.g. How do the hammers work on a piano? Why is it bad to dwell in the keybed?). Those could be collected and put into a FAQ list. This, however, requires a lot of time and effort. Somebody will have to do it.

If a thread is about something that involves opinions, asks about personal experiences or involves special circumstances, I'd be more than happy to discuss it again and again. If I deem one of the previously given answers to be relevant, I'd have no problem referring to it ot pasting it. Often, however, one has revised one's stance in the meantime, so re-discussing it is a good thing and keeps the mind flexible and people up to date.

[Hmoll]

 
I believe that due to the inherent laziness of human beings, people will rather start again a thread that has already been answered many times, then search in the forum for a similar question.

I'm a curmudgeon who needs to vent:

What is the definition of Laziness? When I was younger, laziness was indicated in people who had a question/problem/project, and would not take hours researching it in the Library, or otherwise figuring it out.

That has evolved into overuse of the Internet where people obtain often spurious information and do not question the source (example: recent Amazon.com review of Fink's book).

From there it has evolved to people posting and reading a forum with a perfectly funtional "search" feature, and asking basic questions (not a real example but: "i jst strted fantasy imprmtu, lol, wazup w/the 3 agnst 4?").

Finally, it seems to have evolved to the point where people ask questions in the middle of a thread, when their question has been answered in that very thread (example: thread about best editions: "What's the best edition for Bach?" - asked and anwered).

Berhard raises a good point. He has spent hours posting valuable information here of what I suspect is hardly a fraction of his knowledge and experience as a player/teacher.

Can't we all help him out here, and do our own searching?

There. Now I feel a lot better.

[willcowskitz]

I said:  The threads listed in the "FAQ" list DO NOT necessarily provide perfect answers or solutions to the problems involved in the pieces/techniques with them.  There exists no perfect pianist, so rediscussing certain matters can add new views to them.

xvimbi said:  Yet, there are questions that DO have straight-forward, exclusive answers to them.

This is the fine line we have to draw here, I've seen people being directed to threads that answer nothing (well the one about Maksim, at least), and if this is taken to extreme, where's the benefit? Or whose is it?  The ones' that are too "lazy" to answer again, or the ones that were too "lazy" to search for the answer themselves?  Not everyone has much experience of using forums like this, and when they enter they can at first barely figure out how to post.  Of course, if someone posted crap like you gave example of, I wouldn't care if the administrator deleted it.  There has to remain a code of behaviour to certain degree for the forum to maintain it's informational value and not turn into piles of garbage "info".

If someone asks a trivial question, you COULD answer them or direct them to another thread, OR do both and as the bottomline add that its more complicable to do a little searching before posting.  

And for god's sake, there are search engines.  
Use them, educate others of them.
But don't put all responsibility on search engines and the Internet, cause then there's probably not one justified question that looks for a definite answer (opinions excluded) on this forum.

Berhard raises a good point. He has spent hours posting valuable information here of what I suspect is hardly a fraction of his knowledge and experience as a player/teacher.  

Can't we all help him out here, and do our own searching?

Yes indeed, Bernhard's contribution to this community is invaluable and I respect him for that.  This doesn't mean I'll start taking everything he says as trivial truth or the only way of seeing things.  I don't value opinions by face of the representer of them, I value them by their actual self-supportive weight.  Also, Bernhard isn't responsible to answer every stupid question that a random ADHD pre-teen posts here.  However, if I was to not bring out the point that the topics that have been discussed on the forum, haven't probably reached their perfect form as information packages yet,  I agree with Bernhard in that:

a)  People should search before asking.

b)  If you have nothing to add, no views, anything to the old topic, you can redirect the asker to an older thread.

c)  You COULD ignore, or reply with "Try the search feature."


"A"  is unquestionable truth, yet not everyone comes to think of this, or can't figure out the most effective search strings.

"B"  will motivate people to do what Bernhard calls infinite loop, and even if someone had something to add, the new topic is already dead before it began.

"C"  sounds a bit ineffective, yet there are posts that would only deserve a reply like this at most, more preferably deletion of whole topic.


