Details -- Only for certain students ?

[m19834]

I guess I am struggling a little right now in knowing how to approach the individual student.  Some of this has to do with just my own desire to play, which I think I am realizing is not necessarily a "typical" desire.  In that sense, I am realizing that I tend to get obssessed with particular aspects of music/piano/playing, and I think because of that, eventually I learn these particular aspects quite well.  I still have a ways to go in bringing everything together, and I know I have more to learn in general, but that is another story I think.

What I am realizing though is that it would seem that to learn anything really well, it really takes a certain kind of dedication to that endeavor.  Obviously that is not a brand new concept.  But, I guess what I am realizing is that the majority of students who walk through my door do not truly have the kind of need to play that would make them go home and obssess over a particular concept until they get it exactly right.  Whether that is a shortcoming on my part as a teacher, or whether that is just the way the world works, I don't really know and I am open to discovering further.

Along with that, those same ideas that I, as an individual, might obssess over until I get it right, they simply can't be done halfway.  If they are approached in a halfway manner, the endeavor is meaningless as it is not actually achieving the goal.  So, in a sense, the only way to teach some of the particulars of playing would be for those students whom are deeply interested to the point of nearly an obssession... it would seem.  And, these details may make all the "difference" in piano playing, at least for what I believe I am personally wanting from my own endeavor.

I guess I just feel like I am getting to a point where if I can't teach these details, I don't really know what I am doing with a particular student who ultimately has no interest or not enough interest in truly learning them.  What am I really helping them with if they aren't learning how to do things exactly right ?  What standard are they supposed to be held to ?

Okay.  This is a little confusing for me at the time because I think this is a little new to me, this exact glimpse.  And now I am confused  .  So, I will be back.

[go12_3]

What details are you indicating about? 

[m19834]

hee hee ... yes, I realized that I was never exactly specific about that  .  But, okay, things like "relaxation" or "technique" ... I realize that those in and of themselves are not details, but it seems that one can get infinitely more detailed with regard to relaxation as well as technique.  And, I guess that is just up to the individual.  But, I am in the process of learning something right now that I am not going to try to explain in text.  I could teach it to my kids, and some will latch onto it more than others.  Those who do, I believe it will make a big difference in their playing.  But, knowing that this would make a big difference (if grasped) in somebody's playing, would I teach one of my 74 year olds the same thing ?  I just am not sure.  That is AN example of what I am thinking.

[scottmcc]

maybe you need to teach yourself relaxation? 

the way I see it, some concepts need to be revisited again and again, with different perspectives addressed each time, so that little nuances can be appreciated.  for instance...the first time you hear a symphony (like ever, not just a particular symphony), you will likely be completely unable to absorb the million little details of it--you may not even remember the main themes.  but, with careful study over time, from different perspectives (like studying each part separately, or reading the scores, or listening to different interpretations, etc), we can understand what was once overwhelming.  with a big concept like technique or relaxation, which is learned over a lifetime, you can't hope to get a broad understanding within a short period of time.

[go12_3]

Learning and teaching piano is an individual process that we undergo.  The details or whatever---- need not concern us, just the journey of becoming fine musicians regards whether we are young or old. 

[m19834]

maybe you need to teach yourself relaxation? 

eeh 

Thanks for the responses.

[go12_3]

eeh 

Thanks for the responses.

You are welcome!  = )

[db05]

Some students find the need to learn something in their own time... Or, as in some cases, the teacher makes the situation for them where they have to think deeper, or else leave some words/ demonstrations to ponder. At least that's what my teachers do sometimes for me.

Like you seem to imply, not everyone is obsessed about music like you are, and you are struggling to approach students who do not have much desire. Some scattered opinions/ ideas I'm getting are:

1. The student may not be crazy about music, but he likes it/ likes to study it, otherwise it would be evident, or he would simply quit. Of course, there are different/ more difficult situations maybe...

