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Feux Follets recommended fingering (Read 7235 times)

Offline airasia

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Feux Follets recommended fingering
« on: January 30, 2009, 08:31:38 PM »
The sheet music I have doesn't have any recommended fingering really, and during one part of the double note section, I'm kind of in disbelief as to what I think the typical fingering is. You have to know the piece well to know what I'm talking about, but the part when the melody crescendos slightly in the double-note section. It goes "A repeated, Bflat repeated, A repeated, Aflat repeated, G repeated." From what I see in some unclear, super-fast youtube videos is 4th and 5th finger alternating on each repeated note, but this seems impossible, especially on a heavy, slow action piano which I have. I just want to know if I'm seeing this correctly, and whether I am or am not seeing it correctly, are there any other ways to facilitate this one part?

Right now I'm playing around with 44, 44, 55, 44, 55, on this heavy piano, but it seems to be too clumsy.  This little part seems to be the only really big problem.

Offline ryguillian

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 08:46:48 PM »
Left (0 => 9, 1 => 5, 2 => 6, 7 => 9, etc.)
Right (0 => 1, 0 <= 6, 10 => X, NaCL + 02, etc.)

Although you might want to substitute 10 => Y, X/2 if you can't span it.

Let me know if you need clarification.
“Our civilization is decadent and our language—so the argument runs—must inevitably share in the general collapse.”
Politics and the English Language, an essay by George Orwell

Offline pokeythepenguin

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 09:00:31 PM »
I've always told my students that practicing and learning fingerings is not only bad luck, but is going to destroy their musicality.  If there isn't spontaneity, then the music will just be boring.  Let your heart tell your fingers where to go.

But if that really doesn't work, either try ryan's suggestion (even if it is a bit wacky; he's into this new school of playing with your brain, while I think you should let Jesus guide you) or you could try 1       breq1 2627   . . 3 |- (y = A -> (y < n <-> A < n))
2   1   rexbidv 1667   . 2 |- (y = A -> (E.n e. NN y < n <-> E.n e. NN A < n))
3       nnunb 6072   . . . 4 |- -. E.y e. RR A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y)
4       ralnex 1656   . . . 4 |- (A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) <-> -. E.y e. RR A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y))
5   3, 4   mpbir 190   . . 3 |- A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y)
6       axlttri 5515   . . . . . . . . 9 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. RR) -> (y < n <-> -. (y = n \/ n < y)))
7       nnret 5931   . . . . . . . . 9 |- (n e. NN -> n e. RR)
8   6, 7   sylan2 453   . . . . . . . 8 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (y < n <-> -. (y = n \/ n < y)))
9       eqcom 1480   . . . . . . . . . . 11 |- (y = n <-> n = y)
10   9   orbi1i 256   . . . . . . . . . 10 |- ((y = n \/ n < y) <-> (n = y \/ n < y))
11       orcom 246   . . . . . . . . . 10 |- ((n = y \/ n < y) <-> (n < y \/ n = y))
12   10, 11   bitr 173   . . . . . . . . 9 |- ((y = n \/ n < y) <-> (n < y \/ n = y))
13   12   negbii 187   . . . . . . . 8 |- (-. (y = n \/ n < y) <-> -. (n < y \/ n = y))
14   8, 13   syl6bb 538   . . . . . . 7 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (y < n <-> -. (n < y \/ n = y)))
15   14   biimprd 154   . . . . . 6 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (-. (n < y \/ n = y) -> y < n))
16   15   r19.22dva 1742   . . . . 5 |- (y e. RR -> (E.n e. NN -. (n < y \/ n = y) -> E.n e. NN y < n))
17       rexnal 1657   . . . . 5 |- (E.n e. NN -. (n < y \/ n = y) <-> -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y))
18   16, 17   syl5ibr 207   . . . 4 |- (y e. RR -> (-. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) -> E.n e. NN y < n))
19   18   r19.20i 1707   . . 3 |- (A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) -> A.y e. RR E.n e. NN y < n)
20   5, 19   ax-mp 7   . 2 |- A.y e. RR E.n e. NN y < n
21   2, 20   vtoclri 1862   1 |- (A e. RR -> E.n e. NN A < n)

Offline airasia

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 09:05:10 PM »
lol ok, but anyone that's tried playing or has looked a bit at this piece should know what I'm talking about.  I guess it's not exactly the main melody since the left hand is playing it at this moment.  But for people that don't know what I'm talking about, watch :27 and :29 in this video and that's the part:

