Can a bad teacher ruin a student's progress??

[etcetra]

I am sure some of you know my story already, but I started piano at the age of 16.. I seemed to have progressed very fast in highschool, i was playing 3rd movement of moonlight sonata in my senior year, and overall I was happy with my progress. 

Things changed for the worse when I started my 4 year college.. I had teachers who encouraged me to play with a lot of tension.. i was assigned a lot of finger strengthening exercise because 'my fingers were too weak'.. And when i was playing in a jazz combo, I was playing on this upright... and I was always told to play louder because I could not match the volume of the trumpet and the drums.

I remember within couple of months I was having major problems with my hands.. I changed school and my teacher after 1 semester. For the longest time I felt this awkward tension everytime I played... it seems like my playing became very stiff and my progress diminished substantially.  by the time I graduated I had to stop playing for almost 2 years to recover from tendonitis.
It litearlly took me years to recover all from that.  Now that I am getting my feelings back to where it used to be, i realized how easy it is to play in some ways.. that playing the piano doesn't require whole lot of raw finger strength, but its more about control, relaxation, and balancing, or subtle adjustments you make as you play.

I've heard stories from other people who seem to struggle and ultimately spend years undoing what they have learned.. has this happen to any of you, and is this common?  how damaging can a bad advice be?

[etcetra]

what was also frustrating about that jazz combo experience was that it was very unmusical.. everyone played too loud and I was encouraged to bang on the piano... its not a good idea to play very loud if your technique is not ready to do so, but on top of that, its not a good exercise in musicality when the only dynamic in the band is ff to fff.

[frank_48]

how old are you now if you dont mind me asking?

[go12_3]

While I read your post, etcetra, I was thinking---that's real bad to get tendonitis from playing the piano.  Your wrists got so tense and that should never happen.  Did your former instructor ever become aware of the problem?  Did you use to play with the wrists too high or too low?  I wonder if most pianists experience tendonitis?

I had an experience while taking violin lessons a few months ago, that my right forearm(which is the bow arm) got so painful that I could hardly play violin.  It wasn't good to have pain.  I quit taking lessons from the instructor last month and play the way I was taught 8 years ago from my first instructor.  I don't know if my instructor was bad, but I feel that in order to enjoy playing any instrument, there should not be physical pain.  Sometimes too much technique can hinder the learning progress, as in my case with  my violin instructor. Yes, I did discuss the pain with her, but I felt her instruction didn't decrease the stress I was feeling.  I was already an advanced player but she taught me like I had to play each rhythm and note perfectly which created tension within me while taking  lessons,  and that affected my practicing at home,  "I- have- to- practice- this- her- way- in- order- to- get- better."  To me, playing an instrument involves the psychological and physiological aspect of the musician. Hopefully, in a positive way.  

To play loudly, the hands should be strong, yet never bang on the keys, it comes more from the weight of the relaxed arms, wrists and hands.  It's a good thing that you have recovered and is now playing the piano with no complications.  Best wishes to you.   And happy practicing.     go12_3

[etcetra]

frank,

I am 29 now, I started at a community college, I went to the school I mentioned when i was 21.  I changed school and  I graduated about 3 years ago spending good part of that time on rehab.

In some ways I had to completely start over, because whatever I learned was simply not working for me anymore.. I kept on getting injuries in college, my hands felt extremely tense but I never had time to really work on that problem.  Btw what does age have to do wit this, if you dont mind me asking?

go12_3

the sad thing is that I NEVER had any problem with my hands when i was in high school and I was practicing 3-4 hrs a day.. it litearlly happened with in 3-4 month of going to that college. 

It was awkward, because I was already playing really loud, but everyone wanted me to play louder.  And if you aren't equipped with the right technique to play that loud, your natural tendency is to use more strength and tension. 

I had lessons with teachers outside of school, and I noticed that they paid a lot more attention to relaxation in lessons..and they were more specific about how I can make something I am struggling with easier.  The teachers I had in school emphasized getting the right notes and right sound, but paid very little attention to whether I was relaxed playing them, and  gave no specific advice on how to play a difficult passage right.. they just told me I need to dig in, that my sound was weak.. what they say may be right, but without specific ways to tackle that problem, the natural tendency is to dig in more with more tension.

I remember being extremely tense every time I played back then.  I guess its the combination of doing that, on top all the finger exercises I did that was the problem.

[m19834]

Can a bad teacher ruin a student's progress??