2. Perseverance is a virtue, and music is a good way of applying it. Sometimes even musicians get frustrated or even bored, but we find a way to push through. So it may be good to give challenges once in a while, and make it clear that though they are difficult, they are not impossible. And have a sort of reward for achieved goals, so the less-than-obsessed student has an incentive.

3. Related to #2, a classmate of mine learned 2 pieces (beyond her usual level) for bets. I did the same with Raindrop prelude. It was a good learning experience. My classmate learned to use dynamics better, and playing at high speed. I learned about memorizing and expression.

4. With regards to things being done halfway, sometimes a student (having less experience than you) would be stuck like that, especially in a challenge or a kind of rut. It might be a good idea, in that case, to let if go for a while, and come back when there is more experience in general and happy feelings as opposed to being frustrated. Like scott said, some concepts need to be revisited again and again.

Hope this helps/ gives you something to think about.

[m19834]

Some students find the need to learn something in their own time... Or, as in some cases, the teacher makes the situation for them where they have to think deeper, or else leave some words/ demonstrations to ponder. At least that's what my teachers do sometimes for me.

So far in my experience, what some teachers have contrived for me along those lines have been amateur and dangerous psychologically, IF they were even meant as a means to achieve *anything* regarding piano or even life at all.  There are some things I refuse to do to my own students, at least at this point.  I suppose I would feel differently if I felt I had actually learned whatever the contrived experiences were meant to teach me, don't you suppose ?  Until I can sort out what is useful and what is not regarding contrived circumstances, I would rather walk on the more careful side.  Maybe my whole mind would change upon meeting the "right" student and circumstances, but we'll see about that.

Like you seem to imply, not everyone is obsessed about music like you are, and you are struggling to approach students who do not have much desire.

Well, yes, actually.  Though I am not trying to say that my desire is a perfect model for the world (maybe in some ways it is even actually detrimental to my playing/musicianship/life ?  I don't know for sure yet -- and on top of that, I am often lazy, too  ), I am simply realizing that it is probably not "average" and that I cannot put my own desire onto others.  So, yes, I am trying to figure out how to better handle each individual in striving to see them in a new light, as them and who they are vs. through the eyes of me and my own desire.  In that sense, my first desire must become about the personal interaction and discovery of the individual, even above music or what is or is not coming out of their fingertips.

Thanks for your thoughts, I guess part of the problem is that I am wondering about some fairly specific things that I suppose I ought to talk with my mentor about.  In general, I do realize that some things need to be revisited over and over, and with some students or subjects more so than others, though I do need to be reminded of that  . 

I recognize that some students may need more motivation, created sometimes by things like "competitions" or stickers or challenges or whatever.  I guess with some I should more readily consider that.  That is a good reminder, too, though somehow I am still not quite getting at what has made me start this thread.  Thanks.

[go12_3]

Karli,   It's okay to begin a thread, however, just keep it direct and simple so we can contrive what you are implying.  It's okay to go into a deep analytical trance about what movitves students and how we as teachers need to fingure everything out.  The main thing, is to keep the main thing, which is, enjoy life and what we do as teachers and students.   Relax and enjoy yourself, Karli, and whatever comes along, just embrace it and learn from that experience whatever you are pursuing in your life and your students' lives and so that you will feel rewarded from within, and then you will feel gratified as your role in being a teacher and student, so that those you meet along the pathway of life will benefit from your wisdom and knowledge: that they can too be lifted up to a higher plane of what they would lilke to pursue in their lives, as students, I mean, and so that they will continue on their journey in life and be role models to those around them and the cycle of life will always come around to those lives we touch as teachers and students in order to keep being an example and what we do with our music, which should mean so much to us always, so that the world will be more gracious through our sharing and caring towards our students, and as teachers, we must continue to grow from within as we pursue our quest for improvement of our talents and knowledge.

[m19834]

Go, I realize that you are representing "one way" of going about teaching and looking at the world and what is our job.  That's fine.  I personally believe that there are not only two experiences in the world -- Joy and depression -- and that if we are not experiencing one, then we must be experiencing the other.  It's the same with "good and evil" so on an so forth.  I think there is something else. 