I still think that if the topic wasn't discussed thoroughly just a short while ago, it can be rediscussed again.  If you don't feel motivated to participate cause you think the old threads provide perfect answers and solutions to the problem, you can ignore this new thread.  I support the idea of gathering a FAQ, but the threads in their current forms aren't applicable for this, somebody needs to do some heavy editing and filter out the most valuable information out of the pile of unnecessary comments and remarks, and even then there exist questions that don't have direct answers to them.  What if Bach was told to "read the FAQ" on keyboard playing that stated that using the thumb is illegal, and he'd be forced to satisfy himself with this solution?

[edouard]

>>>Besides, it seems that there is only a limited amount of questions that may be asked about piano playing. Are we reaching the limit?

Very valid question as it concerns the quality/relevance of the piano forum as a whole. There are a lot of redundant posts. Maybe the solution would be a better organisation of the threads...
I think it is futile to consider any selected series of posts as a 'dictionary' of piano playing. It is simply a place where people meet and exchange ideas. Take the ones you like, try them, test them, approve or reject them.
My opinion is that there is an infinity of things to discuss about piano playing (especially interpretation) and that there is an infinity of ways of approaching a particular piece. But I understand what Faulty_damper and Bernhard are getting at and I think one idea would be to expand the possibilities of the forum.
Why not make it possible to post short videos or recordings of us that actually demonstrate certain things rather than have to give contorted verbal explanations of them (however good)? I don't know much about forums so i don't know if this would overload it.
just trying to help !

edouard-

[Bob]

Hooray for laziness!  It's easier to ask a question and have someone give me the answer right away.  

Is there a way to search this site?  (I haven't looked.)


It feels good to give answers.  It makes me feel like a know something.  It's good to chew on ideas.  Doesn't it feel better to flex your mind by discussing it rather than just absorbing information?

I like to have lots of opinions on issues.  I don't think there's one answer for a lot of questions.  From what I've seen on this site, people from all over the globe use it -- You get some clashes between beliefs and concepts about what a teacher is, what a pianist should be doing, how to practice, etc.  It's interesting.

[Bob]

Speaking of reaching limits....  https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=repo;action=display;num=1086994776


Maybe there's a better way to use this site?


It's almost like there should be some AI filing these questions away or giving you suggestions for answers while you write.

[chopinetta]

umm... i was just wondering. there used to be a lot of people in this forum... and how come the thingie that counts members shows only 27.. also the top20 people show that the top1 poster had only 3 posts. what's happening? i know it's quite off-topic but oh well...

[kulahola]

Dear S.W Bernhard
If you think we have reached the limit, why do you still persist on this forum ? You are so annoying with your never ending bullet points containing such a large number of absolute comments and such a little number of valuable info. I believe this is tiring for most of us.

[bernhard]

Dear S.W Bernhard
If you think we have reached the limit, why do you still persist on this forum ? You are so annoying with your never ending bullet points containing such a large number of absolute comments and such a little number of valuable info. I believe this is tiring for most of us.

Hey remember a time when your name was Lallasvensson? (you see, I forget nothing   )

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1078819144

Reply #2 Lallasvenson (aka Kulahola) wrote:

“I agree about Bernhard, his posts are very interesting and rich of experience.”

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1078956306

Reply #4: Lallasvensson (aka Kulahola) wrote:

“Bernhard,
you are a great person!
how professional your answers are!  
I will actually print this answer and study it carefully.
Yes maybe you are right. I have too little (and not positive) experience with adult students. I will study your answer, interview one prospective student tomorrow and see what i can do...
Kindly”


https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1076431345

Reply #2: Lallasvensson (aka Kulahola) wrote:

Thank you Bernhard, that was a gret answer.


Tut, tut, tut. How wrong can one be?  

(For those in the forum who are wondering what this is all about, have a look here:
https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=pfws;action=display;num=1088171478 )

Now, why don’t you go and beat up some students? Oh! I forget you don’t actually beat up your students. All right, then, get your box of crayons and your album of stickers and go have some fun with them.

Bye bye, Adeus. Adios. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehn. Sayonara. Forever.



