Reading bass key habit... good or bad ?

[drooxy]

Hi everyone,

I am not a good sight reader and I would like to improve that skill.

Reading the book "Super Sight Reading Secrets" from H. Richmann, I realize that my way of reading the bass key might be completely wrong: I visually move notes up one line (or space) so that I can read them as if they were on the trebble staff...

Is that going to be a handicap and should I definitely get rif of that habit ?

Thank you !

Drooxy

[Saturn]

Drooxy:

So, what you're essentially doing is thinking of the bass clef in reference to the treble, right?  This is okay, when you first start learning a clef (it's how I learned alto clef when I was learning the viola), but eventually you want to move past that.  What you're doing is adding a step to the mental process of notereading.

One good analogy is foreign language:

Person #1 is an English-speaking adult who is just starting to learn Spanish.  When he sees 'el gato', his brain translates it to 'the cat', which is then translated to a mental image of a cat

Person #2 is a native Spanish speaker.  When he sees 'el gato', his brain gives him the mental image of a cat.

The first person will be slower and less accurate until his familiarity with Spanish grows to the point that he doesn't need to translate to English first.  So yes, you'll definitely want to get rid of that habit.

- Saturn

[drooxy]

All that makes sense ! Thanks Saturn !

Drooxy

[squinchy]

Drooxy:

So, what you're essentially doing is thinking of the bass clef in reference to the treble, right?  This is okay, when you first start learning a clef (it's how I learned alto clef when I was learning the viola), but eventually you want to move past that.  What you're doing is adding a step to the mental process of notereading.

One good analogy is foreign language:

Person #1 is an English-speaking adult who is just starting to learn Spanish.  When he sees 'el gato', his brain translates it to 'the cat', which is then translated to a mental image of a cat

Person #2 is a native Spanish speaker.  When he sees 'el gato', his brain gives him the mental image of a cat.

The first person will be slower and less accurate until his familiarity with Spanish grows to the point that he doesn't need to translate to English first.  So yes, you'll definitely want to get rid of that habit.

- Saturn

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I did the same thing with the alto clef (also learning viola). However, I think that if you play enough music while putting in some effort to read bass clef like Person #2 in the language analogy, the old habit will go away quite easily.

[bernhard]

Saturn is right.

Yes, it is going to be a handicap and you should definitely get rid of it.

You should not think of a “G-clef” staff with five lines, and an “F-clef staf” with finve lines. Instead, consider both staffs as one single “grand staff” with eleven lines. Five of the G-clef staff, five of the F clef staff and one “imaginary line” in between staves. This imaginary line is, of course, the C line.

Have a look here where I elaborate on this idea, and where you can also read some arguments against it:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1081187434


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Saturn]

You should not think of a “G-clef” staff with five lines, and an “F-clef staf” with finve lines. Instead, consider both staffs as one single “grand staff” with eleven lines. Five of the G-clef staff, five of the F clef staff and one “imaginary line” in between staves. This imaginary line is, of course, the C line.

Wow!  I've never thought about learning (or teaching) them as a single clef.  I was taught treble clef first.  Then I was assigned lots of music for only the treble clef, which really crippled me and made it hard to learn bass clef.

Anyway, your idea is excellent.  Someone who wants to be able to read piano music quickly will have to see it as a single staff, so learning it that way from the outset is very good.

Where do you come up with all your ideas and teaching methods?

- Saturn

[madmax]

That is super thinking them as one. Thank you Bernhard.I am learning piano for one month now ( I am 24)  and I have just learned bass clef in yesterdays lesson and it will be much easier now as thinking the bass and treble clef as one.  

[drooxy]

Thanks indeed Bernhard !

I'll try that !

Drooxy

[willcowskitz]

Middle C divides the clefs, the mirror imageness of the C line on bass and treble clefs should be big enough of a hint of that its actually an 11-line clef as a whole.  Maybe because I wasn't taught music theory I wasn't forced to think of them separately, they are more like different screens of the same map.