I once overheard a teacher (which is inconsequential, really) asking a student how they were doing, the student replied with something less than good, and the teacher's response was that we need the "bad" days to show us what are the good ones.  That, without the bad, we don't recognize the good.  This is not the first time I have heard that basic belief about life being expressed, I thought about it a bit (as I always have).  I came to the "conclusion" that there is such a thing as something being good and then the next thing being better.  Maybe, for example, an individual can play well a piece of music, but they can also play it better.  It doesn't mean it was bad to begin with (though obviously teachers hear their share of bad renditions, my mentor hearing me not excluded, hee hee).  I think the pursuit of good and better vs. good and bad is a much different animal.

I do know what I respond to, and I am also aware of when I shut down.  I am not looking for a flowery path to walk on, and I certainly am not looking to provide that for my students.  I seek challenges, I believe, but there is a difference between seeking challenges from the standpoint of wishing to get better and better, vs. putting oneself through some emotional washer of extreme good and bad, if you see what I mean.  I believe there is a much different set of principles between them, and so far I would like to challenge my students in ways that I currently feel are more creative than some of the routes sheer laziness in personal interaction can lead.  That is my perception at the time, and if that is not what I was supposed to have "learned" from my experiences, then perhaps that is an interesting point to consider.

[go12_3]

I think we need to begin another thread, here, in regarding the good and bad, the happiness and depression.  And if I respresent "one way" of going about teaching, you are mistaken, because each student are different and needs a diverse approach in teaching.  I cannot teach each student the same manner. First of all, my students are fine people, and I treat them with the respect they deserve.  They are being challenged with the music they are learning, and also, they need to enjoy and feel comfortable in what they are learning.  Some music they are learning may not be as challenging to another student.  And that's our job as teachers to channel our students to the music so that they can progress. Plus, to take into consideration, each student has diverse abilities and comprehension level towards their music and piano playing.  Yes, playing good and then better, as you mentioned, is a good motivation for students to achieve.  I think the pursuit of excellence  always should be in our journey throughout our lives. And of course, Karli,  in what you are learning is a whole different point to consider.   

[m19834]

Go, seriously  .  Spare the poor winky  .

[go12_3]

Go, seriously  .  Spare the poor winky  .

I'll wink a lot in my posts,   that's the Go-lghtly humor within me!     and many more, or I could do this   , which is about close to how I feel at the moment.  And the cheesy  can truly be facetious indeed.    have a good day!

[m19834]

have a good day!

I really think you should've started a new thread for this comment. 

:-

[go12_3]

I really think you should start a new thread for this comment. 

You started by commenting upon my winks     , so you can start another thread then.  I'm done here.  And thank you for your timely responses in this thread. 

[m19834]

Karli,   It's okay to begin a thread, however, just keep it direct and simple so we can contrive what you are implying.

Go, sorry, but how am I "supposed" to respond to you after this comment ? 

In any event, if you were sincere in your responses to me, I apologize if I have somehow offended you.  But, it's difficult to actually know for sure these days around here.  I guess I should not have posted about this in the first place as I realize I really need to ask my mentor specifically, and I have actually some specific questions that I don't want to ask here in fact ... ha ha.  I was trying to save him the trouble, but I realize that my question is truly for him (as I stated further up).  And, if this has been a useless thread, Nils has my invitation to delete it, and, as is the case with you, I will also busily go back to my own business.

[go12_3]

Go, sorry, but how am I "supposed" to respond to you after this comment ? 

