overrated/ overplayed: to play or not to play?

[db05]

I'm curious about overplayed vs underplayed works, since some people here would hate to see another performance of Fur Elise, for instance... This being an obvious example, I can only name few others. It seems as if some take it for granted that the pianists of this forum know a lot of repertoire, and are surprised that some of us actually don't!!

And if you're my level, well, do you really have a choice in the matter? 
How does this affect your/ your teacher's choice of pieces for you?

[thalbergmad]

There are many popular pieces that i would not cross the road to hear again, but also i would not deter others from learning.

As an individual, you do have a lot of choice which pieces to learn to develop your skills, but teachers might have a slightly more narrow view. My teacher soon learned that i would not go near anything in the standard rep, as i did not want to be just another 3rd rate hack churning out the same badly played Beethoven as thousands of others.

For me, it was a great experience to move away from the more popular composers and it appeals to my sense of adventure when i play something that might not have been played for a hundred years.

Thal

[ahinton]

There are many popular pieces that i would not cross the road to hear again, but also i would not deter others from learning.

As an individual, you do have a lot of choice which pieces to learn to develop your skills, but teachers might have a slightly more narrow view. My teacher soon learned that i would not go near anything in the standard rep, as i did not want to be just another 3rd rate hack churning out the same badly played Beethoven as thousands of others.

For me, it was a great experience to move away from the more popular composers and it appeals to my sense of adventure when i play something that might not have been played for a hundred years.

You must presumably be referring here to piano repertoire from that era, since I do not think that anyone was composing specifically for banjo in the early years of the last century; correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I am sure i have seen a piano concerto that required a banjo, but i cannot remember the composer and i think it was more recent.

Thal

[db05]

You must presumably be referring here to piano repertoire from that era, since I do not think that anyone was composing specifically for banjo in the early years of the last century; correct me if I'm wrong, but...

lol. Does Thal play piano? I would like to hear that. 

Hmmm. Hard to play something without a reference though. If nobody's played it before, how would you know if you're doing it right?

Just sharing... Yesterday I was searching classical sonatinas on Youtube. Clementi Op. 36 is overplayed. Kuhlau Op. 20 is overplayed. But same composers, different opus numbers are not played at all: Clementi Op. 37 and 38, Kuhlau Op. 59 specifically.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Hmmm. Hard to play something without a reference though. If nobody's played it before, how would you know if you're doing it right?

That's part of the fun. You have to think about the piece and use your own judgement.

[db05]

That's part of the fun. You have to think about the piece and use your own judgement.

Curiously, it has never happened to me since my teacher makes it a point to demonstrate every piece I learn. Maybe I should pick something up without her help?

[retrouvailles]

I am sure i have seen a piano concerto that required a banjo, but i cannot remember the composer and i think it was more recent.

Thal

George Antheil's "A Jazz Symphony" (the original version) requires a banjo. It actually isn't that recent, for it was written in around 1922 or so. It also requires a number of other not-so-common instruments (as far as piano concertos are concerned), like a tenor saxophone, accordion, two other pianos in the orchestra (in addition to the soloist), among others. Great piece though.

[communist]

George Antheil's "A Jazz Symphony" (the original version) requires a banjo. It actually isn't that recent, for it was written in around 1922 or so. It also requires a number of other not-so-common instruments (as far as piano concertos are concerned), like a tenor saxophone, accordion, two other pianos in the orchestra (in addition to the soloist), among others. Great piece though.

Just wandering, where do you hear of all these pieces?

[thalbergmad]

lol. Does Thal play piano? I would like to hear that. 

Hmmm. Hard to play something without a reference though. If nobody's played it before, how would you know if you're doing it right?