Well, it depends on the student.  Any teacher only has as much influence on a student's progress as the student is willing to follow the advices given by that teacher.  Some advices may be unclear, incomplete, underinformed, OR just the opposite ... they may be expert advices perfectly tailored to the individual's exact need, but if the student doesn't grasp the concept or willingly execute it (for whatever reason), then the affect could be undesirable.  Good advice often requires concentration, persistence, work, growth and development, and sometimes the line between our work having a "good" or "bad" affect can be extremely small.

[etcetra]

well, in my case do you think it is a good advice to tell your students to play that loud, as I've described?  And isn't the fact that it happened within matter of 4 month of studying a sign that something is wrong?

I really feel like the advice I was getting was really vague.. and while the teacher may be right about my problems, that teacher did not have a specific method to work on it, other than assigning exercises.  I felt a tremendous difference working with different teachers, because they went into detail as to how my different parts of my hand should move to produce that desired sound. 

I guess the difference is like being one teacher showing you  how to balance yourself doing a dance move, the other teacher just asking you to do tons of push-ups  and muscle strengthening exercise to achieve that steadiness.. the problem with the 2nd approach is that with the right coordination and balance you don't really need all that strength and strain on your muscle to produce that kind of balance.

[frank_48]

frank,

I am 29 now, I started at a community college, I went to the school I mentioned when i was 21.  I changed school and  I graduated about 3 years ago spending good part of that time on rehab.

In some ways I had to completely start over, because whatever I learned was simply not working for me anymore.. I kept on getting injuries in college, my hands felt extremely tense but I never had time to really work on that problem.  Btw what does age have to do wit this, if you dont mind me asking?

in your first post you mentioned that you were finally starting to overcome your injuries and in someway, getting back to how your playing used to be, like when you were in highschool.

i was just curious on how long it took you to overcome your condition. i would be completely crushed if i was in your position, you have my sympathies.

[frank_48]

well, in my case do you think it is a good advice to tell your students to play that loud, as I've described?  And isn't the fact that it happened within matter of 4 month of studying a sign that something is wrong?

i reckon everyone knows there own body and limitations best, if i were you i would have told whoever was telling you to play louder, to go and shove it, as its completetly unacceptable to force a student to play FFFFF and use tension all the time, thats not what piano is about.

[go12_3]

Thanks for your reply, etcetra.  Indeed, having a teacher that would be sensitive to your progress as a student is an important aspect of developing proper technique and skills, along with learning to relax.  I think it's a personal issue that all muscians have to face or endure during the learning process.

In addressing Karli's post:  Sure, it may depend upon the student, but to what degree, as with my personal experience with my violin instructors.  I did try to follow my teacher's advice and worked hard for several weeks, but why keep on trying when I wasn't progressing afterall?  So would I be considered a "bad" student?  

[m19834]

well, in my case do you think it is a good advice to tell your students to play that loud, as I've described?

Well, sure, from what you described it seems that perhaps it was not a kind of advice you were ready to follow without harm to yourself.  Whether it was bad or good advice has more to do with how you react to it than the actual advice itself.  A good advice at the wrong time can have a bad affect.

And isn't the fact that it happened within matter of 4 month of studying a sign that something is wrong?

Yes, sure.  It is certainly cause for investigation into what is actually going on for you.

I really feel like the advice I was getting was really vague.. and while the teacher may be right about my problems, that teacher did not have a specific method to work on it, other than assigning exercises.  I felt a tremendous difference working with different teachers, because they went into detail as to how my different parts of my hand should move to produce that desired sound.

 

Well, I am not saying that the advice was perfectly tailored to you.  And, yes, I think that part of what makes a good teacher is the discerning factor in the individual teacher to give the right advice at the right time, and details can make all the difference, for sure.  In my own experience as a student, I can see where sometimes I have even been given detailed, good and even expert advice, but if I were not following it correctly, I would be getting an undesirable affect.  That is just something to be aware of.  

[go12_3]

i reckon everyone knows there own body and limitations best, if i were you i would have told whoever was telling you to play louder, to go and shove it, as its completetly unacceptable to force a student to play FFFFF and use tension all the time, thats not what piano is about.

I agree with frank here on that playing piano is not FFFF.  I don't make my students play loudly.  They play musically with the go-lightly touch.  The banging of the keyboard is not musical at all and that will indeed create tension.  