In any event, if you were sincere in your responses to me, I apologize if I have somehow offended you.  But, it's difficult to actually know for sure these days around here.  I guess I should not have posted about this in the first place as I realize I really need to ask my mentor specifically, and I have actually some specific questions that I don't want to ask here in fact ... ha ha.  I was trying to save him the trouble, but I realize that my question is truly for him (as I stated further up).  And, if this has been a useless thread, Nils has my invitation to delete it, and, as is the case with you, I will also busily go back to my own business.

say,  I am only a common member here and a serious piano teacher as a profession although, I find that being here has brought me new acquiantances and some interesting threads here.  No ,  Karli, I do not get offended.  I know you were commenting about my winks and I had to spar about that.   = ) You are doing fine, just keep on posting your thoughts and I'll listen and respond likewise.  Okay?     go12_3

[pianowolfi]

Hi K

Though perhaps I can't contribute so much to this thread I want just to say that to me this question and your thoughts that follow it are certainly useful to ponder. Many times I had similar thoughts and experiences in teaching. I so often used to compare the way my students approach to piano and music to my own approach when I was in their age. I had so many solutions for technical and musical problems that I had encountered, and I felt like it would really be fun and make sense to help them resolve these things. During the first years of teaching I was surprised, how differently they learn and think and for how seemingly different reasons than me they started to play the piano. And most surprised about what role music seemed to play in their lives and in their families. As a young teacher I thought I would get a lot of little "Wolfi's" who have a burning desire to learn really great masterworks and to dive deeply into music as a kind of "more real life" and explore and express their musical personality. Well, reality was different and I had to learn not to be disappointed about it but to work as best as I can with what is there.
 At the time I try to feed them with details as early and as often as possible, details like for instance legato in one hand, staccato in the other, phrasing in the most simple pieces, details about form, about harmony, I try to find examples for them that show them that all this can be related with the "big" pieces. It's quite interesting to me that during the few years since I am aiming to teach more in this way (and, last but not least, these things got clearer to myself) there seem to appear more students who seem to actually have a potential to also get "obsessive" and passionate. I try to find the "Wolfi" in them, well of course their own sort of "Wolfi" 

[javacisnotrecognized]

The title of this thread is "Details -- Only for certain students ?"
When I read that, my first thought was "Piano IS the details!"
To clarify what I mean, I am realizing more and more that piano is not about "Expression", "Emotion", "Personal Interpretation", or any other of a number of terms that people who don't really understand what they're talking about toss around to make it look like they do
I am realizing that, at the very highest level, piano is craftsmanship. The precise volume, tone, and duration of every single note; the precise depression and lift of the pedals, the precise shape of every single phrase, chosen with the utmost care so as to perfectly fit in with every other. Of course we do not hear individual notes - We hear rhythm, articulation, phrasing, crescendos and decrescendos, etc. And from that some people draw emotional and expressive meaning, and other people draw other things. But these are all subsets of the phenomenon I already described.

Note that this is true for composers as well as performers, just that the elements are different (And there is alot of overlap as well).

Now, in my opinion, a great deal of this craftsmanship has been lost. Pianists do not know how to do these things, or that they SHOULD be doing these things. Worse, audiences do not know that these things are what they should be listening for. The worst part of all is that teachers DO NOT KNOW they should be teaching these things, WHAT they are, and HOW to teach them.

To give an example, projecting a note out over an accompaniment. For a great pianist, this is childs play. They all know how to do this; it's one of the easiest tricks in the book, and it's also one of the most beautiful.
And yet there are so many students who don't know how to do it.

Now, to get more relevant to the topic at hand - The teachers, being good pianists themselves, can hear the the student doesn't know how to do it. So they play it the right way to the student, they tell the student "Make the accompaniment softer, make the melody louder". Some students get it, others never do. But the principle is simple, I can explain it in a paragraph with a video and you would get it. And ALL the craftsmanship principles are like this - they are small details that can be explained in a paragraph or less, but since the teachers don't know all of them, and don't know how to explain them, we are left with pianists and audiences that continue to decrease in quality.

So, to summarize what has been said so far -
* The difference between a great pianist and a poor one is the details.
* The details aren't tough to explain, but you need to figure out the right explanation
* Less and less teachers know how to teach them, hence declining quality of pianists

So, here is my suggestion. Figure out the simple explanation for the details your trying to explain. Explain it to the student, demonstrate, perhaps give him a video or two. See if he picks it up. Come back here and tell me how it went.