By knowing C's I learnt other notes and location on keyboard; since it takes an odd number of steps (seven) to reach an octave, it takes an odd number of steps to go from C to D, F or C.  It takes an even number of steps to go from C to E, G or H.  This is how I see from whether its on a line or in between lines, which of the keys it most probably is.  In an octave interval there are 3 lines between the ends, so if one note is on a line and another is in between lines, the distance is "an odd number of steps", meaning there is even number of keys in between them.  I can't even name a key by it's letter without starting the count from C but I can read sheet music well because of these visual "rules".  I'm pretty confident I didn't help anyone here but, hey, its a view.

[goalevan]

yep definately think of them as one large clef. I'm also following Richman's book and making some good progress so far - I finished VP/KO 4 last week and this week I started VP/KO 5, the first step with the Chorales. Which part are you on now?

[drooxy]

Goalevan,

I Just received the book 2 days ago so I had a quick look at it... and understood that I should change my way of reading !

I have not started the VP/KO yet...

Is the method really worth it ? Do you work on it everyday, and how long ? Let me know !  

Cheers,

Drooxy

[goalevan]

Here's how I worked through it so far:

I read through the whole book to get an idea of what was ahead, then made sure I was able to do basic perception drills like he says, before moving to the KO/VP section.

I was able to pass KO/VP 1 within the first few days and move on to KO/VP 2, and pass that within about 3-4 days also. The KO 2 took a little getting used to but I got that down pretty well and moved on.

VP 3 is a little tougher and that'll start training your absolute touch pretty well, this one took me about exactly a week to pass, (I passed KO 3 in a few days and spent most of my time on VP for the rest of the week).

After passing VP/KO 3 I got the hang of VP 4 within the first couple days and spent a total of 12 days on it. Again, passing the KO before the VP and spending most of my time mastering VP 4.

When I passed VP 4 I ordered the Bach Chorales from amazon.com - https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0793525748/qid=1087251510/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/103-6563068-7531849?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 (about $10) and worked on VP 4 and started KO 5 while I was waiting for the shipment.

Now I've been working on VP/KO 5 for 5 days for an average of an hour and a half a day. I can tell this step is going to take MUCH MUCH longer than any of the previous steps though. With a good hour and a half a day (usually 3 30 minute sessions or so) hopefully my progress should move quickly. As for VP/KO 1-4 I spent about 20-30 mins a day on KO's and about an hour to an hour and a half on the VP's separating them throughout the day.

The interesting thing is that I got into the habit of timing myself on the VP drills and recording it all in excel - you can really see the PPI going into work this way and you know just how much progress you're making. My times would leap about 20 seconds of improvement on a good day. I always made sure not to rush myself even when timing and I threw in some of the 4 times variation that he talks about once or twice a day.

I'm already seeing improvement but I've got a looong way to go with these chorals. Good luck with the book

[drooxy]

In KO #1 recommendations, I read: "Use arm weight instead of fingers muscles...". Could someone tell me what that means exactly in terms of motion to apply in the context of that exercise ?

Thanks !

Drooxy

[goalevan]

I was a little bit confused with KO 1 at first but after a little experimenting I figured out exactly what he means.

This movement has been really important for me, for getting the feel of they keyboard and exactly where my hand is when it touches down the keys while I'm not looking. It's hard to explain the exact movement but I'll try.

Ok you put your hands out fingers 1 and 2 on C# and D# hands together one octave apart without looking. Then when you feel that you're on these notes, pull your hands a little bit back and raise your wrist slightly, your fingers should bend and as he says, the last joint should be about verticle. With this movement your momentum should be going a little bit upward, so let gravity and your arm weight carry downward while you stiffening your fingers slightly. This is as opposed to using only your fingers to depress the keys, rather then stiffening your fingers and letting your arm weight do the work.  Then smoothly feel for the set of 3 blacks - F# G# and A# with fingers 2,3,4 with both hands parallel again and repeat. You should feel totally relaxed and feel the keys with as much skin surface as possible to sensitize more then just the fingertip.