Best wishes,
Bernhard

[kulahola]

Bernhard do you actually have a real life ? i mean outside this forum ? I start to worry for your mental health. Indeed I thought at first what you were knowledgeable before I noticed that all your answers were very much of stereotypes without any thinking content and I had to stop reading them (not that much time in my hands to waste unfortunately). I would have died if somebody like you, unable to stop talking, had taught me. And the funny thing is that you dont even seem to perform at all !

[Saturn]

kulahola:
Perhaps a more appropriate answer would have been "touche".

And the funny thing is that you dont even seem to perform at all !

Why does a teacher need to perform?

- Saturn

[kulahola]

I  cant imagine teaching if i wasnt actively performing.
I need to be able to play my students pieces professionally and musically in order for my students to trust me 100%. I demand a lot from my students because i can give them a lot too in turn. I wouldnt liked to have studied with a teacher unable to play. A complete musician should be able to teach and perform. I am not talking about performances in Carnegie Hall necessarily. But being able to set up a program, work on it and perform it. A teacher need to keep practising otherwise how can he convince his students to practises if he doesnt himself. that s why teaching should nt be a full time job. Read Neuhaus art of playing the piano about this topic.

[Saturn]

I  cant imagine teaching if i wasnt actively performing.
I need to be able to play my students pieces professionally and musically in order for my students to trust me 100%. I demand a lot from my students because i can give them a lot too in turn. I wouldnt liked to have studied with a teacher unable to play. A complete musician should be able to teach and perform. I am not talking about performances in Carnegie Hall necessarily. But being able to set up a program, work on it and perform it. A teacher need to keep practising otherwise how can he convince his students to practises if he doesnt himself.

I think we can agree that in order for a teacher to get his students to practice, the teacher ought to be practicing himself.  Before the students can play, the teacher must know how to play.  In order for the students to know how to perform, the teacher must know how to perform.  And so on.

But that still doesn't quite explain to me why a teacher ought to be actively performing.  Why is this necessary?

that s why teaching should nt be a full time job. Read Neuhaus art of playing the piano about this topic.

I did read the book, but not the section directed at teachers.  Maybe I should borrow it from the library again and have a look at that section.

- Saturn

[kulahola]

I think we can agree that in order for a teacher to get his students to practice, the teacher ought to be practicing himself.  Before the students can play, the teacher must know how to play.  In order for the students to know how to perform, the teacher must know how to perform.  And so on.

But that still doesn't quite explain to me why a teacher ought to be actively performing.  Why is this necessary?


I did read the book, but not the section directed at teachers.  Maybe I should borrow it from the library again and have a look at that section.

- Saturn

Neuhaus explains that too many young graduated musicians start teaching too much and that this kills their musicianship. Anyway performing is the ultimate goal for making music. Both for the teachers and the student. Because music exists only when it s performed. It s not like a painting which can just be hanging somewhere in order to exist. we work on something much more instantaneous and immaterial.

[JK]

Anyway performing is the ultimate goal for making music. Both for the teachers and the student. Because music exists only when it s performed. It s not like a painting which can just be hanging somewhere in order to exist.

I disagree with this very much. Music can exist and does exist outside of performance. Even if I am just at home on my own and playing a piece I am creating music, of course noone else can hear it or listen to it but I am creating music for myself. It of course depends on what you mean by performance, do you mean in front of an audience, or would you include any kind of playing, whether it be practice, performing. Even if this is the case I don't really agree. This is a very personal feeling but I think that music does exist outside of performance and playing in general. Muisc can exist without sound. Of course it can, when I walk down the road to school I can "hear" music in my head and be moved by it. Composers such as Berlioz (who wasn't a pianist) and Beethoven (due to being deaf for much of his life) both composed music which was basically in their minds. I am starting to believe more and more that music is something that exists all the time, you can hear a piece whenever you like by thinking through it in your head etc.

I also don't agree that the goal of all music students is performance. It isn't really for me, I perform because I enjoy it, it can be exciting and it is nice to share music with other people. Music doesn't only exist when performed, so are you saying that when no performances are taking place music just suddenly ceases to be? We both know it doesn't! In a way I would say that music in performance is more superficial than music in a private environment because it has that added element of showing off, which ultimately blocks a true interpretation. In a private environment music has none of that playing to impress or playing to win stuff but is purely music as it should be.

