Smooth arpeggios - is it in the wrists or elbows?

[tunneller]

Hi, when I do a one-handed arpeggio on black keys in one direction it sounds really great, like a musical wave rushing up the piano, coming back in the other direction sounds weaker and occasionally one note or another is slightly quieter/rushed/missed. Clearly something I need to fix by practice, but I want to make sure I'm practicing the optimal technique.

I've found two "theories" online, likely I have not fully understood them, but here's what I've picked up: one does a sort of "cartwheeling" motion of the hand with wrist rotation (i.e. rotation about vertical axis) and minimal elbow rotation The other seems to want to minimize wrist rotation and does rotation along hand/elbow axis.

The latter makes my arpeggios jerky when I go from fingers 5<->1 but maybe that's because I've only been practising wrist rotation.

What are your recomendations?

Thanks, John

[richard black]

What are your recomendations?

Analyse the motions you make in the 'good' direction and reverse them. Same thing as parking a car- most people can get out of a parking space no bother, so just figure exactly how you do that and reverse it!

[go12_3]

Definitely not the elbows.  A slightly higher and relaxed wrist and the arm does the moving up and down of the arpeggios. 

[tunneller]

Definitely agree arms sweep up and down and with the finger doing the key basically in line with the arm, but there still remains what to do with the wrist.

I figure wrist can flex up/down and it can rotate around vertical axis, so by "elbow" I am referring to rotating the wrist about a horizontal axis perpendicular to piano (e.g. like with Thumbs-over on scales, or the Taubman videos), not actually moving the elbow. Rotating the wrist takes the finger in a direction different to the arm, it looks like the hand is moving in towards the piano then out again for the next chord.

I've been practising both since posting. Going "up" with the RH both ways are pretty smooth and fast. Coming down, I *think* I have more uniform sound to the keys when I do the elbow rotation, but then it is more jerky when I go onto next chord.

[jlh]

Don't move the elbows back and forth.  Let your elbows hang loosely and comfortably.  You should also keep your wrists relaxed and uniform.  Try to find a position for the wrists that allows you to simply move to the next hand position fluidly and using as little unnecessary motion as possible.

[javacisnotrecognized]

I can try to explain to you all the motions and things you need to use here (Complete with videos on Youtube) but, I want to know: Are we talking about the right hand or the left hand here? And is it going up or down which sounds weak?

[go12_3]

It just depends whether you are left or right handed.  One or the other hand may be more dominant in playing piano.  That's why we do technical exercises in order to have an equal eveness of sound and smoothness as we play with both hands.  I find that going up is easier on some of the arperggios, however, it depends upon the major/minor key that you are playing too.  For instance, the D major arpeggio is easier going up and down.  But the Bb Major requires some wrist rotation as indicated by tunneller's post.  I think it is something that each pianist has to try out what is most comfortable in doing the arpeggios.  I agree with the elbows yo hang loosely.  Good point.  The less tension, the better the hands and fingers will strike each key.  And in order to strike each key, the weight needs to distribute from the shoulders, down through the arms and unto the fingertips, in order to keep an even tone and separate each note in the arpeggios.  Therefore, the weight comes from being relaxed. 

[tunneller]

Right hand, all black keys. This is the for legato arpeggios in the middle of Chopin's 10-5 etude.

Going up smooth, coming down weak.

Videos on YouTube would be cool!

Regards, John

[javacisnotrecognized]

Right hand, all black keys. This is the for legato arpeggios in the middle of Chopin's 10-5 etude.

Going up smooth, coming down weak.

Videos on YouTube would be cool!

Regards, John

I thought you were talking about straight up and down arpeggios, sorry I'm still trying to figure out what you are also! I think it's a combination of the elbow AND the wrist to some degree . .

[go12_3]

Still no elbow.....

[tunneller]

I should never have mentioned elbows :-)

But you know what I mean right? When you do thumb-over scales then each hand position does a series of rotations along the axis of the arm. Radius over ulna or some such.