The way I see this is very similar to Chang's gravity drop example but on a lesser scale. Hope this helps.

[drooxy]

Thank you Goelevan,

Your description is real clear and  believe I get the motion now.

I also had a look at the KO #2... the biggest problem for me is descending, left hand, from F#G#A# to E... That implies stretching the thumb very far (which is not easy to do "hand relaxed" and cause a pain in the thumb join... which might be normal ?) ! I try to keep my hand quiet (avoiding to pop my wrist up/down/left/right as recommended). Now, if this is a bit difficult, it obvisously is going to improve scales and arpeggios playing.

Thanks again !
Drooxy

[goalevan]

I agree - I found KO  uncomfortable at first but after a few days they were connecting and feeling better. If it's actually hurting your hands try to keep finding new movements with your arm, wrist and hand, it shouldn't be so uncomfortable that it HURTS, but it's definately a strange movement to keep left hand finger 2 on A# and the thumb stretch all the way under to E.

[drooxy]

it's definately a strange movement to keep left hand finger 2 on A# and the thumb stretch all the way under to E

It seems easier to me to play E with the thumb's nail, the thumb being in a "reversed" position when landing on E... but I am not sure this is an acceptable solution... (in fact I realize that I have always avoided to do that when playing scales & arpeggios... but with no clearly identified reasons...)

 :-/

Exatly the same situation with right hand, when playing ascending F#G#A# followed by thumb on C, though.

Drooxy

[goalevan]

I guess thats ok because this is a drill to enhance your relative touch.. and get you used to those particular intervals for the next KO which is just C# and B Major scales, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. You could also try letting your 2nd finger slide off the black key a little bit and raising your wrist to make rotation a little easier. Works a little better for me but might not for you, I don't know

[bernhard]

Where do you come up with all your ideas and teaching methods?

- Saturn

First there are the obvious places like books, videos, other teachers, the internet, master classes, etc.

But the most important source are my own students. I firmly believe in having clear goals, and if you are not getting your goal, change your behaviour. This means that if I try to teach a student, say, sight reading, and I am not succeeding, I will try something else. Once something succeeds I have another tool at my disposal.

The only limitations here are your desire to try something new (and many times outrageous and completely against what everyone else is doing), and your repertory of different behaviours to try. A teacher should be very careful in not limiting him/herself unnecessarily.

But how does one go about it? Here is what I usually do. I must understand at the deepest level why the student cannot do what I am requesting. This means being able to do what the student does. If a student cannot sight read music as well as I do, we are doing something different. It is no good telling the student what to do. Rather, I must discover what internal strategy the student is using that results in such a poor result. In other words, I must become as bad as this student is. Once I can do this (and since I can also do the task), I can compare my strategy with the student, and then I know exactly how and where to interfere. This is really more like therapy than piano teaching, he he.

Finally I love challenges. The students I learned the most from were the ones everyone thought they were hopeless. And many of them were hopeless, and I could do little for them. But they did a lot for me, since by attempting to teach them, I learned a lot about my own way of doing things and their way.

In fact my own practice and learning strategies improved considerably over the years by teaching these hopeless cases. So contrary to some teachers who will only take motivated and talented students. I always look forward to a few (not too many though) unmotivated, lazy untalented ones. If you can make them play the piano, you can make anyone play the piano. And if you cannot, you will have learned a whole new lot of learning strategies.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[drooxy]

Hi again,

I think that considering the two staves as a set of 11 lines is absolutely great ! I am working on that right now, with Richmann's book as a support, and I think I am greatly improving my reading skill.

I have not started the "Read-&-Play connection"yet because I would like to be as fluent as possible in the "Read" process first...

Now, testing my reading ability on a piece that has flats in the key signature, I wonder how you read the altered notes...

For instance, if there is one flat in the key signature (Bb), when you see B's in the piece, do you say "B" - relying on your fingers - and their "knowledge" of scales - to hit Bb key instead of B - or do you say "B flat" to be more explicit ?