Just my opinion.

[Shagdac]

I too agree that music can exist anywhere. And it doesn't have to be being performed. I fall asleep many a nights going over some of my favorite pieces in my mind. I also don't feel that performing should be or IS the ultimate goal for everyone. I know of composers that can't play the piano, but they still compose music. I know of teachers that don't play much, but they are excellent instructors. Whether you compose, play/perform or teach....all of these represent ultimate goals for those involved. We really could not have just one now could we. We need all three of these to have music, so I don't think we can narrow it down to just playing. I feel rather badly for someone who can only experience music when it is being performed. That most certainly would put a limit on what one could enjoy!

Also, while yes, it is helpful to have a teacher who can demonstrate, what good would it do to have a teacher who could play and perform brilliantly but not have the slightest idea how to communicate the knowledge of HOW they accomplish these things? Many individuals are better at telling someone else how to do something, than actually doing it themselves. I don't think it makes them any less of a good teacher. The one
teacher I have now, USED to compete and perform. He does not now, as he devotes 100% to teaching and his students. Although I like that he can demonstrate things or play things for me, the fact that he is not performing at the moment makes no difference whatsoever. And with as many students as he has, he gets more practice now than ever! His technique is brilliant, and playing superb.

My other teacher deals more with teaching of interpretations of the pieces, and teachings of the composers and musicality of the piece. She is an 83 woman with her masters in music and math/physics.
Not only does educate me with wonderful information on composers, and different periods of music, but her timing and sense of rhythm (I'm sure to her being a mathmetician) is impeccable. I call her the human metranome. She also has such an ear, I've never seen before. She can tell what I'm doing wrong just by listening to me. Doesn't even have to see me. And she can TELL me exactly what to do to correct it. She used to play....but with arthritis now, she cannot. However I have learned so much from her, and her not being able to demonstrate or play as much has not hindered in what she teaches me at all. It's kinda nice to have a teacher that can actually tell me about Rachmaninoff because they lived at the same time he was! Believe me, being able to play is not one of the most important things a teacher has to offer.

Anyway, as I respect everyones right to their own opinion, I just wanted to share mine too!

Thanks,
S

[Rob47]

Hahahahhahahahaha..

I too agree that kuhoolawhateverkoala's answer should have been "touche"

Is that seriously lalasvenson back under a different name? because if it is hahahahahahah wow...incredible.

Um and to add my own opinion I guess music can exist anywhere, but then I can't help but think that means I support John Cage 4'33.....  :-/

[Shagdac]

In response to Bernhards original question...have we reached the limit. We're probably close. But there are bound to be new statements if not questions to arise now and then. Many times I try to search for help with something before posting, but perhaps don't remember where I last saw it, or may use the incorrrect word in the search. Hence, I know I have asked questions on topics which have been discussed before.

I think if someone knows of a prior post that deals on the same topic, it can posted, while also allowing any new comments as well.

Also, if even 1 or 2 new pianists happen to join the forum, they may add something valuable which has not been stated on previously discussed topics.

Another point, is that many times a post will get "off topic" and there may be information included in that post you want later...but because what you are looking for and the actual "subject" of the post differ, it's hard to find.  I do however enjoy being able to "search" for various topics and in fact have gotten so much information on something I was going to ask, that I didn't need to post after all.

Just a few thoughts!

S

[mosis]

Hahahaha, I just love it when Bernhard takes the textbook out on people. Despite his professionalism, he can still ruin the sh*t of anyone who defies him. :p

[claudio]

two short notes from a newcomer here.

i) archive: i went to most of the threads available to me. however, it appears
that some discussions went into an archive that i cannot easily access. therefore
it is highly appreciated if links to older threads are posted in a thread that
only apparently to open an old discussion.

ii) limits: i do not think that there are limits to any forum discussing musical
intricacies. however, every forum tends to reach a stage when easy and
playful discussions end and real work begins 

i am confident that i am not the only one who read bernhards most excellent
analysis of JSB's invention no. 1 and i - for sure - would love to read more of
his or any others ideas on the inventions no. 2, 3, 4, etc.  or any other
composer, work, style, etc.

