Moonlight Sonata (Read 57013 times)

threepwood · « on: February 16, 2009, 08:20:08 PM »

Hello all piano players

I have a question I must have answered, how is the Moonlight Sonata ranked at Level 8+ ? Its one of the easiest pieces of classical music...?

pianisten1989 · «Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 08:35:20 PM »

You do know that it is a sonata, right? Three movements. The first movement is quite hard to get rubato, without cliche.
The third movement is very fast and quite difficult. But 8+ isn't perticulary hard... Kind of everything is 8+...

zheer · «Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 08:40:07 PM »

It was listed as grade 7 , it is now grade 8+ . Personally I believe that it all depends on how ambitious you are with the sonata. If your looking to simple play the notes, good tempo and Ok musicality, then yeah grade 7 or 8, but if your looking to play it really well ( concert ), then I'd say the third MVT is seriously tough.

njalli · «Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 08:59:43 PM »

The first movement is quite easy. But in the 3rd movement, things get a litle more complicated. That movement, if you look at the sheet music, you can see that its NOT easy.

ÞÐ

pianowolfi · «Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 09:13:24 PM »

Unfortunately 99% of the students quit before reaching the third measure of the second mvt.

general disarray · «Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 09:43:01 PM »

Quote from: njalli on February 16, 2009, 08:59:43 PM

The first movement is quite easy. But in the 3rd movement, things get a litle more complicated. That movement, if you look at the sheet music, you can see that its NOT easy.

ÞÐ

With all due respect, the first movement APPEARS to be easy, but controlling those hushed dynamics and making that theme sing is no task for beginners. Expert control and phrasing is required here.

njalli · «Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 10:05:56 PM »

Quote from: general disarray on February 16, 2009, 09:43:01 PM

With all due respect, the first movement APPEARS to be easy, but controlling those hushed dynamics and making that theme sing is no task for beginners. Expert control and phrasing is required here.

true.. somebody allso said here that the 3rd movement isnt hard but its really hard to play on concert..

you can say the same about the first MVT, just to get the melody to sing and as you mentionet the dynamics, both of these things make the first movement not technicly hard but hard in other ways

kelly_kelly · «Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 10:47:20 PM »

"Hard" is very relative. For an advanced pianist, the sonata may be very easy (though still probably not enough to be called "one of the easiest pieces of classical music"). For an average student, though, the third movement is quite difficult. I would say that it would be difficult for a grade 8 student, and therefore deserves classification as 8+.

etcetra · «Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 06:48:43 AM »

Quote from: pianowolfi on February 16, 2009, 09:13:24 PM

Unfortunately 99% of the students quit before reaching the third measure of the second mvt.

I remember playing the second movement a long time ago.. its definitely not 'easy' to play it well.

goldentone · «Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 06:30:36 AM »

Quote from: general disarray on February 16, 2009, 09:43:01 PM

With all due respect, the first movement APPEARS to be easy, but controlling those hushed dynamics and making that theme sing is no task for beginners. Expert control and phrasing is required here.

Good point. I agree.

quantum · «Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 05:39:16 PM »

I think the whole sonata is deceptive with regards to it's difficulty. The notes are easy, performing them well is hard.

Somehow I find some of Beethoven's more difficult sonatas easier to perform for an audience than the Moonlight.

perfect_pitch · «Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 01:20:08 PM »

First of all... to carefully play the movement with all the proper technique AND to connect all the legato passages.... also the finger substitution may be a stretch for small hands.

Even I sometimes have a little trouble playing an octave with fingers 1-4. It's definately grade 7 I'd say (the first movement) as for the 3rd Movement I'd say is definately Grade 8.

Never underestimate grading guidelines... they're there for a reason... and if you think their too easy for what grade they are? You haven't tried playing it yet.

Couple of pointers though...

- DO NOT play the first movement at half the speed - it's boring as sh*t!
- MAKE SURE you keep a very keen eye on the dynamics. I've had people play this thing all the way through at the dynamic piano. Incredibly boring.

Petter · «Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 03:08:34 PM »

If you want to play it to someone who have heard it 10 billion times it´s probably a grade 15 piece, otherwise I´d say it´s the first movement is around ~7,654334212.

coolpianodude · «Reply #13 on: May 10, 2009, 07:44:53 PM »

youre right

ramseytheii · «Reply #14 on: May 11, 2009, 02:43:22 AM »

Quote from: threepwood on February 16, 2009, 08:20:08 PM

Hello all piano players

I have a question I must have answered, how is the Moonlight Sonata ranked at Level 8+ ? Its one of the easiest pieces of classical music...?

Are you the Honorable Freddie Threepwood?

Walter Ramsey

lontano · «Reply #15 on: July 29, 2009, 11:17:38 PM »

Quote from: quantum on February 26, 2009, 05:39:16 PM

I think the whole sonata is deceptive with regards to it's difficulty. The notes are easy, performing them well is hard.

