Octave Glissandos...

[perfect_pitch]

I NEED HELP!!!

For my Fellowship of Music Exam I have two pieces which require the use of Octave glissandos... Brahms - Variations on a theme by Paganini (Books 1 & 2) and Stravinsky's 3 Movements from Petrouchka...

Here's the annoying thing... I understand more or less how to play it... however my hand can barely reach a tenth and every time I try to play one slowly... I pretty much have only enough reach to do a seventh when trying.

If you have small hands... is it acceptable for EXAM PURPOSES to play it just like a standard glissando???

[tds]

whoaa perfect_pitch...those pieces are killers...

If you have small hands... is it acceptable for EXAM PURPOSES to play it just like a standard glissando???

its within the standard repertoire. i doubt it is entirely acceptable. if you have difficulties in playing octave glissandi, why will you wanna play extremely hard pieces with this technical device? when is the exam? how do you feel about changing repertoire? or how about changing one of them?-that way you have less pressure, while keeping the faith of being able to master the technique soon. sorry i am not helping

[richard black]

You just have to bodge it. Play an octave then start glissandoing. You'll actually end up playing a seventh, or even a sixth, instead of an octave but if you do it fast enough no one will notice. The only place I know of where you can't get away with that is the last movement of Beethoven's Waldstein Sonata.

[thalberg]

For people with large hands, you can position your thumb to glissando on the thumbnail.

For people with smaller hands, you can still do an octave glissando.  Just spread your hand so that your thumb begins on two notes--the octave and the ninth from the 5th finger.  Start the glissando instantly and it is easy to maintain the sliding.  In fact, a flatter hand like this makes the glissando quite easy.  I can do glissandos in tenths that way.

[retrouvailles]

The only place I know of where you can't get away with that is the last movement of Beethoven's Waldstein Sonata.

I've said this before in other threads, and I'll say it again: that part in the Waldstein is not an octave glissando. Nowhere does it say to play it as a glissando and it is completely possible to play all of the notes quickly at tempo without doing a glissando. In the Brahms and Stravinsky, you really have no choice but to glissando, whereas in the Beethoven, you are able to actually give the notes full attack.

Oh and I agree with what's been said about octave glissing: play them as octaves first, then just do it quickly. It doesn't matter what interval you play midway or whatever. It is just a gesture really, in most cases. All of the individual notes are not individually important.

[richard black]

I've said this before in other threads, and I'll say it again: that part in the Waldstein is not an octave glissando.

I'm sure you're right, but I've never studied it and never had to make a decision!

[perfect_pitch]

I know those pieces are killers... but considering for my Fellowship, I need to put on a bloody good recital and I can't hold back. My Piano teacher suggested all four pieces and she's never had to put anyone through this level of an exam before. I've already spent a solid month starting these pieces, although I'm hoping the AMEB council will approve of my program. Once they approve of it, then there's no changing it.

And thalberg... that seems a bit of a weird technique... but I'll try and give it a go.

[claude_debussy]

QUOTE ON I've said this before in other threads, and I'll say it again: that part in the Waldstein is not an octave glissando. Nowhere does it say to play it as a glissando and it is completely possible to play all of the notes quickly at tempo without doing a glissando. QUOTE OFF (I think this was Retrouvailles ..)


Not sure what you mean by the response above. 

On the Waldstein: there are three ways to do it - octave glissandos, individual octaves with superhuman wrist speed, or Schnabel's 'cheat' (see his edition, or just work out your own, with both hands playing the octaves pp).

Everyone's talking like a bunch of pianists around here and ignoring the far more important musical question: what musical effect is being attempted? I.e., what do you want it to sound like?

(vastly preferable to 'how do you push down all those keys so fast?')

My facsimile of the Waldstein autograph gives no definitive indication - the only clue it contains is that each octave is marked 5-1.  What does that mean?  Probably on Beethoven's piano you could do it either way; on a modern grand it's harder.

Schnabel's 'cheat' doesn't quite get every note, but that doesn't matter - it sounds the best.  Even Gulda, whose Beethoven cycle is technically immaculate in every detail, doesn't bother with the glissandos - it's musically wrong.

Particularly on a modern piano.

Ironically Horowitz's Waldstein, the recording with the fastest individually-played octaves on the planet, sounds the worst.  The musical effect is all wrong. 

It sounds like a virtuoso stunt and destroys the line of the music.

The effect you want is one of superhuman restraint - a smooth sheet of icy water falling off the edge of a high cliff, all pp with no accentuation of any kind.  Playing individual octaves, you can't avoid accentuating and making it sound like a virtuoso stunt, which is what Horowitz's performance sounds like.  And don't get me wrong, I'm a big Horowitz fan.

The octave glissandi aren't that hard to play either - you might try Rudolf Serkin's trick and surreptitiously lick the relevant fingertips a moment before (he also did this in the octave glissando leading up to the recapitulation in the 1st movement of Beethoven's First Piano Concerto).   If you experiment, you can do it ... if you want to.

It's just that you shouldn't 'want' to play those glissandi - or individual octaves - in the Waldstein.  The desired musical result should guide the technical approach, not the opposite. 

For the Stravinsky and Brahms, just smash your hand down and fake it.  At first it sounds awful but it will get better.  Lick your fingers.  Avoid bloodshed.

But no one should avoid playing the Waldstein - or anything else - because of a couple bars that are problematic.  And don't avoid playing the Goldberg Variation because of an ornament you can't play 'correctly.' (lots of cheats there too). 

If you get the sound right, no one will care how you achieved it - that's the whole trick of piano playing.

peace,  claude

ps and don't forget to play my piano etudes, the greatest piano work of the 20th century ..  still awaiting the great performance I imagined when i wrote them ..

[cygnusdei]

Here is Andras Schiff's lecture on Op. 53:

https://download.guardian.co.uk/sys-audio/Arts/Culture/2006/11/30/21_gmaj_op53-w.mp3