[db05]

what was also frustrating about that jazz combo experience was that it was very unmusical.. everyone played too loud and I was encouraged to bang on the piano... its not a good idea to play very loud if your technique is not ready to do so, but on top of that, its not a good exercise in musicality when the only dynamic in the band is ff to fff.

I don't know about jazz combos, but bands usually do play very loud as far as I know. (That's why if you care about your hearing, you should wear earplugs in a bar or concert.) But nobody plays acoustic pianos anymore. Everything is digital, so the volume can be controlled accordingly. Well that's that, it's in the past anyway.

That being said, I think we should leave the past behind and avoid blaming people, whether it's others or ourselves. I have this bad habit also, blaming my past. I could have started much, much earlier with a good teacher blahblahblah.

 K. is right as usual. You should filter everything your teachers say and not take it a law or anything. Especially since piano playing is an art, you have to do it yourself to a certain degree.

I don't quite understand how expert advice can be undesirable though. Good begets good, maybe the effect does not come instantly, but it does. The problem is that both very good and very bad advice can hurt. It hurts to change ingrained habits for better ones, and it also hurts to do things badly... In the end, it's a risk to have any kind of teacher, and it takes a lot of guts to take it. (And I find it hard to pigeonhole people into "good" or "bad" as I myself can be called a bad student by some.) So I think your progress is really ruined if and only if you quit for good.

[etcetra]

i guess  I took me 7 years (since I was 21) before I decided to start over from scratch. the fact that I couldn't stop playing in college didn't help either... playing music just felt extremely uncomfortable... it really dawned on me not long ago, when I was playing chopsticks and feeling so tense that i couldn't play it.

btw the reason I am posting this is not to blame people..  I've met people who went through the same things in college.. some of them had horrible teachers early on, and they were struggling with a lot of injury problems.  A lot of people I know had to stop playing for a while, and postpone their recital for similar reasons.. I just wonder why so many people end up getting injured, and ultimately having to start over one way or the other to find alternative ways of playing the instrument... esp since these people are getting weekly lessons.

[etcetra]

db05

I didn't mentioned this in the post, but the teacher actually told me not to mic the upright piano, saying that that's how people back then played, which is silly, because every time I see a jazz pianist perform, they are miced and they play on a grand piano. 

Karli, go12_3 & Frank

The problem is that sometimes when you are young, you have too much respect for your teachers.. you end up thinking that they know better so you should just follow their advice, even if it's not right for you. 

I agree that its very important for teachers to be in tune with the students, knowing what they are ready for and what they aren't and careful examine their progress. 

I don't think it wouldn't have been a problem if I built my ability so that I could play louder  (although not that loud), the ability to play loud (correctly) is something you have to learn and build up over time. 

[go12_3]

I don't know about jazz combos, but bands usually do play very loud as far as I know. (That's why if you care about your hearing, you should wear earplugs in a bar or concert.) But nobody plays acoustic pianos anymore. Everything is digital, so the volume can be controlled accordingly. Well that's that, it's in the past anyway.  

That being said, I think we should leave the past behind and avoid blaming people, whether it's others or ourselves. I have this bad habit also, blaming my past. I could have started much, much earlier with a good teacher blahblahblah.

 K. is right as usual. You should filter everything your teachers say and not take it a law or anything. Especially since piano playing is an art, you have to do it yourself to a certain degree.

I don't quite understand how expert advice can be undesirable though. Good begets good, maybe the effect does not come instantly, but it does. The problem is that both very good and very bad advice can hurt. It hurts to change ingrained habits for better ones, and it also hurts to do things badly... In the end, it's a risk to have any kind of teacher, and it takes a lot of guts to take it. (And I find it hard to pigeonhole people into "good" or "bad" as I myself can be called a bad student by some.) So I think your progress is really ruined if and only if you quit for good.

 I agree with you, db05, on that it takes risk and guts to take lessons from a teacher.  I think we need to use our intuition during the lesson process.  And not ever quit totally.  There are excellent teachers and finding the right one can take time.  And I'm sorry to hear that you, db05, was called a "bad student".  No student should be labeled as "bad".  That can affect a student's musical ability.  

[go12_3]

Say, I have a suggestion.  We are all on line, lets go into the chat room and discuss this topic.  Everytime I post, someone else is replying. 

[m19834]

In addressing Karli's post:  Sure, it may depend upon the student, but to what degree, as with my personal experience with my violin instructors.  I did try to follow my teacher's advice and worked hard for several weeks, but why keep on trying when I wasn't progressing afterall?  So would I be considered a "bad" student?  