Thanks !

Drooxy

PS: I did not read any strong argument against Bernhard's method consisting in considering the two staves as a single one made of 11 lines (just some comments stating that the efficiency of a method also depends on individuals...). Now, I have no experience of teaching to children (no experience of teaching music at all !!!) but I see no reason to start reading independantly something you will, eventually, have to read simultaneously... Just a thought from an adult who learns more on that forum than he did during 5 years of piano lessons in his youth...      

[xvimbi]

I think that considering the two staves as a set of 11 lines is absolutely great !

What seems to have gone unnoticed in this discussion is the fact that the 11 line staff was the orignal version of the staff that is used for piano music  today. Prior to that, there were even other forms of staffs (e.g., with only four lines). A few hundred years ago, somebody decided to separate the 11-line staff into two staffs by eliminating the central line, connecting the two staffs with a brace and calling it the "grand staff". That way, one could squeeze more notes in between the staffs (on ledger lines), which makes analyzing and printing scores easier (but not necessarily reading scores).
It's been pointed out that the C's make good reference points. One thing to add is that, not only are there C's between lines 3 and 4 in trebble and bass clefs (counting from middle C as line 0), but also on the second ledger line above the trebble clef and below the bass clef. Those anchor points should get anyone through most music.

[bernhard]

What seems to have gone unnoticed in this discussion is the fact that the 11 line staff was the orignal version of the staff that is used for piano music  today. Prior to that, there were even other forms of staffs (e.g., with only four lines). A few hundred years ago, somebody decided to separate the 11-line staff into two staffs by eliminating the central line, connecting the two staffs with a brace and calling it the "grand staff". That way, one could squeeze more notes in between the staffs (on ledger lines), which makes analyzing and printing scores easier (but not necessarily reading scores).
It's been pointed out that the C's make good reference points. One thing to add is that, not only are there C's between lines 3 and 4 in trebble and bass clefs (counting from middle C as line 0), but also on the second ledger line above the trebble clef and below the bass clef. Those anchor points should get anyone through most music.

Absolutely.

And by the way, Chopin used to teach the 11 line staff to his students.

[bernhard]

Hi again,

I think that considering the two staves as a set of 11 lines is absolutely great ! I am working on that right now, with Richmann's book as a support, and I think I am greatly improving my reading skill.

I have not started the "Read-&-Play connection"yet because I would like to be as fluent as possible in the "Read" process first...

Now, testing my reading ability on a piece that has flats in the key signature, I wonder how you read the altered notes...

For instance, if there is one flat in the key signature (Bb), when you see B's in the piece, do you say "B" - relying on your fingers - and their "knowledge" of scales - to hit Bb key instead of B - or do you say "B flat" to be more explicit ?

Thanks !

Drooxy

PS: I did not read any strong argument against Bernhard's method consisting in considering the two staves as a single one made of 11 lines (just some comments stating that the efficiency of a method also depends on individuals...). Now, I have no experience of teaching to children (no experience of teaching music at all !!!) but I see no reason to start reading independantly something you will, eventually, have to read simultaneously... Just a thought from an adult who learns more on that forum than he did during 5 years of piano lessons in his youth...      

It depends on how thorough is your knowledge of scales.

A lot of students can play scales perfectly at speed, and yet they are completely at a loss if ask them “What is the dominant of Ab major?”. Their knowledge in restricted to the mechanics of it. They do not understand the concept of key, or indeed why scales are so important.

Nowadays I start teaching scales form the very first lesson. I do not worry about fingering or the actual mechanics of playing them efficiently. This can come later. What is important to me (they play all scales with one finger only to start with) is that a student knows which notes make up the scale. This is far from trivial.

Let me give an example. If you only play on the black keys, no matter what you play it always sounds good (and since it is a pentatonic scale, it will have a Chinese feel to it). It is also very easy, since all you have to do is to avoid the white keys.