 

[go12_3]

Thank you for clarifying about the elbow , tunneller 

[javacisnotrecognized]

I should never have mentioned elbows :-)

But you know what I mean right? When you do thumb-over scales then each hand position does a series of rotations along the axis of the arm. Radius over ulna or some such.

 

Well that is just the thing - for ascending you have to pass the thumb using a wrist motion. When descending you use the elbow to position the wrist (And thumb) on the right key. See

, for example, you can see her elbow starts really moving at the descending arpeggios starting around :36. But the arpeggios you're talking about don't involve passing the hand over the thumb IIRC, so I'm not sure how this would apply.

[go12_3]

I did watch the video.  She is sitting little too high on the piano bench. Her arms need to be more square, the 90 degree angle. However, I noticed she didn't use as much elbow, just slightly on desending though.  Thanks for sharing that.  Like I said before, we as pianists need to do what is most comfortable for us in order to produce a solid tone musicically.

[tunneller]

Wow, I am completely humbled by an 8-yr old :-)

That piece sounds much harder than the 10-5 I'm studying.

Thanks for the link though. It looked like she was doing the upward and downward arpeggios with wrist rotation (vertical axis) and then on the downward used her shoulder joint to to move the elbow in a bit which assisted the wrist rotation on the way down.

No particularly visible rotation at the elbow joint.

[ramseytheii]

Hi!  You all have grossly misunderstood the use of the elbow.  The elbow does not move "right or left," also there is no "wrist motion" without assistance of the elbow, especially in arpeggios, and certainly nothing depends on if you are right- or left-handed.

The elbow moves in only two ways: clockwise, and counter-clockwise.  When you go up in arpeggios, whether you play "thumb under," or so-called "thumb over," you have to have the assistance of the elbow.  Playing thumb-under requires a counter-clockwise motion of the elbow, and for those times when you use the so-called "thumb over" technique, a clockwise motion.

I love the elbows.  Elbows are like lungs, they have to breathe with the music.  They provide room for your fingers and wrist to perform feats they could not perform with unmoving and inflexible elbows.

Walter Ramsey

[go12_3]

Say, about the elbow,  do you want to look like a bird flapping its wings?  Wrists are better with a relaxed arm and that'll do the job just fine.         go12_3

[jlh]

Hi!  You all have grossly misunderstood the use of the elbow.  The elbow does not move "right or left," also there is no "wrist motion" without assistance of the elbow, especially in arpeggios, and certainly nothing depends on if you are right- or left-handed.

The elbow moves in only two ways: clockwise, and counter-clockwise.  When you go up in arpeggios, whether you play "thumb under," or so-called "thumb over," you have to have the assistance of the elbow.  Playing thumb-under requires a counter-clockwise motion of the elbow, and for those times when you use the so-called "thumb over" technique, a clockwise motion.

I love the elbows.  Elbows are like lungs, they have to breathe with the music.  They provide room for your fingers and wrist to perform feats they could not perform with unmoving and inflexible elbows.

Walter Ramsey

While I won't say you should never move your elbows, you most certainly shouldn't make a habit of using your elbow in all circumstances as you seem to suggest.  The mere mention that you cannot do anything without using your elbows calls into question your whole argument.  The second you start moving your elbows is the second you introduce tension to your whole arm, simply by flexing the muscles necessary to move the elbow, because those muscles cause your shoulders not to be relaxed as well.

The point I made is not that your elbows should be unmoving and unflexible, but that they should hang loosely and be relaxed.  If this happens they will breath with the music and be relaxed, allowing you to more efficiently do anything you want to do on the piano.

[go12_3]

I couldn't have said better myself.  Thank you, jlh    = )    go12_3

[ramseytheii]

While I won't say you should never move your elbows, you most certainly shouldn't make a habit of using your elbow in all circumstances as you seem to suggest.  The mere mention that you cannot do anything without using your elbows calls into question your whole argument.  The second you start moving your elbows is the second you introduce tension to your whole arm, simply by flexing the muscles necessary to move the elbow, because those muscles cause your shoulders not to be relaxed as well.

The point I made is not that your elbows should be unmoving and unflexible, but that they should hang loosely and be relaxed.  If this happens they will breath with the music and be relaxed, allowing you to more efficiently do anything you want to do on the piano.