Somehow I find some of Beethoven's more difficult sonatas easier to perform for an audience than the Moonlight.

It's been many years since I last played the Moonlight (and I never managed to play it well), but I was looking at the Urtext score now available here and was surprised to read the initial instruction that includes "to be played in its entirety without the use of the damper pedal". Without going to the piano and attempt a sumptuous, ultra-legato rendering sans pedal, I first listened to the mp3 file associated with the score and while the performance is very nice, I honestly can't believe it was played without dampers. Am I too long out of touch to appreciate the difficulty of performing it, or is the damper used (with discretion) in this (and other) recordings?

Lontano

nilsjohan · «Reply #16 on: July 30, 2009, 07:21:08 AM »

Quote from: lontano on July 29, 2009, 11:17:38 PM

I first listened to the mp3 file associated with the score and while the performance is very nice, I honestly can't believe it was played without dampers. Am I too long out of touch to appreciate the difficulty of performing it, or is the damper used (with discretion) in this (and other) recordings?

In the Piano Street Urtext we have Beethoven's instruction in Italian:
Si deve suonare tutto questo pezzo delicatissimamente e senza sordino

It translates to something like this:
This whole movement must be played with the utmost delicacy and without dampers.

Since the dampers are removed from the strings by the right pedal it means to keep the right pedal down. It's not perfectly clear if Beethoven meant to keep the pedal down throughout the whole movement whithout shifting between harmonies but even if that's how he played it on the pianos of his times it is certainly not such a brilliant idea on today's modern instruments which has much longer sustain.
Andras Schiff discusses this in his London lectures on the 32 Sonatas by Beethoven from 2006. See the link halfway down in this post: http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/piano-news/marathon-men-two-complete-beethoven-sonatas-694/

lontano · «Reply #17 on: July 31, 2009, 03:14:04 AM »

Quote from: pianowolfi on February 16, 2009, 09:13:24 PM

Unfortunately 99% of the students quit before reaching the third measure of the second mvt.

I know I did, several times...

learner of liszt · «Reply #18 on: July 31, 2009, 03:28:08 AM »

Quote from: pianowolfi on February 16, 2009, 09:13:24 PM

Unfortunately 99% of the students quit before reaching the third measure of the second mvt.

Yet funny enough, the first is my least favorite movement of the sonata (I really love the second!). Funny. The third is also great.

lontano · «Reply #19 on: July 31, 2009, 03:33:51 AM »

Quote from: nilsjohan on July 30, 2009, 07:21:08 AM

In the Piano Street Urtext we have Beethoven's instruction in Italian:
Si deve suonare tutto questo pezzo delicatissimamente e senza sordino

It translates to something like this:
This whole movement must be played with the utmost delicacy and without dampers.

Since the dampers are removed from the strings by the right pedal it means to keep the right pedal down. It's not perfectly clear if Beethoven meant to keep the pedal down throughout the whole movement whithout shifting between harmonies but even if that's how he played it on the pianos of his times it is certainly not such a brilliant idea on today's modern instruments which has much longer sustain.
Andras Schiff discusses this in his London lectures on the 32 Sonatas by Beethoven from 2006. See the link halfway down in this post: http://www.pianostreet.com/blog/piano-news/marathon-men-two-complete-beethoven-sonatas-694/

Ahhh, that makes all the difference!

(|: Dummkopf, Dummkopf!!:|)

I guess I HAVE been out of touch for too long. I know I looked at the instruction and tried to comprehend it both ways, and the idea of keeping the pedal down all the way through seemed as bizarre as not using it at all, but I obviously settled on the wrong conclusion. I did take it to the piano and attempted to play it with minimal pedal, but it sounded clunky, and bringing out the voices isn't easy on my Yamaha studio (because I recently inherited it from my mother and haven't got the $$$ to bring it up to snuff yet). Many thanks for re-awakening me!

Lontano

lorditachijr · «Reply #20 on: April 04, 2010, 10:26:23 PM »

The first movement may be easy, but the second movement is difficult to play musically, and the 3rd movement is very difficult to play all around.

dss62467 · «Reply #21 on: April 09, 2010, 04:08:51 PM »

I haven't gotten any further than printing the 3rd movement off of Pianostreet.com. It's daunting, to say the least...

pianisten1989 · «Reply #22 on: April 09, 2010, 04:53:33 PM »

What's up with answering one year old topics?

stevebob · «Reply #23 on: April 09, 2010, 05:43:49 PM »

Quote from: pianisten1989 on April 09, 2010, 04:53:33 PM

What's up with answering one year old topics?

I guess lorditachijr felt compelled to offer what was believed to be new information or a unique perspective or even the definitive answer:

Quote from: lorditachijr on April 04, 2010, 10:26:23 PM

The first movement may be easy, but the second movement is difficult to play musically, and the 3rd movement is very difficult to play all around.