P.S.: I'm sorry about go, she really doesn't know what she is saying, just bear with her, please  

[go12_3]

You know, java,it is irrevelvant when a fellow member has to end his wonderful dissertation,  and then to utter that, go "really doesn't know what she is saying" just bears fruit that your knowledge can't be any superior than any other members in this forum.   

[javacisnotrecognized]

You know, java,it is irrevelvant when a fellow member has to end his wonderful dissertation,  and then to utter that, go "really doesn't know what she is saying" just bears fruit that your knowledge can't be any superior than any other members in this forum.   

Except that you never post anything useful.

If you have something you want to say to me, this thread isn't the place to do it.

[go12_3]

Except that you never post anything useful.

That's for you to think and say.  We can begin an insult thread, if you'd like, java, and that will never get you anywhere.   A lot of the members do know me and read my posts, you don't have to read them.

[go12_3]

Piano playing does consist of rhythm, dynamics, pedaling and expression, indeed as java, mentioned, that it is a "craftmanship".  I think along that line, to be musically inclined is to express yourself through the notes and therefore the notes has to be produced with detail---hence, with dynamics, and so forth that is required in playing the piano.  If piano teachers do not pay attention to the details as they teach their students, then the musical expressions and craftmanship would go unnoticed.  So therefore, it is the teacher's responsiblity to show their students the correct way to count and read the notes, then learning to express themselves artistically.  And this requires patience and pratice.  The melody being more prominent than the accompaniment is another detail that needs to be accounted for.  Some students will understand this, whereas, it may take time for other students to fully comprehend to execute the melody and accompaniment.  Sometimes, the finer details, as we musicians understand will always be imbedded within our minds, however, the public who listens to a piece would not fully appreicate what the performer puts forth into the details of his playing a piece which took hours of practice and interpretation.

[keypeg]

This thread touches upon things that have been immensely important for me for a couple of years.  I think that I might understand what you are talking about, Karli, though I have never been able to explain it to anyone unless they already are familiar with it.  Apparently, as you say, most people are not prepared for it or not interested, so those who can teach it might not do so with every student.  When I started to sense something else I knocked on a closed door for a number of years, and almost believed that I was totally alone.  But it was more that it was not expected of me, so my knock was not recognized.

For anyone who wants clear and dry, sorry this is the best I can do.

[m19834]

Thank you Wolfi, Java and Keypeg !  I have read your posts and they are helpful, and then it began to become more clear what it is that I am thinking.

Basically, I am realizing that I cannot demand particular sounds out of my students IF I do not also lead them in the training to achieve those sounds.  And, sometimes the training for those sounds, training the technique, may require months even.  Also, if I am asking them to demonstrate a certain level of control in something like dynamics and articulation, I have to train them how to achieve that level of control, technically.  Again, this may take months and even years sometimes.  I don't think it is just a matter of "okay, now louder here and then get softer there."  If that does not express what I am trying to say regarding something like dynamics and articulation, let me say that I think there is a difference between giving affectations to a musical passage, vs. having everything we do with a musical passage working as a complete, artistic idea.  And, sometimes, perhaps oftentime, dynamics and articulation may be taught, learned, and passed on as mere affectations vs. a complete musical thought working as a whole.

If I ask for something without giving the technical guidence to support it, that is not only "halfway" but it is also potentially very frustrating for the individual.  In some cases, with students who may have never been taught any other way (in many cases, children), they don't know the difference between being taught "artistically" vs. any other.  But, there are sometimes individuals (more experienced) whom may have many things in need of clearing up.  When they come to me with a piece of their favorite music, wanting so badly to play it, are they really asking for nearly a complete overhaul on how they think and function at the instrument (and away from it, too) ?  If they are not really asking for that but in reality this is what would be required, do I settle for demanding, at best, 'affectations' vs. complete, artistic ideas ?  Do I not demand from them then the actual sounds the piece is asking for ?