Well, I think that the BEST teacher/student interactions involve some kind of constant adjustment.  I say that because I think it's perhaps tempting to think that if something is the best possible situation, that nothing would ever need to be adjusted, and that's just not true, I don't think.  The process of learning involves factors that are ever-evolving.  If that were not true, then blanket statements could be given to every student, regardless of individuality, and that would be enough for everybody to be on their merry way.  It's just not enough though.  If I, as a teacher, am seeing that something I have said or done, while perfectly clear and helpful for one student, is not helping another student, then I believe it's my job to find another way to say the same thing (so long as the student cares).  What really matters is not my advice though, it is how it actually affects the student, and that is my point.  

Regarding the student's responsibilities though, I am just suggesting that it is POSSIBLE that a good advice can have an undesirable affect IF the student is not following it to the "T".  If something is not working for me as a student, the first question I (should) ask myself is if I am actually following --TO A "T"-- the advices I was given.  Sometimes maybe there needs to be more clarification, sometimes everything was clear enough, but for whatever reason my lazy side has decided to take over.  I felt that this concept was a necessary inclusion to more fully answer the topic question.

[go12_3]

All in all, to sum up this topic, it's important that we as musicians continue to learn and progress in being students or teachers, and keep doing our best.  It's also important to keep in mind, that we need to feel comfortable with no pain and no tension while we learn our music.   

[etcetra]

go12_3

and also be mindful of your teacher and be active part of learning.. talk to them.. and understand they might not be right all the time..

btw i changed the content on the last post a little.

Karil,

I totaly agree with you.  those adjustments are crucial.. i guess another reason i decided to post this is because after reading response  other thread about "students being musical but lacks natural ability/cordination" thread, perhaps the problem may be from lack of clarity and adjustment in the teaching.. and maybe the same thing can be said about what I went through.

[db05]

And I'm sorry to hear that you, db05, was called a "bad student".  No student should be labeled as "bad".  That can affect a student's musical ability.  

I'm not exactly labeled as such, but you get the picture.

[m19834]

Karli, go12_3 & Frank

The problem is that sometimes when you are young, you have too much respect for your teachers.. you end up thinking that they know better so you should just follow their advice, even if it's not right for you. 

Part of developing as an artist is in discerning who you are and how to glean from life that which really feeds your progress.  Sometimes we know this as children but not as adults, sometimes we know it as adults but not as children, or perhaps we never know this.  Sometimes we know it all along.

[etcetra]

Karil,

Yea individuality is important.. sometimes its something that people have to learn to "live with" in art.  I remember when I started composing, I was really worried that I was not doing something right.. but I soon realized that I was getting overwhelmingly positive response from everyone, including some very respectable players.  I realize that I had to be comfortable with the fact I am different.   

It's also interesting, now that I am playing with people more, the good musicians I work with are very appreciative about the fact that I tend to play soft and musically, and find that quality unique and gives them the rare oppertunity to be more sensitive about their playing.  Who would have thought that playing soft would be a strength back then?

I guess if there is one thing I wish I could change back then, I wish I was able to tell the teachers that whatever it is was not working for me.  I am sure there was a way to develop what I lacked and cater to my strength at the same time.  I defninitely felt like I had to give up "who I am" in order to  adopt the kind of playing my teachers wanted.

[m19834]

I defninitely felt like I had to give up "who I am" in order to  adopt the kind of playing my teachers wanted.

Well, I can't answer on your behalf because I don't know you or your actual situation.  However, in my experience, there are different types of giving up of oneself.  One way involves oppression, the other involves liberation ... or sometimes to our limited perception, it may involve both. 

[frank_48]

db05

I didn't mentioned this in the post, but the teacher actually told me not to mic the upright piano, saying that that's how people back then played, which is silly, because every time I see a jazz pianist perform, they are miced and they play on a grand piano. 

Karli, go12_3 & Frank

The problem is that sometimes when you are young, you have too much respect for your teachers.. you end up thinking that they know better so you should just follow their advice, even if it's not right for you. 

actually, its because of this forum and many books ive read on technique is why i'd like to think that i somewhat have saved myself over alot of pain and pointless practicing, which is why nearly every week my teacher and i spent about 10 minutes arguing on what works and what doesnt, whats right for me and what is actually a waste of time.

my progress is going fantastic right now and its really due to me telling my teacher what a waste of time some of her methods are, also ive been choosing all the pieces ive been playing up til now as to aid my progress better (moszkowski etudes ftw!)