I just hope the original poster is still monitoring this thread. That could be the pithy, perceptive, insightful assessment he or she was seeking.

adaubre · «Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 10:13:41 PM »

Quote from: stevebob on April 09, 2010, 05:43:49 PM

I guess lorditachijr felt compelled to offer what was believed to be new information or a unique perspective or even the definitive answer:
I just hope the original poster is still monitoring this thread. That could be the pithy, perceptive, insightful assessment he or she was seeking.

There you go again. Can't help it, can you?

adaubre · «Reply #25 on: April 09, 2010, 10:16:48 PM »

Quote from: dss62467 on April 09, 2010, 04:08:51 PM

I haven't gotten any further than printing the 3rd movement off of Pianostreet.com. It's daunting, to say the least...

Here's a really good playing of the 3rd movement by the brilliant Valentina:

stevebob · «Reply #26 on: April 09, 2010, 10:57:08 PM »

Quote from: adaubre on April 09, 2010, 10:13:41 PM

There you go again. Can't help it, can you?

This year-old thread was resurrected by a new member making his first post to the forum; it was a superficial observation, the substance of which is common knowledge and was already stated by others in this very discussion. I thought that merited a mildly sarcastic riposte.

In response, you lob yet another sanctimonious ad hominem toward me. I don't know if your modest post count on this board includes those deleted by management, but I suspect the majority of them have been attacks on other people.

There you go again. Can't help it, can you?

j_tour · «Reply #27 on: March 30, 2019, 03:28:06 PM »

Oh, I don't know.

A few months ago I brought out the old 27/2 and found the third movement not as daunting as I remembered.

It's that damned rhythm Beethoven insisted on — he really seemed to like that clomping horse-hooves punctuation in the LH.

One of my nephews is interested in piano, so to that end I thought I'd try to memorize some flashy stuff that impressed me as a child.

The Op. 27 no. 1 final movement is more difficult IMHO, but less impressive IMHO, to a child's ears. But it's more fun to play, and the whole sonata is better music.

Oh, and despite the indications, Debussy does not impress children. Not even "Minstrels" from Bk. 1.

Nor does Bach.

I think it is they have a small working memory.

bachapprentice · «Reply #28 on: January 18, 2020, 03:25:51 AM »

The fist movement may look easy and yes its not that difficult to play if you want to impress your girlfriend. But to play it beautifully is another story. The 3rd movement makes this sonata very difficult. The fastest I ever heard was by Glenn Gould warp speed.

v1ct0r · «Reply #29 on: May 22, 2020, 07:11:50 PM »

First of all notes in a piece are the first step to learning there’s still mapping of the phrasing, second this piece has three movements and the second is harder, next the notes can be deceiving my teacher comes from a lineage of teachers leading back to Beethoven himself. Most pianists play that reoccurring dotted rhythm for example incorrectly because they play what they commonly hear rather than what’s written. It’s not played as a sextuplet but rather a 4:3 rhythm which is hard to do because that top note is the loudest voice so it creates dimension in the first movement.

sdphins · «Reply #30 on: May 31, 2020, 11:47:59 PM »

Quote from: general disarray on February 16, 2009, 09:43:01 PM

With all due respect, the first movement APPEARS to be easy, but controlling those hushed dynamics and making that theme sing is no task for beginners. Expert control and phrasing is required here.

Very true

jlmap · «Reply #31 on: August 21, 2020, 08:52:20 PM »

First and second movements are quite easy.

As for the third movement, I coudn't play it for a long time. But eventually I got the way, and it became not easy, but not difficult either. I'll rank it as about 6/10 in terms of difficulty.

j_tour · «Reply #32 on: August 22, 2020, 06:57:41 AM »

Quote from: v1ct0r on May 22, 2020, 07:11:50 PM

It’s not played as a sextuplet but rather a 4:3 rhythm which is hard to do

That's one of the more good comments I've heard in a long time about music.

Although I'm not sure anyone has every played this as suggested with coupled RH and LH in sextuples.

Yeah, that's about right: try it out, just tap your LH in triplets and superimpose a four on top.

That actually works and sounds good, at least to my ears.

No, it's not exactly easy to do, but it sounds much better in my ears than the way it's sometimes played, and to Beethoven's credit, the notation does clearly state this is to have been the case. I prefer to think I've done it correctly, and, indeed, I think most people I've heard do an approximation of this idea.

But it's a fun exercise to perform if one takes a few seconds and tries it out.

No, I have no interest in playing the first movement again, ever, but it is better that way, and it's a fun idea to bring out the percussionist latent in all pianists.

I don't agree that most people play this any other way, but it's a good rhythmic exercise to practice away from the keyboard, particularly if one isn't used to this kind of polyrhythm. Even better is to tap out 4:3 using the RH as a simple guide.