I think there is more rattling around ... hee hee ... but that's all for now.

[keypeg]

Karli, I've been mulling about this at the other end as a student for a couple of years because of the experiences I've had. 

Music involves a feeling and something that transcends.  If we get too mechanical then we are creating a hollow appearance of the real thing.  It can fool, until the real thing comes along.  But that should be there too.  That's one aspect.  It might be an importnat one, because among other things this is the place where we hold the musical vision.  To begin with it might be a feeling, a swelling of emotion, agitation, leading to tranquility or wheter.

Still at the level of the inner vision, you may translate that swelling of emotion into crescendo, short choppy notes or joined notes, phrases or disjointed phrases.  Now you are starting to move toward theory and technique.  Crescendo: from what to what?  Timing - what kind of space between the notes in order to get the feeling of anxious anticipation, or whatever it is you are envisioning.  You can't stay with "feeling" and that's where we get hung up.

Here we start moving into theory and technique.  Theory can be dry and disconnected to music, and technique can be a set of mechanical formulas, quick fixes, or disconnected to the music.  In terms of theory I am thinking of simple things like the use of time, among other things.  If we want to manipulate the elements of music, we have to understand them.  That's what I found.

In technique, I need to be able to play loud, soft, sharp, mushy, joined, disjointed so that I can carry out my vision. This is abstract and separate from the music (or it can be).  It can be joined to the theory at times, or the vision of music + theory + technique might work together.  However the case may be, I might be doing things that have nothing to do with a particular piece of music, but will sensitize me so that I have what I need "at hand" (hand and mind). 

It happens over time and I have to be willing to do this part.  There is also only so much I can explore on my own.  some of the solutions might come from unexpected places where I might never think of looking.  That needs a teacher who can and will teach such things.

Might the vision begin with the student?  Might there need to be a wish to learn these things, a seeking which is already there?  Or do you wake up that seeking?  Both?

KP

[m19834]

Musical heaven on earth.  That is what first came to my mind after reading your post and pondering things a bit more.  I believe in a musical heaven, and I believe it is here with us right now.  I am actually very serious about that, but sometime I will come back here again, perhaps, and say something less 'crystal powery' hee hee.  Thanks for your post, Keypeg.

[keypeg]

Karli, I love the metaphor.  It comes together for me on several levels.  We deal with very earthy things: the loudness and duration of a note, the motion in our fingers, seemingly mundane matters.  Yet it is through these that the musical vision unfolds.  We cannot be body-less ethereal, and we cannot be predictable-mechanical.  It must transcend.  Or perhaps it is not transcendance as much as coming from a core which is transcendant.  Cores are not "out there" but "in here" and "in that".

KP

[m19834]

Part of what I am "struggling" with is that despite the famed advice to treat everybody individually -- and I do not disagree with this -- it would seem that there are actually bottom lines involved in music-making at the piano.  We are either having a sense of command or we are not, and within that our musical ideas (however rich or lacking they may be), are either being expressed or they are not.  And, as I expressed in my last post, developing a broader musical spectrum as well as the physical ability to express it should go hand in hand.  It seems that there are actually techniques that, everybody who would like to make those sounds --what I would now consider to be actually playing the piano -- that they would need to learn those techniques.  So, in a sense, individuality has nothing to do with whether or not somebody should learn a particular technique, unless of course they don't really want to play that badly.  I guess the point is, some element of individuality is lost at a functional level.  So, if a person is trying to "cater to the individual" by side-stepping fundamentals, then the music suffers (in my opinion).

Of course, I have had little glimmers of this before, and I suspect that as I am seeing it now is only just a little snippet, considering I have the rest of my life ahead of me, too.  But, this is definitely one way in which working with my mentor has begun to change how I think about music at the piano, with an emphasis on the array of sounds we can make and the way(s) to achieve them.