I am thinking of switching teachers to be honest, as i would rather have a teacher who knows what shes doing. rather than just coming every week with no clear goal on what has to be done.

she knows what shes doing in terms of technical scales/arpeggios, and that has been a great help, but for repertoire...

[etcetra]

Frank_48,

Yea, changing a teacher is a tough process.. sometimes its for the better, but sometimes i wonder if I am just resisting their teaching method and I am at fault for that.  But then again, I know so many people who were just not sure about their teacher and stayed with them... and end up having injury and become frustrated with their learning.  They usually have this wishful hope that maybe things will change for the better but often times it doesn't

Maybe students just need to look for teachers until you find the right fit.  I am glad that you do argue and talk to your teachers what is working on not.. It may be harder for the teachers, but isn't that a good thing when a student is being pro active & researching on how to play better on their own?

[go12_3]

  I only had one piano teacher when I was young.  And now that I'm a teacher, I would not label nor make my students suffer any kind of pain nor discomfort.
 Did I ever follow my teacher's advice?  Sure, I did.  However, with years of playing piano and violin, it comes to a point that a teacher is not needed.  And that was how I felt when I took lessons from my former violin instructor.  I did learn from her, although, I needed to quit because of the pain in my forearm.   I feel students should respect their teachers, but they need to follow their intuitive to determine how they progress in a postive and comfortable course. There will always be teachers that we question as students, if the teacher is right for us and so forth.  But, that is the process of learning and becoming a refined musician.

[m19834]

(...)isn't that a good thing when a student is being pro active & researching on how to play better on their own?

heh.  That really depends.  Often times information can be very misleading.  If a student is sincerely doing this on their own, it would be wise to treat their teacher as a person they can turn to in order to sort out what is what, and not just as another person to argue with, necessarily (unless that is the teacher's desired approach).  If I had a student doing truly lots of research on various things regarding piano, and their main aim in coming to me is to prove me wrong (and have stopped listening to me at all), I would think that they could find somebody else to help them out with that and I would surely have other things to do with my own time ... unless, of course, I always win  .

As students I suppose we can approach teachers in different ways.  Do we want to find out what they DON'T know, or what they DO know ?  Are we there to find out what WE know ourselves, or what THEY know ?  Or maybe we are there to find out what WE DON'T know ?  Maybe it's some combination of it all.  Personally speaking, I don't travel to my mentor just to exercise my arguing skills  .  Then again, if my mentor happened to read that, he might have a very different perception of our interaction together  :-.

[go12_3]

It works both ways----the teacher ought to know more than the student,
and the student is making his/her quest to find out how much the teacher knows.....oh, my.....depending upon the age, etc, of the student, of course. 

[etcetra]

Yea I agree with go,

Education comes from the word educe, which means "to bring out the potential of".. in that sense the teacher is only really there to find what is naturally right for you.. there are many ways to get there... but in some cases there are teachers who only knows and can only teach how they are taught, and mold you into their school of thought..sometimes by disregarding their students individual unique needs.

I had a major disagreement with my jazz teacher.. and it was not for the sake of arguing to prove the teacher wrong.. after spending time with at workshops and talking to great players, I realize jazz is mainly an aural learning process.. and I disagree with my teacher giving me written transcription to work with (which these great players were against also).  It became harder to work with her, and at one point the teacher told me that  this is how she was taught and she doesn't know how to teach me anymore.

I still respect my teacher greatly, but at the same time I couldn't ignore what other very accomplished musicians have said.. in the end I had to choose what was right for me.

I guess as teachers its difficult  figuring out whether you are just molding your students to a method, a school or thought, or whether you are really helping and guiding the students to find what they have in themselves.

[go12_3]

Yea I agree with go,

Education comes from the word educe, which means "to bring out the potential of".. in that sense the teacher is only really there to find what is naturally right for you.. there are many ways to get there... but in some cases there are teachers who only knows and can only teach how they are taught, and mold you into their school of thought, disregarding their individual uniqueness.

I had a major disagreement with my jazz teacher.. and it was not for the sake of arguing to prove the teacher wrong.. after spending time with at workshops and talking to great players, I realize jazz is mainly an aural learning process.. and I disagree with my teacher giving me written transcription to work with (which these great players were against also).  It became harder to work with her, and at one point the teacher told me that  this is how she was taught and she doesn't know how to teach me anymore.