&feature=related

Offline ryguillian

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 09:10:27 PM »
lol ok, but anyone that's tried playing or has looked a bit at this piece should know what I'm talking about.  I guess it's not exactly the main melody since the left hand is playing it at this moment.  But for people that don't know what I'm talking about, watch :27 and :29 in this video and that's the part:

&feature=related

You seem like a nice girl. =)
“Our civilization is decadent and our language—so the argument runs—must inevitably share in the general collapse.”
Politics and the English Language, an essay by George Orwell

Offline pokeythepenguin

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 09:11:20 PM »
&feature=related


Very nice.  How much? :-*

Offline ryguillian

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 09:12:44 PM »
I've always told my students that practicing and learning fingerings is not only bad luck, but is going to destroy their musicality.  If there isn't spontaneity, then the music will just be boring.  Let your heart tell your fingers where to go.

But if that really doesn't work, either try ryan's suggestion (even if it is a bit wacky; he's into this new school of playing with your brain, while I think you should let Jesus guide you) or you could try 1       breq1 2627   . . 3 |- (y = A -> (y < n <-> A < n))
2   1   rexbidv 1667   . 2 |- (y = A -> (E.n e. NN y < n <-> E.n e. NN A < n))
3       nnunb 6072   . . . 4 |- -. E.y e. RR A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y)
4       ralnex 1656   . . . 4 |- (A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) <-> -. E.y e. RR A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y))
5   3, 4   mpbir 190   . . 3 |- A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y)
6       axlttri 5515   . . . . . . . . 9 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. RR) -> (y < n <-> -. (y = n \/ n < y)))
7       nnret 5931   . . . . . . . . 9 |- (n e. NN -> n e. RR)
8   6, 7   sylan2 453   . . . . . . . 8 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (y < n <-> -. (y = n \/ n < y)))
9       eqcom 1480   . . . . . . . . . . 11 |- (y = n <-> n = y)
10   9   orbi1i 256   . . . . . . . . . 10 |- ((y = n \/ n < y) <-> (n = y \/ n < y))
11       orcom 246   . . . . . . . . . 10 |- ((n = y \/ n < y) <-> (n < y \/ n = y))
12   10, 11   bitr 173   . . . . . . . . 9 |- ((y = n \/ n < y) <-> (n < y \/ n = y))
13   12   negbii 187   . . . . . . . 8 |- (-. (y = n \/ n < y) <-> -. (n < y \/ n = y))
14   8, 13   syl6bb 538   . . . . . . 7 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (y < n <-> -. (n < y \/ n = y)))
15   14   biimprd 154   . . . . . 6 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (-. (n < y \/ n = y) -> y < n))
16   15   r19.22dva 1742   . . . . 5 |- (y e. RR -> (E.n e. NN -. (n < y \/ n = y) -> E.n e. NN y < n))
17       rexnal 1657   . . . . 5 |- (E.n e. NN -. (n < y \/ n = y) <-> -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y))
18   16, 17   syl5ibr 207   . . . 4 |- (y e. RR -> (-. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) -> E.n e. NN y < n))
19   18   r19.20i 1707   . . 3 |- (A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) -> A.y e. RR E.n e. NN y < n)
20   5, 19   ax-mp 7   . 2 |- A.y e. RR E.n e. NN y < n
21   2, 20   vtoclri 1862   1 |- (A e. RR -> E.n e. NN A < n)

At first I thought you were joking, but then I realized that my thumbs *could* extend like that. Hrm. Interesting. I will integrate this into my Anatomical Studies volume XII.b
“Our civilization is decadent and our language—so the argument runs—must inevitably share in the general collapse.”
Politics and the English Language, an essay by George Orwell

Offline pokeythepenguin

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 09:13:52 PM »
At first I thought you were joking, but then I realized that my thumbs *could* extend like that. Hrm. Interesting. I will integrate this into my Anatomical Studies volume XII.b

It's the Sicilian-Archimedian thumb-over-thumb technique.  Defensive, not offensive.

Offline ryguillian

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 09:19:58 PM »
It's the Sicilian-Archimedian thumb-over-thumb technique.  Defensive, not offensive.

Busoni didn't like this type of talk, but I'm starting to wonder about the legitimacy of his position on these matters for the following reasons.