So, the dilema is that on some kind of fundametal level (on which I don't know how to put a name), individuality does not matter, yet I see that yielding to this will probably bring about a fuller freedom for the individual as the fundamentals are cultivated.  I believe it is inside of everybody in some way, but I don't know how to reach that in everybody.

[go12_3]

I think the fundamentals of learning to play piano is needful for every student, and as they progress, then perhaps the students will take on that individuality as they develop their technique and music interpretation.  I know what you are implying here, Karli, as I read your post.  As students progress, they may reach a fuller freedom, in which you indicated in your post, in expressing themselves.  That is something I haven't thought about as a teacher.  As a teacher, I try to teach the basic techniques and what would be needful for my students to play the piano, and each student is different, and probably, I need to be more aware of bringing out the individuality of my students later. But, in the meanwhile, not let the music suffer, as you mentioned.  Interesting thoughts....

[keypeg]

Paint brushes and pigment are uniform.  Everybody needs a box.  What gets painted with it?

KS

[keypeg]

I need to be more aware of bringing out the individuality of my students later.

If you give us the tools, does that not enable us to bring out our own individuality? 

[go12_3]

The individual, is course.  And besides, I know about paint brushes and such though.  And the "box"  as you are inferring is the fundamentals, correct?  

[m19834]

Yes, but people disagree on what fundamentals actually even ARE !  

Aside from that, I guess what seems to be coming more clear to me is that it actually doesn't matter what the individual wants or thinks they want  :-, if they are there to learn how to play the piano, it seems like there is more or less A way to do it.  Now, I know that there can be variations on WAYS to learning essentially the same thing, but the point is that those THINGS must be learned.  And, for some of those things, there are actually not too many possible variables.

[go12_3]

If you give us the tools, does that not enable us to bring out our own individuality? 

Of course, as a teacher, I give my students the "tools" or how else they will play piano?  

[go12_3]

Yes, I can see your point, Karli,  and there can be variables to consider, such as my students' background and circumstances, age and being able to comprehend what the fundamentals are begin given to them by me, as their teacher.  There comes a point in a students' progress that they have to find their own individuality, and I cannot do that for them.  They would have to be led to that point and hopefully they will have the freedom to express themselves.

[keypeg]

The individual, is course.  And besides, I know about paint brushes and such though.  And the "box"  as you are inferring is the fundamentals, correct?  

There was no special meaning to "box".  It's just where I tucked my paintbrushes.  My response was mainly to Karli, because your response had not appeared whiel I was writing.

If we have the tools, then the rest is up to us.  The innate substance, whatever it is that we are born with, leads us, and awakens over time. We need the tools.
KS

[javacisnotrecognized]

There was no special meaning to "box".  It's just where I tucked my paintbrushes.  My response was mainly to Karli, because your response had not appeared whiel I was writing.

If we have the tools, then the rest is up to us.  The innate substance, whatever it is that we are born with, leads us, and awakens over time. We need the tools.
KS

I think it does not "Wake up over time". I think rather, some experience (Or set of experiences) triggers it. I think also that a skillful teacher can cause these events to happen, rather than take the chance that it will eventually work itself out.

[go12_3]

There was no special meaning to "box".  It's just where I tucked my paintbrushes.  My response was mainly to Karli, because your response had not appeared whiel I was writing.

If we have the tools, then the rest is up to us.  The innate substance, whatever it is that we are born with, leads us, and awakens over time. We need the tools.
KS

I think if I had to wait over time while teaching my students, they may not ever realize their innate abilities.  So from beginners I begin to show my students the tools that they need.

[pianowolfi]

If we have the tools, then the rest is up to us.  The innate substance, whatever it is that we are born with, leads us, and awakens over time. We need the tools.
KS

Of course this is true. Though, I can't but think that sometimes this innate substance that leads us can give us also tools, sometimes even ones that we never dreamed of.

[m19834]

I think it does not "Wake up over time". I think rather, some experience (Or set of experiences) triggers it. I think also that a skillful teacher can cause these events to happen, rather than take the chance that it will eventually work itself out.