i went to the munich public library yesterday evening to enquire about interesting
books on bach invention analysis. to my amazement, there were only one! a well
worn 1950isch book with very limited information. lots on bach, naturally, but
very old, outdated, old... great pity.

now, i am a very enthusiastic novice piano student. however, at age 33, organizing
job, family life, etc. time for music study is relatively limited and i try to focus on
exercising as much as possible. having an internet forum where people discuss
piano playing in a pragmatic, hands-on but insightful approach is very helpful and
time-saving.

there is more to share and i urge you to move on

[ted]

I have only just started to read these other sections of the forum. Reading Bernhard’s interesting conjecture made me realise that I have never asked a question, but have always replied in order to help other people with problems. To be honest, yes, the same old chestnuts do seem to pop up regularly on this and other piano forums. Issues such as how to play one rhythm against another, what action to use for double notes, whether or not to play scales, the nature of absolute pitch,  should fingers be flat or curved ….. many of these topics are indeed  regurgitated every few months or so. An FAQ might be very helpful but, as xvimbi says, who could be bothered preparing and maintaining it ?

Many posts simply express an opinion. Mozart is marvellous, Mozart sucks, so and so talks a lot of rot …… Unless there is some intriguing angle, fact or insight behind this type of post I leave it alone because I much prefer a search for truth to a debate.

A very useful type of post is one which provides general musical information. For example, I did not realise Delius wrote piano music until Bernhard drew my attention to the fact. The other way around, many people are unaware of the quality of piano music being created by the composers of the new ragtime movement and I therefore post to draw attention to it. But again, these would be even harder to correlate into an FAQ than posts about technique or repertoire.

There is also the limitation of English language and communication at a distance. I can write many paragraphs about what I do physically when I play the Chopin study in thirds, when I play Carolina Shout or when I improvise. However, I cannot communicate at all what it feels like to do these things. In fact I doubt I could do it beyond a certain point in person. That function is best left to experienced teachers and even then I don’t understand how they do it. I certainly don’t have what it takes !

So overall, perhaps it is better to put up with a degree of repetition, debate and nonsense in the hope that some reader somewhere will get something out of it. A forum should certainly not be regarded as THE encyclopaedic reference for all piano problems. Anyone who thinks that is headed for disillusionment. Some people do tend to see it this way, but anything posted must be tried and tested personally, and anybody can be wrong. The human touch of direct communication on a forum is also much more satisfying than reading a dry textbook, or at least I find it so, and this aspect alone, coupled with its global coverage, makes a forum a unique influence for the good on piano playing even if saturation is reached in some topics. 

 

[Bob]

There's plenty of room for growth in the forum.  Jazz, early keyboard for some topics.  It could always grow by attracting more minds to the forum.  It would be interesting if the pf site was linked up with an encyclopedia of information though -- information, recordings.  I think the pf site is a good place to digest or develop ideas by interacting with people.  It's not necessarily so much what IS as what YOU think.

[Ed Thomas]

Internet Forums are about people.   We all meet here to share information and inspire each other in our mutual love of music.  So saying the same things repeatedly is as okay as the daily conversation that goes on in any happy household. 

As for reaching the limits of information, I am not sure the question hits the right target.  As a teaching platforum (neat new word, eh? ), consider comparing it to real-time teaching.  Can we make a video of perfect technique that will apply to everyone?  Could we videotape 4 years of conservatory lessons and that would be the last word on teaching piano?  Obviously not.  The reason for individual lessons is because of the individual.  Ideal teaching is usually tutorial.

The Piano Forum is not just a collection of facts; it is a dynamic interchange between people.  So a big part of the giving and taking knowledge is the approximation of contact.  "George, you must know by now that putting your hand in a flypress before a concert will make it nearly impossible to reach those 10ths in that Rach Concerto.  We discussed that 2 years ago."

Yes, some questions about bald facts can be mined from the past... and should.  But how often do we do the same thing in normal conversation?

"Julie, do you remember if Chopin had 8 fingers on his left hand?" 
"You Ninny!  Look it up.  I'm not going to tell you the answer again!  Let's go get some coffee."

Besides, I need another post to get over this dang "Newbie" label.