Now, there is no reason why one should not be able to pull the same stunt by playing only on the white keys. Simply avoid the F and the B and you have a pentatonic scale on the white keys.

However if you try that you will find out that it is actually surprisingly difficult to avoid hitting the F and the B. You must somehow “delete” those keys from the keyboard in your mind. With the black keys it is easy to ignore the white keys and delete them in your mind. But with the white keys it demands a lot of concentrated work.

When working on a scale a similar problem appears. Out of the 12 keys in the keyboard (within an octave), you must somehow delete five, so that you are left only with the scale notes. If it was difficult trying to delete two notes, it is exponentially more difficult to delete five. So it is very important not to practise scales mechanically, but to concentrate completely in seeing in your mind’s eye only the notes that comprise the scale. If this is done systematically form the very beginning, it will save years of frustration later on.

So back to your question. Since I have trained myself thoroughly in the above, when faced with a frightening key signature (or any key signature, actually), I simply “see” only the notes that belong to the scale. If the key is F major, whenever I see a B in the score, I will “see” a Bb, simply because for me natural B is not part of the F major scale. It does not exist. Most of my students find the most difficult scales to see in this way to be Ab and Eb, so usually you need extra work on those.

Of course if you have not yet developed this ability, then you will have to remember to flat all Bs that come your way in a piece written in F major.

Finally, both me and my students make a point of always working on the scale(s) of a piece (the key of the piece) before tackling it at the piano. This should become a strong habit.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[drooxy]

Bernhard,

Your answer - very appreciated once again - calls another question:

Since I have trained myself thoroughly in the above...

Is playing scales and arpeggios attentively the only way to train oneself to distinguish between "authorized" and "forbidden" notes within a given key or is there other exercices/tricks that can help ?

Thanks thousand times again !

Drooxy

[bernhard]

Bernhard,

Your answer - very appreciated once again - calls another question:


Is playing scales and arpeggios attentively the only way to train oneself to distinguish between "authorized" and "forbidden" notes within a given key or is there other exercices/tricks that can help ?

Thanks thousand times again !

Drooxy

I am sure that there are all sorts of tricks out there. But basically if you set out to practise scales with this particular aim in mind, then it just happens.

This is an interesting point: aim. It is perfectly possible to practise scales for years without any specific aim in mind. The result may be a flawless execution, but also a lack of meaning on why exactly am I doing this.

There are of course many different aims when practising scales. You may concentrate solely on acquiring the necessary dexterity and technique to play a scale evenly, fast and generally flawlessly. Or you may aim at “knowing the scale” in the sense I described above. Both aims may be pursued quite independently. You may come to know a scale quite well and yet not be able to play it at all. Conversely you could play it superbly and yet have no idea of the hierarchy of degrees within a scale or how scales relate to the music you are playing.

Ideally one should have as many different aims and as many different ways of approaching a scale (or any other subject for that matter) as one can think of.

In any case, just having an aim is possibly the most powerful practice trick ever!

Usually what I do (and make my students do), is to practise the scale of the key of the piece they are working on. Then we work through all the triads in that scale (major – minor – minor – major – major – minor – diminished). We then do a harmonic reduction of the piece so that we can identify all the seven triads. In simple pieces that stay within one key (which is the kind of piece you should start with) this is relatively simple: The melody will be the scale with the notes in a different order, and the accompaniment will always consists of the seven basic triads (often not all of them are used). We also are on the lookout for the way the melody moves through the several degrees of the scale and we try to explain the music through such movement. Of course music can be more complex than that, but if you consistently take this approach, soon the notion of key and forbidden notes become second nature. In the beginning it is a slow, laborious process, but as it always happens with anything that is systematically repeated, soon it becomes subconscious.

The other good trick is to improvise only using the scale you are working on. This forces you to be extra attentive in not using the notes that do not belong to the scale.