1. If it wasn't his position to establish a technique of great heights (of which his was certainly a fine exponent [no pun intended]), there would be at least some "residue" from this technique in notebooks, etc. but we have none of that.

2. If we weren't so adamant as a people on histographical-musico relationships then we might realize that there was a certain level of improvisation implicit in any such mechanistic relationship between written score and piano technique. Not limited to the five masterful etude of Liszt (by which I mean the ones that are meaningful in the "Douzes etudes").

3. If we look at the metrical relationships of Busoni's fingers to the anatomical realities of the modern man hand we'll realize that there exists a multiplicity of gestures which might be derived from, again, the written text. Perhaps a "Physiological Urtext" of sort would be in order, but this is a project I do not want to embark on.

4. Notwithstanding the Piano Concerto, Busoni seems to believe in an implicit or "understood" technique with listeners that wouldn't have stemmed from a natural system of technique-gathering that was well under way in the time of Liszt, and we might even notice some currents of this in Chopin and Skryjabin.

I hope this makes this clear. But nonetheless, I digress.
“Our civilization is decadent and our language—so the argument runs—must inevitably share in the general collapse.”
Politics and the English Language, an essay by George Orwell

Offline airasia

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 09:21:34 PM »
I don't normally take much heed to suggested fingerings for any pieces, unless I run into a problem like this one, so since there is no suggested fingering on the sheet music and I have no teacher at the moment, I'm just wondering what most people do for this one part and then from there I can tweak it if I don't like it.

Offline pokeythepenguin

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 09:27:37 PM »
Busoni didn't like this type of talk, but I'm starting to wonder about the legitimacy of his position on these matters for the following reasons.

1. If it wasn't his position to establish a technique of great heights (of which his was certainly a fine exponent [no pun intended]), there would be at least some "residue" from this technique in notebooks, etc. but we have none of that.

2. If we weren't so adamant as a people on histographical-musico relationships then we might realize that there was a certain level of improvisation implicit in any such mechanistic relationship between written score and piano technique. Not limited to the five masterful etude of Liszt (by which I mean the ones that are meaningful in the "Douzes etudes").

3. If we look at the metrical relationships of Busoni's fingers to the anatomical realities of the modern man hand we'll realize that there exists a multiplicity of gestures which might be derived from, again, the written text. Perhaps a "Physiological Urtext" of sort would be in order, but this is a project I do not want to embark on.

4. Notwithstanding the Piano Concerto, Busoni seems to believe in an implicit or "understood" technique with listeners that wouldn't have stemmed from a natural system of technique-gathering that was well under way in the time of Liszt, and we might even notice some currents of this in Chopin and Skryjabin.

I hope this makes this clear. But nonetheless, I digress.

While it would be most fashionable to disagree (given the setting, although, in regards to a more macrological view-point of such a "setting", I suppose it would be difficult to ascertain, and thus at least a modicum more difficult to enunciate just what "fashionable" is, particularly if you are not of a Humanistic persuasion (although correct me of I'm wrong, and I know I have been wrong at least once or twice in matters such as these, although I would only hope that this not be the case (certainly considering the depth to which I am writing this response, as what you say is very near and dear to me, Busoni being a favored composer of mine (and I'd like to note that I have, in fact, learned quite a few things in my library studying his scores, many of which have furthered my own compositional technique (and I should note that none have had such an impact on my writing as Sorabji (rest in peace) (who also greatly respected and revered Busoni)))))) I can not at this time do such a thing, due to the fact that I do, in fact, whole-heartedly, feel in opposition to that which I noted, that of the thing to which I wish to (or to not) do.

Offline ryguillian

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 09:58:12 PM »
While it would be most fashionable to disagree (given the setting, although, in regards to a more macrological view-point of such a "setting", I suppose it would be difficult to ascertain, and thus at least a modicum more difficult to enunciate just what "fashionable" is, particularly if you are not of a Humanistic persuasion (although correct me of I'm wrong, and I know I have been wrong at least once or twice in matters such as these, although I would only hope that this not be the case (certainly considering the depth to which I am writing this response, as what you say is very near and dear to me, Busoni being a favored composer of mine (and I'd like to note that I have, in fact, learned quite a few things in my library studying his scores, many of which have furthered my own compositional technique (and I should note that none have had such an impact on my writing as Sorabji (rest in peace) (who also greatly respected and revered Busoni)))))) I can not at this time do such a thing, due to the fact that I do, in fact, whole-heartedly, feel in opposition to that which I noted, that of the thing to which I wish to (or to not) do.

