op 111

[njalli]

what do you think of beethoven sonata op 111?

2nd movement is here:

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1st movement is here:

[pianowolfi]

Well that is one of these pieces that make life worth living

[Petter]

Beethoven invents boogiewoogie swing 

[zheer]

Well that is one of these pieces that make life worth living

  He was totally deaf at this point, he told one of his students or friends that who ever understands his music ( Beethoven ) will be free from all their trouble in life.

[pianowolfi]

he told one of his students or friends that who ever understands his music ( Beethoven ) will be free from all their trouble in life.

Very interesting. Might be true.

[njalli]

As one of you guys said, he was deaf. this just proofs that Beethoven was the best

and now people might say that liszt, chopin composed better music for the piano, but think about it for a second, he composed hes 9th symphonie totally deaf, allso 2-3 of hes last sonatas, the grosse fuge and many other great works!

just wanted to say, i heard this piece first time a year ago (i was 13) and unlike some people today, and nearly every one at beethovens time, i didnt need to listen to it many times to understand it like i have to do to be able to listen to prokofiev and others. this is just an amazing piece.


nothing further...

[Petter]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiligenstadt_Testament

He wrote a "suicide" letter when he realized he would become deaf, I think it´s really touching.

[njalli]

wierd, its allthoug known that he had some anger problems,

there was found, i think it was a hair out of beethoven, im not sure if it was something else, and after some research of that hair, scientists found out that he had an unusually high amount of lead in hes body, wich is belived to couse his anger problems

but think of it this way, if you were a succsesefull composer and were doing this beceause it was the only thing that you 'loved doing' and you became deaf, (wich allmost makes it impossible to do what you do) its just like to be a Football player with no legs, and allso blind.

wouldnt you being thinking about 'killing your self' tho ofcourse most peaople would say, no i wouldnt. but if you were in hes footprintes you would be.

btw, thanks for telling me about this letter.. i knewer knew about it and, yeh thanks for telling me about it

[iroveashe]

One of my favorite pieces ever, and good call on picking Annie Fischer's interpretation, she's the best by far in my opinion : )

I love how it's so dynamic and just flows like a river, all the contrasts it has, and so much more that can't be put into words. It's got a lot of light and dark, for example the first movement being so chaotic and dramatic since the very first notes, and so wonderfully "angry" (especially in the hands and heart of Fischer), and the second movement being so clear and fresh. I don't know if this is what Beethoven had in mind when composing this but to me the first movement, being so violent, represents destruction; and the second represents creation, starting so simple and quiet and then evolving into something more and more beautiful. I think it was Nietzsche who said «Out of chaos comes a new order» and I think that applies to a lot of Beethoven's work.

[njalli]

me and my teacher agree that this is hes best sonata

 

[pianowolfi]

wierd, its allthoug known that he had some anger problems,

there was found, i think it was a hair out of beethoven, im not sure if it was something else, and after some research of that hair, scientists found out that he had an unusually high amount of lead in hes body, wich is belived to couse his anger problems

I don't think that this lead was causing his "anger problems". It caused his death. He loved to eat fish in the restaurants of Vienna. But the water these fish were taken from was contaminated with lead. I personally think that these "anger problems" were more like a deep thing, caused by his tremendous creative energy which got into a conflict with the reality of his time. His spirit was so much into the future that he often felt the limits of this certain time and space he lived in. 

[njalli]

or that...

[njalli]

I don't think that this lead was causing his "anger problems". It caused his death. He loved to eat fish in the restaurants of Vienna. But the water these fish were taken from was contaminated with lead. I personally think that these "anger problems" were more like a deep thing, caused by his tremendous creative energy which got into a conflict with the reality of his time. His spirit was so much into the future that he often felt the limits of this certain time and space he lived in. 

sorry for double post.. but i found evidence that I were right

Russell Martin has shown from analysis done on a sample of Beethoven's hair that there were alarmingly high levels of lead in Beethoven's system. High concentrations of lead can lead to bizarre and erratic behaviour, INCLUDING RAGES.