I think your argument displays a natural prejudice against elbows!  First you make a rather tepid statement in support of their usage; then you say even to use them at all is to "introduce tension" and destroy the support of the shoulders.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  All the parts have to work together; if for instance using one's elbow is causing unhelpful tension in the shoulders, it is clear one is doing it wrong.

Elbows should not be passive as you describe in the second paragraph.  Rather, in many passages, and many types of passages, they have to take an active role.  The confusion comes, I suspect, from the notion that there is a "left" or "right" motion, in other words that they are to move in a linear way.  However the true motion of elbows is best described as "clockwise" and "counter-clockwise." 

A good passage to show this would perhaps be the left-hand of Rachmaninoff's Prelude in B-flat, op.23 no.2.  Playing very fast, you have to make large leaps and have the whole hand be ready to play the next thrust of notes.  The only way to do this, obviously, is to not cross over with just one finger, but to play in the so-called "thumb over" technique. 

This is the very technique that requires, in this case, a clockwise motion of the elbow.  There is nothing passive about it; the elbow is not hanging "relaxed" and just following the wrist, nor is it stationary.  Relaxation is certainly a precondition, but move it must.

Another telling passage is perhaps in the second of Prokofiev's Visions fugitives, in the 10th bar; a slightly awkward right-hand passage that is greatly relieved by a counter-clockwise motion of the elbow to get from place to place.

In general, the kind of technique that Rachmaninoff & Prokofiev used greatly favors this motion, especially Prokofiev, who often asks pianists to use all five fingers in sweeping scales and arpeggios.  Forcing the pianist to move his entire hand from place to place, is forcing him to use his elbow!

Walter Ramsey

I thought of another passage - actually several, but one which is perhaps more illustrative - and that's the coda of the second Ballade of Chopin.  On the last page, when the right hand has the towering arpeggios combining chords and single notes, the only way to play the passage without tension is to use the clockwise/counter-clockwise motion of the elbows.  Try it...

Another passage very similar would be the last E-major peroration of Ravel Toccata, also in the right hand.

[ramseytheii]

Say, about the elbow,  do you want to look like a bird flapping its wings?  Wrists are better with a relaxed arm and that'll do the job just fine.         go12_3

You're silly aren't you!  Many people say to play with the shoulders; however does that mean one should appear to be lifting weights?  Or does playing with one's wrists cause one to appear as if waving a Japanese fan?

Walter Ramsey

[go12_3]

So,  Walter,  you think me "silly"   for be it for you to utter that.  I am real serious about the elbows moving.............hummmmmm    go12_3  Have a good time playing away then.   = )  with your elbows, that is.

[javacisnotrecognized]

Wow, what a giant mess.

First let's clear some things up. I hope everyone will be able to agree on at least the following:

The elbow it self can't rotate. The elbow is just the point at which the upper arm and the forearm meet. The elbow is "attached" to the shoulder by the upper arm. (This isn't exactly accurate, but for now it's good enough).
The distance between the elbow and the shoulder (Which is the length of the upper arm) can't be changed without surgery. This means that all the places that you can move your elbow to is a sphere with it's center at the shoulder, and its radius is the length of the upper arm. Obviously there are places on the sphere you can't move your elbow to (For example, inside your own torso, and unless you're double jointed, behind you).
The idea that it is possible to play piano without "using your elbows" is rather .. absurd. It would be impossible, for example, to have both hands at the extreme ends of the keyboard and then move them close together. (A common pattern in Liszt's Mazeppa, for example).
The wrist the same: It is the point where the hand and the forearm meet (This isn't accurate either, but is good enough for now). The distance between the wrist and the elbow is fixed; if the elbow was at a fixed point in space but allowed to "rotate", then the wrist would travel in a sphere around with a radius of the length of the forearm.

What does this have to do with piano? Well for starters, if you wanted to put play an octave on the black keys, you need to move the whole hand/wrist/forearm/elbow/upper arm assembly forwards. The elbow would straighten out, and the upper arm would come forwards. So already you have both the upper arm and the elbow involved. Needless to say you could write a 4 page report about the various parts of the arm that move for every passage ever written. (Though I will refrain for now.)