1. You will in the next couple of months when i record a couple of sonatas by Woelfl.

2. You don't know if it is right and you won't get anybody telling you it is definately wrong.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

George Antheil's "A Jazz Symphony" (the original version) requires a banjo. It actually isn't that recent, for it was written in around 1922 or so. It also requires a number of other not-so-common instruments (as far as piano concertos are concerned), like a tenor saxophone, accordion, two other pianos in the orchestra (in addition to the soloist), among others. Great piece though.

It was Victor Ullmann i was trying to remember old chap, but now it seems he was not alone.

Thal

[richard black]

Hard to play something without a reference though. If nobody's played it before, how would you know if you're doing it right?

To be brutally frank, if you can't work that out for yourself you'll never be a musician.

[pianochick93]

Overplayed works are overplayed for a reason, I think. In a lot of them there are probably little technical things, or when played properly they sound good. Some people can't stand to hear them because they are so often not played properly.
I haveno doubt that most of the things I play, overplayed or not, I don't play 'correctly' or 'well'. It hasn't stopped me learning them and gaining the technical skills required, whether I've gained them to their full extent or not.

So, in my opinion, people should not shy away from learning them, because they so have something to offer. If you can master them they do sound good.

[retrouvailles]

Overplayed works are overplayed for a reason, I think.

In my experience, I would say that people play overplayed works because they don't know better. Most musicians do not have an extensive knowledge of the repertoire and only play what their teacher tells them to play, sadly. That is why everyone plays the same thing in conservatories nowadays. People forget that there is a LOT of piano music out there, a lot of which is good (sometimes better than standard rep)., but only about 1% (not exaggerating) is played. So, the fact that a piece is overplayed does not mean that it is good, even if it is played very well. And, regarding the gaining technical skills part, you could just as well learn something that isn't stamdard rep to gain technical skills, just as long as it is well written for that purpose. Sure, there are some standard rep works that deserve their place at the top, but there are other standard rep works (that may not be good at all) that are just popular because they were promoted a lot shortly after their premiere by a famous musician (who might have been the dedicatée).

So what I do is that I do both standard and nonstandard rep to sort of balance out eachother. I believe we shouldn't lose sight of the classics that deserve their place atop the repertoire, but I also believe in promoting works that have been unjustly neglected.

[db05]

To be brutally frank, if you can't work that out for yourself you'll never be a musician.

Uh-oh. I've been thinking of showing repertoire I haven't heard to my teacher. But as I stated above, she would play it to show me, which defeats the purpose. 


I agree with retro.

[thalbergmad]

In my experience, I would say that people play overplayed works because they don't know better.

Spot on old boy.

Thal

[Petter]

The accessibility of public domain sheet music compared to contemporary pieces under copyright infringement probably adds a lot why some don´t bother. It´s also harder to find public domain sheets of lesser known composers. If the choice stands between a fully printed Schubert piece three clicks away or 30 minutes research on google and 2 weeks mail delivery, what would the majority chose?

[thalbergmad]

The 2 weeks mail delivery for me.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It´s also harder to find public domain sheets of lesser known composers. If the choice stands between a fully printed Schubert piece three clicks away or 30 minutes research on google and 2 weeks mail delivery, what would the majority chose?

It only seems reasonable to point out that there is a vast amount of readily available sheet public domain music by lesser-known composers on IMSLP, and therefore I don't feel this works as a justification for not playing lesser-known pieces.

So, at the risk of sounding like a proselytizing bore, why do people not play it?

1) it's crap?
2) they don't know about IMSLP and similar sites?
3) they do know of IMSLP etc, but are too lazy to look?
4) there's no point in learning it, because no-one wants to hear it?
5) they have no intellectual curiosity and don't want to look outwith the accepted repertoire

(from my experience: 1 = sometimes true, 4 = definitely false). I'm genuinely interested in what the reason is btw.

[richard black]

The accessibility of public domain sheet music compared to contemporary pieces under copyright infringement probably adds a lot why some don´t bother.

Public libraries?

[general disarray]

Maybe I should pick something up without her help?

Definitely.  But avoid sailors.