BUT it could have coused his death too, maybie we are both right

another thing i found: Another symptom of lead poisoning is deafness.

it could have coused hes deafness too

[pianowolfi]

I see. It's tragic.

[scottmcc]

ugh...with great reticence, I shall play the "I'm an ear surgeon" card.

now that that's out of the way, the cause of beethoven's deafness is not certain.  I have pasted an excerpt of an article about it below:

Beethoven in Person: His Deafness, Illnesses, and Death
by Peter J. Davies, 271 pp, with illus, $69.95, ISBN 0-818-81587-6, Westport, Conn, Greenwood Press, 2001.


JAMA. 2002;288:768.

Pathography, the retrospective study of the illnesses of historical figures, is for many physicians an interesting sideline, in which the consequences of an erroneous diagnosis may be less urgent than in contemporary practice. Historically and musically inclined physicians have frequently addressed Ludwig van Beethoven's deafness and multiple physical ailments, which have been ascribed to otosclerosis, alcoholism, syphilis, sarcoidosis, autoimmune disorder, and most recently heavy metal poisoning.



The conclusion was that he actually most likely had plain old sensineural hearing loss of the type that many get when they age.  nothing special at all.  they also conclude that his death was probably due to plain old alcoholic liver failure.



here's what argonne lab had to say about the lead issue:
https://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2005/news051206.html

[iroveashe]

The conclusion was that he actually most likely had plain old sensineural hearing loss of the type that many get when they age.  nothing special at all.  they also conclude that his death was probably due to plain old alcoholic liver failure.

He wrote the suicide letter when he was 31, saying he's been suffering for 6 years. Are you saying he lied about his hearing in a suicide letter, or that late 20's is a regular age to get sensineural hearing loss?

[njalli]

He wrote the suicide letter when he was 31, saying he's been suffering for 6 years. Are you saying he lied about his hearing in a suicide letter, or that late 20's is a regular age to get sensineural hearing loss?

mhm

[scottmcc]

He wrote the suicide letter when he was 31, saying he's been suffering for 6 years. Are you saying he lied about his hearing in a suicide letter, or that late 20's is a regular age to get sensineural hearing loss?

people can get sensineural hearing loss at any age, from a multitude of causes.  backing up, there are two main categories of hearing loss, sensineural and conductive.  conductive refers to problems with the ear canal, ear drum, middle ear space, or ossicles (the small ear bones, aka hammer/anvil/stirrup, aka malleus, incus, stapes).  sensineural refers to problems with the inner ear (cochlea) or the coclear nerve (eighth cranial nerve). 

the hearing loss that people get due to aging is called presbycusis, and is a type of sensineural loss.  most people don't get significant presbycusis until at least 50s-60s, but people who have been exposed to loud noises can certainly start to show decline in their 20s-30s (although again, that is early).

the cause of beethoven's hearing loss is still something of a mystery.  the book I referenced concluded that it was plain old presbycusis, but there's also a few unexplained features, such as the fluctuating nature of the loss, which is really only seen in meniere's disease, which there is no evidence of him having.  labyrinthitis is unlikely due to the progressive nature and the lack of vertigo.   autoimmune causes don't really make sense because those are usually much more rapid in onset, and he didn't have any other autoimmune diseases.  otosclerosis certainly could explain his problem, but without a premortem ear exploration surgery  or pathologic exam of his temporal bones, you'd never be able to prove that.

there's also a few people who think that he was not actually deaf, but that his deafness was a conversion disorder (ie all in his head, and not real).  this is different than "faking it," in that he would honestly have believed that he was deaf, even though he actually wasn't.  the only way to prove that would be a few specialized hearing tests (not always done on a routine audiogram). 

what I can say with certainty is that beethoven never had a modern audiogram, and without that, it's pretty hard to say what exactly was going on with his hearing.

back to the real topic though, opus 111 is indeed a great sonata.  I prefer the middle sonatas more myself, but that's just my taste.

[iroveashe]

I don't really see the relevance of what was the cause of his deafness, the facts are that he was deaf, and that doesn't give him any merit regarding the quality of his work (meaning had he not been deaf he would've been equally admired); though an interesting question about this off-topic topic is: If he wasn't deaf, would his music be the same? I don't think so, since there's a lot of struggle in most of his pieces which I believe come from his suffering and what he learned from it. For example (just to get back on topic) the 1st movement of Opus 111 is very extreme, but it's 'necessary pain' to make the second movement more of a relief.