And this is just the arms! There's the body and the legs to contend with too...

[go12_3]

I'm sure we appreciate your dissertation in regards to this profound topic!   

[Petter]

Play with your hands, is it really that hard.

[jlh]

It's true that the elbow itself cannot rotate... the movement we see as an elbow moving is the result and evidence of the shoulder muscles being activated in a specific way.

There is nothing wrong with activation of the larger muscles of the back, upper arm, shoulder to aid the smaller muscles in doing their job at the piano, and also to provide different angles, rhythms of the body etc to aid with passage execution.  In fact, using these muscles are what generates ease of playing.

The problem comes when these larger muscles are activated improperly and not relaxed immediately afterwards, resulting in tension from which ugly sounds are produced from the piano and overuse injuries are introduced.

The author of this thread, to whom my post was initially directed, was having difficulty with standard arpeggios and wanted to know the proper technique for them.  Should the elbows move back and forth every time the hand changes position?  That was the gist of the question.

Walter, I don't think even you would say my advice based on the original question is faulty. 

We're talking about standard arpeggios here, not the Ravel Toccata.

 

[ramseytheii]

.  Should the elbows move back and forth every time the hand changes position?

*Sigh!!!*

Walter, I don't think even you would say my advice based on the original question is faulty. 

We're talking about standard arpeggios here, not the Ravel Toccata.

 

But think about this: the Ravel Toccata offers the same technique, but in more condensed, purer form.  In an arpeggio, you have to maneuver the keys in the same way as in the last bars of the Toccata; but in an arpeggio, you can bastardize the true motion, distorting hand and arm alike.  In the Toccata, there is only one way possible physically to play it.  Such examples are very useful, for understanding the more complicated standard arpeggios!

Walter Ramsey

[jlh]

*Sigh!!!*

That was not my question, but John's.

But think about this: the Ravel Toccata offers the same technique, but in more condensed, purer form.  In an arpeggio, you have to maneuver the keys in the same way as in the last bars of the Toccata; but in an arpeggio, you can bastardize the true motion, distorting hand and arm alike.  In the Toccata, there is only one way possible physically to play it.  Such examples are very useful, for understanding the more complicated standard arpeggios!

Walter Ramsey

Actually the Toccata does not require the same technique in the last bars as standard arpeggios... the last bars require solid octave and hand/arm rotation technique,   My point, however, is that the author of this thread has difficulty and questions about a standard arpeggio.  Learning to play something that requires a modified technique does not negate the fact that certain things should be practiced with a pure technical approach.  An approach that helps get the body used to an economy of relaxed motion, and not get them all roused up thinking about HOW MUCH elbow motion they need to use.

Would you teach set theory or species counterpoint to first semester theory students? 

[tunneller]

Hi, I truy do appreciate all of the inputs although I may be parsing them through my own filter, for instance the "just use your hands" translates to "no preposterous swinging of elbows in the air - someone looking at you play would just think you were using your hand/fingers".

I also think many people have got the crux of my question which was whether the best motion to learn was one where the wrists "appear to rotate" in an axis pependicular to the piano, or about a vertical axis in which case looking from above it looks like the thumb is twisting in. The former is involves an elbow rotatation liek you do with TO scales, and the latter is assisted by tucking the elbow in slightly to assist the thumb landing. I think the general consensus here was elbow rotation.

And another said "what do what you are doing on the way up".

Going up (RH), I now realize I did, in fact, do some elbow rotation. What I'm practising  now for arpeggios and black scales is coming down (RH) is with elbow rotation but not quite perpendicular to the board, but at a slight angle so that the thumb comes down closer to the piano and when I do the counter rotation my small finger is then nicely positioned for the rotation back. (More angle for the scales than for the arpeggio.)

After practicing this for a bit it sounds more-or-less smooth already, and I showed the wife to ask her what part of my arm was moving and she said "the hand".

Just need to keep practicing to get this to sound awesome. Thanks everyone, John