I still respect my teacher greatly, but at the same time I couldn't ignore what other very accomplished musicians have said.. in the end I had to choose what was right for me.

I guess as teachers its difficult  figuring out whether you are just molding your students to a method, a school or thought, or whether you are really helping and guiding the students to find what they have in themselves.


well said!  Bravo! 

[go12_3]

this posting is driving me crazy.  I meant to reply after etcetra's post, and it ended up in his quote.  Say, pardon me for the mix up here.  I'm still learning how to reply around here..... anyhow, "well said! etcetra, and bravo!"   

[m19834]

I guess as teachers its difficult  figuring out whether you are just molding your students to a method, a school or thought, or whether you are really helping and guiding the students to find what they have in themselves.

hmmmm... well, that depends on the student  .  There may be some students whom are looking for particular schools of thought and want to learn about those in particular, and that is what has drawn the individual to that teacher.  As I look back through the window of time (ahhhh ... the romance of life ), I can definitely sense that there is something leading me on ... there is some desire ... something that I am seeking.  I can feel that it is somehow very specific, yet, what it is, exactly, eludes me.  And then, it's almost completely overwhelming and at that point, these days, I get very grateful for my mentor's presence in my life and be a good girl and go back to the piano benchy and do what I have been asked to do ... looking forward to my next visit with my mentor .

[etcetra]

thanks,  

This reminds me, I was at a workshop for actors.. and this coach was amazing.. he knew exactly what to say.. he knew how different people are held back for different reasons and find ways to 'unlock' their block.  

I remember this girl was having trouble playing this scene.. the scene took place right after the second world war, and it was her first time seeing her husband..it turns out that he was severe maimed and missing an arm.  

The coach basically told her to really put herself in a place, and think what it would be like to see her loved ones go through a tragic accident..it was the way he said it.. i wish i could describe it...  it literally transformed her acting within matter of seconds... its such a complex emotion to express, the joy, the sadness, and the frantic attempt to cover up that overwhelming sadness.. she was able to find that and bring it out in her performance.

I guess those kind of breakthroughs are rare, but I imagine, ideally, that what teachers are there for.

[etcetra]

hmmmm... well, that depends on the student  .  There may be some students whom are looking for particular schools of thought and want to learn about those in particular, and that is what has drawn the individual to that teacher.  As I look back through the window of time (ahhhh ... the romance of life ), I can definitely sense that there is something leading me on ... there is some desire ... something that I am seeking.  I can feel that it is somehow very specific, yet, what it is, exactly, eludes me.  And then, it's almost completely overwhelming and at that point, these days, I get very grateful for my mentor's presence in my life and be a good girl and go back to the piano benchy and do what I have been asked to do ... looking forward to my next visit with my mentor .

I guess everyone's path is different , what you seek comes to in you different shapes  

For me I felt like I had to forge my own path, because there was noone who could get there.. but that may have more to do with the fact that I am learning jazz.

[go12_3]

Here, here!  

Cheers to the teachers!    

We desire a pat on the back.  Thank you! thank you!  thank you!  

[m19834]

I did try to follow my teacher's advice and worked hard for several weeks, but why keep on trying when I wasn't progressing afterall?

After getting up from the bench, having been working on something in particular that I have been working with for months actually, I thought again of your comment here and had to come back to add more fuel to the big, burning fire  (maybe I am the only one who is on burning fire, and I am projecting that onto you ... hee hee ... better watch out.  OR, at LEAST bring some marshmallows).

Yes, I have been working on a particular technical aspect since October.  This particular aspect was a change for me completely, in many ways, and it actually seemed to go against many of the advices I had been reading and incorporating into my playing for the past several years.  As it turns out, there is a good reason I decided to take the advice in, but that is another story.  The point is, at FIRST, because it was a change for me, I actually was experiencing pain.  I could go into details about that, but as it turns out, it was NOT the specific technical aspect that was causing the pain, it was my need to be more aware of what I was doing, and to make adjustments as I go along.  And, in reality, even though this particular technical aspect was something I learned from my mentor after the first time I met him, he was NOT actually asking me to do something that caused me pain.  You see ?  I just hadn't figured out yet how to do it without pain, and it took me about a month, actually, to get it more sorted out.  I didn't push THROUGH the pain, I changed my behavior so as to do what he was asking WITHOUT pain, and that is, in reality, what he was asking of me all along ... you see ?