Finally you can try transposing. But for the purposes of the exercise, you must try not to transpose by ear or by interval (I’m not saying that you should not do this, I am saying that you should not do this for the purposes of this exercise), but rather by recognising the degree of the present scale and transposing it to the corresponding degree on the new scale (this means knowing straight away who is the dominant, who is the tonic, etc.).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[drooxy]

Thank you, Bernhard.

Drooxy

[bernhard]

You are welcome.

[goalevan]

FYI I just finished going from start to finish, all 371 Bach Chorals for VP 5, took me almost a month to get through them. So that averages out to about 371/30 = ~12 chorals a day. Not too bad ! Time to start back at 1 again

[drooxy]

I just received the book today... !

Drooxy

[drooxy]

Just for information about Richmann KO exercises:

I find very interesting to sit in front of the central D - as the author suggests - and to spend some time doing the following simple exercise:

. keep my eyes closed
. put my two hands on my laps
. go - one hand at a time or hands together - touch the
 first three keys on the left and on the right of the
 central D with LH-432/RH-234 (and, once that position
 is found, play F-Gb-Ab-Bb-B, LH-54321/RH-12345)
. get my hands back to my laps, and go get the 2 black
 keys on the left/right of the previous 3 black key blocks
 with LH-43/RH-23 (and, once that position is found,
 play C-Db-Eb-E, LH-5432/RH-1234)
. put my hand(s) back on my lap(s)
. etc.

... trying to keep in mind, at all time a visual
 representation in of the keys I am playing as well as
 naming them...  

This is simple to explain but not necessary so obvious to do... at least for me ! I thought it could be something interesting to share !

Oh, by the way, if you try, don't forget to re-open your eyes when you are done !  

Cheers,
Drooxy

[goalevan]

yeah I spent a lot of time associating the keyboard in my mind while i had my eyes closed or looked away from my hands. I bet you're seeing an improvement, I did almost immediately. now after going through more of them I can find the right area of the keyboard almost every time. And now that I'm doing the VP 5 I'm gettin alot better at intervals.

[drooxy]

I Started the KO2 and the VP2... I can do the latter very regulary but... very slow ! I am far from 1 note per second !!

:-/

I'll try to improve that during the next days/weeks !

Cheers and thank you for your support !  

Drooxy

[goalevan]

For me it was reeealy slow at first but after I got the hang of it, I kept improving rather quickly. Good luck with that

[drooxy]

Very interesting experience in all cases... This morning, I had the problem of getting lost when my eyes left the keyboard and got back to the music sheet... (might be due to my speed that gets better !).

So, I followed Richmann's instructions: memorize the place of the note to be played on the stave and come back to it first (after it has been played) and then only, locate the next one... !

It made miracles !  

You really need to be concentrated though !  

Cheers !
Drooxy

[kembleguy]

I'm very interested in an update of both Goalevan and Drooxy their  experiences with Richmans method half a year later...

 

[goalevan]

Personally I think this book helped me a TON, coming into it with about 5 or 6 months of playing the piano, it was a really good way to get myself familiar with reading music and feeling my way around the keyboard. I can't tell you how much help the keyboard orientation drills have been to me in every piece I've played since I started using Richman. And my reading improved drastically too. I could imagine this book would help more experienced pianists that are trying to brush up their reading skills as well, but I can't be sure.

So in short - this is probably one of the methods that has helped me most since I started playing the piano.

[drooxy]

To be honest it has been a couple of months since I opened it for the last time...

Not because it is not worth it but just because I had to shorten a little the time I spend on the piano every morning ! 

This last couple of days I decided to get back to some sightreading exercices, though. There are some interesting ones (classified by difficulty order) on www.practicespot.com and I took a stab at them. Useless to tell you that I choose among the very easy ones ! 

Doing that, I realize that what I learnt in Richman's book helps me and I am sure it would even be better if I could get back to it on a more regular basis. That might be a good decision for 2005 !

Now, I also read somewhere recently: "if you want to learn to sightread... just sightread !". 

So why not to combine Richman's book and www.practicespot.com if you have some time at the piano ?

Very happy new year !

 

Cheers,
Drooxy