I've been thinking about this a bit.  Basically, I agree.  I think that whatever is within us which is needing to be expressed, there is definitely some element of that being somehow intrinsically linked to the right circumstances to do so.  I think that sometimes the 'need to express' may find or create its own circumstances, and then sometimes the circumstances find the expression (or perhaps they find each other).  Either way, they are very much linked one to another, and I don't believe that 'expression' itself of any kind, can truly exist (not in full realization anyway) without the right circumstances.  So, if it does indeed "wake up" at all, it is in fact due to there being the right circumstances somehow nurturing that kind of waking, and it is a wonderful thing if the rapport between teacher and student can allow for this to happen. 

[lostinidlewonder]

With every student you teach you must be very detailed. Detailed means you must know exactly what this student needs. Not all students are at a level in a particular piece to be able to express their music musically. A lot of them are caught up over the notes, that is their mind focuses on the physical aspect of playing so much so that considering the musical is too difficult. Experienced musicians will throw their hands up and say, "But the musical controls the physical!". However when teaching some students we must consider the two separate before they come together.

How to initially teach the physical nature of playing a piece will focus on two factors; memory and fingering. Ensure that a students understands with words logically what a phrase causes in their hands and exactly which fingers cause most observation to a pattern of notes. Efficiency of technique is unimportant if the student struggles with the fingering. If a student does something totally repulsive with their technique you can correct it, but if it is a minor adjustment leave it for the time being. Usually when the fingering and memory is connected they automatically correct their own errors.

We must be very detailed in how a piece is memorized. This is very unique for each student and you really have to know your students mind to be able to relate memory issues in their own terms. This also applies to adjustments of their technique, you must be able to explain and demonstrate changes to their playing via their own technique. This often causes a change in the stages to produce the correct technique. Advanced students can make these changes immediately because we can relate changes on a higher plane, however lesser students need more time and more steps.

Details when teaching is not about teaching a piece in such a way that it is at concert standard. The details you must go through are dependent on the needs of a student. I have spent an entire lesson on things with beginner students which would take me a few seconds to understand. You almost have to have split personality as a music teacher, especially if you teach beginners because if you relate music at your level to a beginner, they will totally miss the deep meanings behind what you say. It is our responsibility to move them towards that understanding and the very detailed baby steps they must take to get there.

[m]

I guess I am struggling a little right now in knowing how to approach the individual student. 

Sorry Karli, your message is so long that I just desided to shorten it and get to the very essense of it (i.e. the very first sentense), so I'll try to answer it in the same short manner:

1) See every student of yours as your own child and treat them accordingly, accepting them as grown up persons, rather than kids,
2) Accept and talk to your students as to adults. Music is about whole range of human emotions. Don't afraid that language and emotions. Kids are much smarter than we give them credit for. They will trust you much more if you are treating them as adults.
3) Take responsibility for every student of yours--that's the part of the profession, that's the part of the deal, and this responsibility comes back to the 1).

Best, M

[m19834]

Sorry Karli, your message is so long that I just desided to shorten it and get to the very essense of it (i.e. the very first sentense), so I'll try to answer it in the same short manner:

1) See every student of yours as your own child and treat them accordingly, accepting them as grown up persons, rather than kids,
2) Accept and talk to your students as to adults. Music is about whole range of human emotions. Don't afraid that language and emotions. Kids are much smarter than we give them credit for. They will trust you much more if you are treating them as adults.
3) Take responsibility for every student of yours--that's the part of the profession, that's the part of the deal, and this responsibility comes back to the 1).

Best, M

Thanks for your post, I appreciate your thoughts.  I will continue to hone the skill of percision in writing, however, it is a work in progress for me.  I don't aim to be unclear, though sometimes my own thoughts do not become more clear until I have written them out (and even still sometimes it's a struggle).

Thank you for your post as well, Lostinidlewonder, I appreciate it .