Now, as I plod along, month after month, each time I go to see my mentor, we work a little on this particular thing.  I can see and feel that each time I see him, I am doing things a little bit differently than the last time I saw him, and yes, there have been times where I wondered if I could actually do what he was asking of me to do ... I mean, I wondered if it were actually even physically possible ... hee hee (sorry  ).  As it turns out though, after adjustment after adjustment, some bigger some smaller (and I think we are probably still making some adjustments), it is starting to come together more.  And, now, today, I am just realizing more clearly that truly grasping this particular concept is in fact opening up an entirely new world of piano playing for me.  Did I see improvements all along ?  Yes, some.  There was always some kind of thread that I could be following, but it was not all smooth leading me to here.  As a matter of fact, there were things to actually ponder, for sure, especially the fact that I was feeling pain.  But, if I had automatically decided that it were this particular thing that he were asking for me to do that were causing the pain, then I would have been wrong.  And, consequently, I would have been missing out on what I am just beginning to experience now, and that would be unfortunate.  I assume I am still learning, too.

This took both my own careful observation during my practicing, and not just assuming anything in particular (though I had some particular knowledge going into it, too, that was helpful), but it also took my mentor knowledgably helping me to adjust as we went along as well.

So, as it turns out :

So would I be considered a "bad" student?

In your case, maybe so  . 

Okay, that was *almost* a joke  .  Just to be clear, I am in no way advocating painful playing.  I am, however, advocating thoughtfulness about what you are experiencing and doing.  If there is something wrong about it, don't just assume that the particular aspect itself is causing the problem for you.  It may be YOU.  And, OF COURSE, it is very helpful to have a knowledgable individual guiding you as you go along, too !  That can make ALL the difference.

[etcetra]

Karil,

did your mentor help you during the adjustment process, gave you advice to help you understand what you are doing wrong?   

Teachers usually have a descent idea of what's wrong, or what kind of sound they want out of the instrument, but they might not be able explain how to do that very well.  I think that may be the cause of frustration and lack of progress in the students in some ways.

I remember one of my first jazz teacher i had told me to just do this and do that, and got frustrated about the fact that i couldn't.  I quit after two lessons.. it would been very helpful if he me actually how to do it.. like you know slow down, hands separate..that may be extreme case, but you get the point.

Bring on the marshmallows 

[go12_3]

I think I need a handful of asprins....oh,   I have a headache coming on....

[m19834]

Karil,

did your mentor help you during the adjustment process, gave you advice to help you understand what you are doing wrong?

Yes, as I stated he has very much so, and still does (we are still making adjustments) -- not just about what I am doing wrong though, but about how to do it right.  However, I never communicated with him that I was feeling pain.   

[m19834]

Teachers usually have a descent idea of what's wrong, or what kind of sound they want out of the instrument, but they might not be able explain how to do that very well.  I think that may be the cause of frustration and lack of progress in the students in some ways.

I have come back to wax lyrical about my mentor  .  Yes, he has a very precise concept, it seems, on what sounds we want to have out of the instrument, but yes, he also gives me precise guidance on how to achieve those sounds.  Those things, as well as a more detailed kind of listening to myself are my "tasks" when I take my stuff home all by my lonesome to practice.  For some reason, after roughly 5 months of working with him, I have no idea if I have ever even come close to what he is asking for ... hee hee.  I mean, he points it out in our lessons together, but I am not always sure I am getting what I want out of the instrument when I am working on my own yet.  I suspect it will not always be that way though.  That doesn't exactly frustrate me yet, though it makes me mad at myself when he has to repeat himself.  I just feel like I am exploring things anew, I feel challenged, and I guess I feel plenty occupied with that.  Maybe he is frustrated with me though ... hee hee.

I am still learning whatever my mentor is willing to offer me, but so far it is completely changing the landscape of my thinking towards music, the piano, practicing, and even towards teaching/my students.  I do recognize that this is not the kind of quality teaching that every teacher gives (and I travel about 1200 miles a month, and have confronted a long-standing and deathly fear of flying, heights, and claustrophobia to get it).  Why that is, exactly, I am not sure and I am still working to discern.  I am also not sure as to what, exactly, prepared me for him, but I do know that this is all making a needed difference in my life.  Of course, I am very grateful.

[keypeg]

Karli, it sounds very special, and surely something to be cherished.  You must be working very hard, but also seeing rewards from that work and this teacher's input.  And how fortunate for your students, who are the second beneficiaries.   

KP

[m19834]

Karli, it sounds very special, and surely something to be cherished.