[go12_3]

One of my favorite pieces ever, and good call on picking Annie Fischer's interpretation, she's the best by far in my opinion : )

I love how it's so dynamic and just flows like a river, all the contrasts it has, and so much more that can't be put into words. It's got a lot of light and dark, for example the first movement being so chaotic and dramatic since the very first notes, and so wonderfully "angry" (especially in the hands and heart of Fischer), and the second movement being so clear and fresh. I don't know if this is what Beethoven had in mind when composing this but to me the first movement, being so violent, represents destruction; and the second represents creation, starting so simple and quiet and then evolving into something more and more beautiful. I think it was Nietzsche who said «Out of chaos comes a new order» and I think that applies to a lot of Beethoven's work.

  I agree with this comment.  Indeed, Beethoven is was a fine composer and that's what makes his works so great to learn and understand.  His music will never cease to amaze us....

[twiltot]

it's not a piece that ANYBODY can get. it's one of the sonatas that you could only feel, not describe

[lontano]

Like most everyone replying here, I believe Beethoven's last piano sonata is an expression of the master's (unfortunate) finest transcendence over his (near life-long hearing) disability.

I first saw the score in my youth (when I was attempting to play the variations of the Appasionata), long before I found a recording, and I was forever moved when I finally found a recording. 40 years later I still tend to measure a performer's interpretive abilities via a representative performance of this work. From the earliest recordings there have been a few good recordings, and many bad ones. By the late 20th century many pianists have learned to play this transcendent work admirably, but to play it on the highest level, it takes another leap forward into some (mature) extended charmed psychoacustic state specific to the performance this, one of the greatest sonatas for piano ever conceived.

Lost in consideration,
Lontano

PS: Try and find Richter's last recording. As usual, he is superb...

[dan101]

It's a forward looking, brilliant composition.

[communist]

As one of you guys said, he was deaf. this just proofs that Beethoven was the best

and now people might say that liszt, chopin composed better music for the piano, but think about it for a second, he composed hes 9th symphonie totally deaf, allso 2-3 of hes last sonatas, the grosse fuge and many other great works!

just wanted to say, i heard this piece first time a year ago (i was 13) and unlike some people today, and nearly every one at beethovens time, i didnt need to listen to it many times to understand it like i have to do to be able to listen to prokofiev and others. this is just an amazing piece.


nothing further...

that does not prove he is the best. It is remarkable undoubtedly, but I am sure Prokofiev or anyone else could have written pretty good music deaf. We also don't know if it came out the way he wanted it to come out. And anyone with perfect pitch probably could do that.

[webern78]

Greatest sonata ever, bar none.

[webern78]

One of my favorite pieces ever, and good call on picking Annie Fischer's interpretation, she's the best by far in my opinion : )

That's because you never heard the version by Edwin Fischer. Too bad Gilels died before recording this. His late Beethoven is sublime too.

[weissenberg2]

That's because you never heard the version by Edwin Fischer. Too bad Gilels died before recording this. His late Beethoven is sublime too.

I think Pletnev's is the best. It is not straight up Beethoven but what he does with it is amazing.

[lontano]

that does not prove he is the best. It is remarkable undoubtedly, but I am sure Prokofiev or anyone else could have written pretty good music deaf. We also don't know if it came out the way he wanted it to come out. And anyone with perfect pitch probably could do that.

Any (and several) great composers have created wonderful works after their hearing loss. If one has mastered the state-of-the-art of composition, deafness, however tragic, does not remove the composer from the supreme position of "Master of (music theory, composition, etc)".

Beethoven's hearing loss began in his 20's and progressed from there on. He still "knew" how to conduct, no matter how well may be questionable, and he was able to play the piano even if all he had was the great gift of knowledge he accumulated as a master composer. His curse was a gift in disguise, as the freedom from the "hearing masses" appears to have left him with a greater skill.

L