older Serious Student

[elbert]

I am a two year student of piano. I am curious to know how many older students become skilled pianist? I have questions about where I should be at this point and or if there are things I could be doing to expedite my training. I practice from 15 to 20 hours a week. Never before had any musical training. I have completed all the Hanon Study. I am now a few lessons into the Clementi studies. I am playing pieces by Alexander Scriabin, Frans Lizst-Lob der Tranen, Jules Massenet-Meditation and Satie. In my studies I sometimes think I am not gathering all the fundamendles in my lessons like specific chording or chord progression. Maybe I am impatience. However I think I have a great teacher but I've never had one of those before either. Any advise would be greatly honored.
thanks E

[go12_3]

How about trying Czerny, which has selected studies, and you can check which opuses would fit your level.  The Bach's Prelude and Fugues  from WTC Books 1 & 2;  Debussy's First Araesques would be enjoyable to learn.  And if you want to challenge yourself, try out one of Chopin's Etudes.  Just browse through the music library here in Piano Music and there will be a list of composers that you can pick from.  Then click on the composer's name and check out the list of the pieces.  You  can listen to a brief recording of pieces also.   Hope this would help.   

[elbert]

My instructor has plans of going to Czerny next. The Clementi is very broad and will take a while. he has also mention doing the Moskowsky Etudes. The thing I am frustrated with is it seems I don'nt know what I am doing but I am doing what I am supposed to. I haven'nt even learned simple chords. Does that just show up somewhere or do I address that separately.
Thanks E

[dan101]

Hi there,

It seems you want two different types of training; one that develops your technique and one that hones your improvising skills (learning about chords, etc...). You may want to purchase a theory book/beginner jazz improvisation book as a supplement to your traditional lessons.

Good luck and keep up the hard work.

[keypeg]

This is something that comes up among us adult students in various ways.  Maybe I can open up some things and teachers can give their input.

It appears that music (instrument) studies can have two components, especially the traditional studies.  On the one hand you have pieces and etudes (studies) and the etudes can simply be done as something you play through as a piece, with technique maybe mentioned.  On the other hand, there are scales, chords, arpeggios, exercises to master certain technical things.  There is theory in two ways - on paper (formal things.  Theory can also sneak in, in a practical way so you don't notice it: chords and chord progressions in the music you are playing so that you absorb the pattern into your hands and ears.  Your teacher might just mention "you have moved to the dominant" or "dominant chord" and you don't catch on that you're learning theory.

It seems that some teachers teach that formal traditional way, and others stick to pieces and etudes.  If you are doing things like Clementi, they you are actually getting a lot of formal structure which is embedded in that music.  You're absorbing it.  At least you're not just getting "fun popular" music (I'm letting my feelings show).  But you are not being taught anything abstract overtly.

A number of teachers express the opinion that adult students do not want to have theory and technique.  They believe that because of the reaction they often get from adult students to that effect.  It can happen that young students will be given more formal instruction, with the things I mentioned, while adults are not given that formal instruction, and that the reason is due to that perception.  Some of us have made the experiment of talking to our teachers, speaking of our interest in theory and technique, and in all cases except one the teacher welcomed this and added this to their teaching.

It might be a good idea to ask your teacher about theory, chords, scales etc. and what his/her stance on them are.  If he likes them but thought you were not interested, it's a good time to mention that you are interested.  Some teachers believe that you can get scales etc. through the music, and do not like doing them separately.  Other teachers believe that (adult) students will balk, so they sneak the scales etc. into music.  Clementi has tons of scales, broken arpeggios, as well as a classical formal structure which you can draw on when you take theory.

One objection that I heard from some teachers is that there is not enough time to teach everything in a lesson.  The answer to that is that when there is a motivated student, there are many things that we can do on our own and simply be pointed the way.