Yes, I think so. 

You must be working very hard, but also seeing rewards from that work and this teacher's input.

 

Well, yes, I am working hard, but I know and feel like I could be working harder/better.  I do see the rewards of his input, definitely.  There have been times in my life where I have worked very hard on my own, and yes, there is some kind of improvement, but the difference between that and having somebody like him to go to and having his input to guide my work is vast.  It's difficult for me to fully grasp at the time though.

And how fortunate for your students, who are the second beneficiaries.   

KP

Yes, well, that is the idea I suppose.  Though, I don't know if they would feel that way, since I have become much more mean  . 

[keypeg]

It is a treasure to find that kind of teacher.  I keep hearing the saying "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." in my mind.  I don't know if it is apt.  In any case, it was very good to read your story today.

KP

[m19834]

It is a treasure to find that kind of teacher.  I keep hearing the saying "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." in my mind.  I don't know if it is apt.  In any case, it was very good to read your story today.

KP

Yes, well, I do agree with that.  He actually "appeared" in my life to some degree for a few years before I started working with him, but I guess I wasn't quite ready yet.  Interstingly, in my particular (strange) case, I believe it was very helpful for me that we knew each other in the particular way that we did, at least a little bit, before we started working together.  I realize that I can be a difficult (maybe *very* difficult) person to get to know ... at least that is what I have gathered over the course of my life so far, and I know that doesn't make things easy on people.  Anyway, yes, to me it is a beautiful thing to find the right match.  I am happy that you found something of interest in what I have shared.  Thanks for your thoughts .

[renatog]

etcetra,
  Yes! A bad teacher can ruin your progress, the question is, though...how do you know the teacher is bad?  Well...
So far it looks like it is affecting your progress.  Be very careful when someone tells you to do something that doesn't feel right.  In this situation where you are playing in a Jazz combo, you do have to project your "voice".  However, the other musicians must respect your "voice" as well.  In Jazz groups, musicians tend to compete with each other when they're playing.  Sometimes they don't even realize it, and it's OK, but that's what a teacher is for.  They need to show you how to control your volume and work with the group, as a team.  The teacher must know this.  If they don't, bring it to his/her attention.  You have to be very conscious of your instrument and protect yourself.  If you are getting some negative vibes from the teacher, I would seek a second opinion.  Talk to the department head.  Not all teachers teach the same way (as you may already know).  I've had some good and some bad experiences in college with teachers, and I can tell you that you should not be quiet about it (for your sake).

[etcetra]

renatog,

thanks for the advice.  I agree that students has to be conscientious of what they are learning, esp if something doesn't feel right.  I did manage to quit the school after 1 semester.. this is due to many factors.. mainly because he was not sure if he was actually able to get me a jazz piano teacher for next semester (I didn't have one for the first semester) and didn't deliver on most of his promises.

I started to realize that there's a lot of politics university education, and sometimes teachers are not in it for your best interest.  I've seen people being exploited, people pressured into to play in more ensembles then they required and end up spending 7 yr college for BA.

A lot of teachers were looking out only for themselves, and I learned that it is important to figure out which teacher actually cares about you... and it really helps to talk to people that are higher up in chain of command.. I actually had to go talk to dean of arts and the president of the university, because some of the stuff that the teachers were doing was downright unethical .. like proffesors flaking out on recitals and threatening students to write good evluation.

[renatog]

Damn, that's some crazy shiznit.
I definitely agree with you.  A lot of politics in colleges/universities.
One department gets more attention than the other, and teachers feel crunchy about it.  They should be happy they still have a job!
I hope you didn't give up on it tho, there are a lot of good schools out there.

Good Luck

[etcetra]

renatog

i guess at one point i just decided to go learn on my own.. me and my friends treated school as practice room and nothing more.

The stuff that happened was so unethical that it really made me angry.. one of the teacher actually threatened their students to write good evaluation for him.. and he told the students that if he gets bad review, he will find out who he is and put something bad on their permenant record, and make it impossible for them to go to grad school.  I had a teacher who flaked out on the first 7 lessons, and I ended up getting like 3-4 lesson that entire semester. 

They even advertise by saying so and so is a faculty at school, only to find out they are not available to teach once you get in.. it was really sad because there were foregin students who picked that school to study with that teacher.

It really made me realize how much impact the people in charge has.. the percussion depeartment had a really good teacher who cared about his students , and always asked how they were doing, and what they are working on.. and their expereince was completely different than ours.