Keep your self-referential, nested, Fascist fodder out of this Forum.
“Our civilization is decadent and our language—so the argument runs—must inevitably share in the general collapse.”
Politics and the English Language, an essay by George Orwell

Offline airasia

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 10:02:06 PM »
I've always told my students that practicing and learning fingerings is not only bad luck, but is going to destroy their musicality.  If there isn't spontaneity, then the music will just be boring.  Let your heart tell your fingers where to go.

Yeah, that works... for something on the level of Fur Elise or Moonlight (exaggerating).  I wanna see someone look at the double-note section of Feux Follets and spontaneously play with musicality without thinking and feeling out a fingering first, please...

I have another question you can ponder: Is it possible for one to ask a simple question on any internet forum and just get a quick simple answer without some lifeless nerds with time to interject with sarcastic essays back and forth while they could actually be improving their existence?

Offline javacisnotrecognized

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 10:29:48 PM »
I have another question you can ponder: Is it possible for one to ask a simple question on any internet forum and just get a quick simple answer without some lifeless nerds with time to interject with sarcastic essays back and forth while they could actually be improving their existence?

No.

Offline ahkow

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #14 on: February 06, 2009, 11:30:33 AM »
that part starting from the a flat i think they use 3 5 4 5 (Ascending) 5 4 5 4 5 4 5 4 (Descending) 4 5 4 5 (Back to the trill)

Offline rob47

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #15 on: February 06, 2009, 03:34:23 PM »
Skryjabin.

Unless you're German you don't need the 'J'. In German, the 'J' by itself does the job of the 'Y'. Since you're American, why not consider spelling it 'Scriabin'?

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Offline rob47

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #16 on: February 06, 2009, 06:34:10 PM »
.....apparently I may be incorrect 8)
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #17 on: February 06, 2009, 08:13:29 PM »
.....apparently I may be incorrect 8)

In Germany we use to write Skrjabin. Russians have told me that the emphasis is on the second to last syllable: Skrjabin.

Actually that's not my concern right now though. I rather am a bit scared of that code above, that looks cryptic:
I've always told my students that practicing and learning fingerings is not only bad luck, but is going to destroy their musicality.  If there isn't spontaneity, then the music will just be boring.  Let your heart tell your fingers where to go.

But if that really doesn't work, either try ryan's suggestion (even if it is a bit wacky; he's into this new school of playing with your brain, while I think you should let Jesus guide you) or you could try 1       breq1 2627   . . 3 |- (y = A -> (y < n <-> A < n))
2   1   rexbidv 1667   . 2 |- (y = A -> (E.n e. NN y < n <-> E.n e. NN A < n))
3       nnunb 6072   . . . 4 |- -. E.y e. RR A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y)
4       ralnex 1656   . . . 4 |- (A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) <-> -. E.y e. RR A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y))
5   3, 4   mpbir 190   . . 3 |- A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y)
6       axlttri 5515   . . . . . . . . 9 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. RR) -> (y < n <-> -. (y = n \/ n < y)))
7       nnret 5931   . . . . . . . . 9 |- (n e. NN -> n e. RR)
8   6, 7   sylan2 453   . . . . . . . 8 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (y < n <-> -. (y = n \/ n < y)))
9       eqcom 1480   . . . . . . . . . . 11 |- (y = n <-> n = y)
10   9   orbi1i 256   . . . . . . . . . 10 |- ((y = n \/ n < y) <-> (n = y \/ n < y))
11       orcom 246   . . . . . . . . . 10 |- ((n = y \/ n < y) <-> (n < y \/ n = y))
12   10, 11   bitr 173   . . . . . . . . 9 |- ((y = n \/ n < y) <-> (n < y \/ n = y))
13   12   negbii 187   . . . . . . . 8 |- (-. (y = n \/ n < y) <-> -. (n < y \/ n = y))
14   8, 13   syl6bb 538   . . . . . . 7 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (y < n <-> -. (n < y \/ n = y)))
15   14   biimprd 154   . . . . . 6 |- ((y e. RR /\ n e. NN) -> (-. (n < y \/ n = y) -> y < n))
16   15   r19.22dva 1742   . . . . 5 |- (y e. RR -> (E.n e. NN -. (n < y \/ n = y) -> E.n e. NN y < n))
17       rexnal 1657   . . . . 5 |- (E.n e. NN -. (n < y \/ n = y) <-> -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y))
18   16, 17   syl5ibr 207   . . . 4 |- (y e. RR -> (-. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) -> E.n e. NN y < n))
19   18   r19.20i 1707   . . 3 |- (A.y e. RR -. A.n e. NN (n < y \/ n = y) -> A.y e. RR E.n e. NN y < n)
20   5, 19   ax-mp 7   . 2 |- A.y e. RR E.n e. NN y < n
21   2, 20   vtoclri 1862   1 |- (A e. RR -> E.n e. NN A < n)