Part of the complication becomes apparent when you read forums such as this one.  Not that long ago there was a post by an adult student telling teachers what we want, and it was the opposite of what you have written.  Since we come in such a variety, it is a good idea to discuss such things with our teachers.

I went through this a couple of years ago with my own teacher.  I had not had the benefit of reading about it in discussion boards.  A number of things changed in my lessons.  In regards to theory, my teacher said "I didn't know you were interested."  The upshot is that I did two RCM exams up to the advanced level in one year.  I did most of the studying on my own.  A teacher's input, however, will give the musical side to it - otherwise theory can be almost like algebra, just shoving numbers and spaces around. 

Some resources:
https://psrtutorial.com/Resources/R_ChordSecrets/r_chordsecrets.html
This is a superb way of getting a physical understanding of the chords and gives you theory by experiencing it and hearing it: major, minor, etc. chords, inversions, circle of fifths (also the pattern of how our key signatures are built, and leading to things you need in harmony theory).  It is good to experience theory rather than just learning it cerebrally.
This site gives fundamental theory:
https://musictheory.net/
this site is superb and also moves toward more advanced things;
https://www.teoria.com/

Do talk to your teacher.

KP

[elbert]

Thank you so very much,
I have exstensive Chord books, the circle of fiths chord ring, downloads of Theory which I relay to often and this is on my own. I enjoy reading and pushing letters and spaces around. However bringing this all back to the keyboard is another thing along with my lessons. I understand more now through your response. I know my instructor is knowing chords and theory will come through my training he has prepared and he is always willing to answer any questions and give detailed theory explanation. When at that time I usually don'nt get it. I am probably realizing some things at this point that until now I didn'nt know to ask and could not have understood. I can play a piece of sheet music and have no clue as to what chords are in the scale make up to help know what to expect ahead. I know enough to fill like there are spaces in my understanding that are only filled in time as finding the next piece to the puzzle. I think I could probably read theory all day but in the end it takes doing it to get to know it. I guess it seems as if while building this foundation I have left out some important parts and I am standing on a shaky plateform.
I'm very thankful for your thurough response. I needed your perspective. I respect and reguard my instructor highly and am proud to be his student however am passionate about being a skilled pianist at now 53 years old. My instructor while being a renowned classical pianist also carries the title of being the last living keyboardist for the well know band The Greatful Dead.
I suppose being an adult student its difficult not know something about what we are dealing with until we get there.
thanks, Elbert

[scottmcc]

something you can do to reinforce the keys, chords, and scales, is to begin your study of a work with practicing that particular scale, and then the related scales (which are likely to appear within the work.  For instance...if you were learning Satie's Gymnopedie I, you would start with the D major scale, and then you would look at the score and see that it does some major-minor transitions, so you would practice the D minor scale as well.  (I chose this example because I'm guessing it was the Satie piece you had learned).

you can also invent little exercises for yourself, to self test your theory knowledge as you learn more and more...for instance, try playing the root notes of the circle of 5ths, both backwards and forwards, and then try playing each of the scales in that order, or take different steps than 5ths--try 4ths, or 6ths, or something else. 

the theory links listed above are all great.  you should also start trying to do your own basic analysis of each piece you are learning.  with the simple exercises it will be pretty easy once you get the hang of it, but a lot of the pieces you listed won't be as easy to analyze--they don't always fit the rules.  here's a basic way of analyzing a piece:  start by determining what key it is written in, then determine the key progressions, and identify any important structural elements (ie repeated 4 bar phrases, or a repeated motif).  you don't have to get too crazy with it like some of the theorists do, unless you want to.  if you're theory-minded, you'll probably start doing it even as you first hear a piece, at least once you get a little practice.

oh yeah...simple chords.  root, third, 5th, octave.  you now have a triad chord.  try it in each of the keys.     


one more link for you:  google schiff guardian uk, and you can find lectures by andras schiff on all of the beethoven sonatas.  great analysis without getting too crazy into the depths of theory, and great music to boot!