[db05]

Definitely.  But avoid sailors.

How about a pianist? 

[ahinton]

The accessibility of public domain sheet music compared to contemporary pieces under copyright infringement probably adds a lot why some don't bother. It's also harder to find public domain sheets of lesser known composers. If the choice stands between a fully printed Schubert piece three clicks away or 30 minutes research on google and 2 weeks mail delivery, what would the majority chose?

As Richard Black has replied, "public libraries". In any case, the only discouragement that this might give a few people is from spending money on music rather than getting it for free (how very thoughtful of those publishers to put that public domain music there so that one can get it for free!). Furthermore, the copyright issue does not just apply to contemporary music, since the most common composer copyright term expires on the last day of the 70th year following the composer's death - in other words, anything composed by someone who died in 1939 currently falls into that category (with certain exceptions including quite abit of Russian music); this effectively means that there remain some 19th century pieces still under copyright.

Best,

Alistair

[Petter]

Ok then, what about, what the audiences want to hear? Or what the producers (whatever they are) think the audience wants to hear? Which affects the artists and their repertoire. If Lang-Lang or Kissin play Rach 3 you´d guarantee full sale. Maybe it´s not so much up to them to decide what to play?

[db05]

Public libraries?

Almost nonexistent in our country. And I doubt they have a big enough music section. Even in book/ music stores, the choices of music sheets are few. And the only way to get some more of the standard repertoire is to enroll in a music school/ conservatory. Or if someone had the time to photocopy and distribute music outside school.

I inherited the hobby of collecting sheets online from thalbergdad. 

Ok then, what about, what the audiences want to hear? Or what the producers (whatever they are) think the audience wants to hear? Which affects the artists and their repertoire. If Lang-Lang or Kissin play Rach 3 you´d guarantee full sale. Maybe it's not so much up to them to decide what to play?

This is sad.  Pianists should be able to choose their repertoire, at those levels at least where they can play pretty much anything and guarantee someone will listen. Someone like Lang Lang could afford shocking people, as he already does in his performances.

Students though, especially beginners, don't have much knowledge/ choice.

[bob3.1415926]

If the choice stands between a fully printed Schubert piece three clicks away or 30 minutes research on google and 2 weeks mail delivery, what would the majority chose?

I don't know about you, but it's rare that I decide I want to learn a piece and have to start doing so in about three clicks time. When I'm coming towards the end of something, if I have nothing lined up, I'll order the next one. It works remarkably well. Given that I'll be working on it every day for weeks (months?), a small investment of time at the start really doesn't seem out of place. To be honest though, usually I will already have found my next piece somehow, and been looking forward to learning it for a while.

I love learning pieces I've never heard. It lets you discover things for yourself.

[Petter]

I just think most teachers with lots of students chose pieces from what they´re used to and what they know so the tradition is passed on. But I don´t know either, I should have phrased myself differently perhaps.

[thalbergmad]

Students though, especially beginners, don't have much knowledge/ choice.

They might not have much knowledge but i submit they do have more choice, since the beginner/student does not have to worry about CD's sales or concert attendances as i expect the professional pianist does.

When i suggested an obscure sonata to my teacher once, he replied "i have to put bums on seats".

So perhaps it is not the pianist that is to be blamed for playing overplayed works, but the audience??

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

When i suggested an obscure sonata to my teacher once, he replied "i have to put bums on seats".

So perhaps it is not the pianist that is to be blamed for playing overplayed works, but the audience??

Thal

Audiences are prepared to accept a surprisingly level of outright obscurity, if it's presented to them in a congenial manner. That's my experience, at least.

[thracozaag]

Audiences are prepared to accept a surprisingly level of outright obscurity, if it's presented to them in a congenial manner. That's my experience, at least.

Bortkiewicz has proven to be a surprisingly big hit with audiences universally in recent recital programs.

[thalbergmad]

Yes old chap, but that might also have something to do with your playing.

Thal