What is this, lol? Ancient Egyptian translated into html or css?
I thought I had only 10 fingers. Did I miss something?  :o

Offline jlh

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #18 on: February 06, 2009, 08:20:09 PM »
I've always told my students that practicing and learning fingerings is not only bad luck, but is going to destroy their musicality.  If there isn't spontaneity, then the music will just be boring.  Let your heart tell your fingers where to go.

But if that really doesn't work, either try ryan's suggestion (even if it is a bit wacky; he's into this new school of playing with your brain, while I think you should let Jesus guide you) or you could try 1[...]


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  ;D
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "”””””””\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline richard black

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 12:14:16 AM »
Quote
I thought I had only 10 fingers. Did I miss something?

That's just the point. If you have only 10 fingers, you are going to have trouble with feux-follets. OP - the reason you're not getting any help is because we all gave up on the blasted thing years ago!
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline javacisnotrecognized

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #20 on: February 07, 2009, 12:26:38 AM »
What is this, lol? Ancient Egyptian translated into html or css?
I thought I had only 10 fingers. Did I miss something?  :o

They are mathematical proofs from Metamath proof explorer: http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/mmset.html.

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #21 on: February 07, 2009, 11:53:04 AM »
They are mathematical proofs from Metamath proof explorer: http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/mmset.html.

Yeah that's how it looks. But how does it relate to fingerings? Or is it actually the mathematically proven way of a "feux-follet" in the darkness?

Offline claude_debussy

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #22 on: February 08, 2009, 04:40:55 AM »


your quote...  "I have another question you can ponder: Is it possible for one to ask a simple question on any internet forum and just get a quick simple answer without some lifeless nerds with time to interject with sarcastic essays back and forth while they could actually be improving their existence?"

quite so

you deserve better than you're getting here

(insufferable idiots who think they're poking fun at you - but you called them out correctly, lifeless nerds)

post the bar number where you question arises and i'll weigh in to help -

peace, claude


Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #23 on: February 08, 2009, 12:31:35 PM »
Wow I thought I knew the fingering for this piece.... Must take this all with a pinch of the NaCl, I must relearn now ;)
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
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Offline pokeythepenguin

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #24 on: February 10, 2009, 12:55:03 AM »

your quote...  "I have another question you can ponder: Is it possible for one to ask a simple question on any internet forum and just get a quick simple answer without some lifeless nerds with time to interject with sarcastic essays back and forth while they could actually be improving their existence?"

quite so

you deserve better than you're getting here

(insufferable idiots who think they're poking fun at you - but you called them out correctly, lifeless nerds)

post the bar number where you question arises and i'll weigh in to help -

peace, claude



Perhaps you are right.


Here you go!  This fingering should be of more help:


Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #25 on: February 10, 2009, 01:42:44 AM »
Maybe everyone thinks that the original poster is joking about thats why no one is taking it seriously. Bar 19 is in question. Simply state which bars you are interested in, it is a lot more clearer for people and they wont think you are taking the piss :) try for the downward movement 5(Bb)4(A)4(A)3(G#) 5443
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Offline m

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #26 on: February 11, 2009, 02:48:53 PM »

Right now I'm playing around with 44, 44, 55, 44, 55, on this heavy piano, but it seems to be too clumsy.  This little part seems to be the only really big problem.

Wait until you move your tempo  :D...
I don't really see where in this piece it is possible to use the fingereing you indicated.
I play the ascending passage in double notes with 3(F)4(F#)3(F#)5(G) 3(G#)4(A)5(A)4(Bb)5(Bb).
The main difficulty of this passage is in its phrasing.
 

Best, M

Offline pokeythepenguin

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Re: Feux Follets recommended fingering
«Reply #27 on: February 15, 2009, 01:51:57 PM »