Relation student-teacher...

[alessandro]

Dear Forumeers,
I'm glad that after four years studying on my own I finally made the choice to take lessons.  So, I have been last Tuesday for my second weekly appointment with the teacher in our local music-academy.  The reason why I'm posting is that there are two rather distinct thoughts that have arisen since I'm taking lessons.  First of all I would like to make clear that I'm in no sense whatsoever disappointed that I finally took the step to getting those lessons.  It has till now been very interesting, and yes, even exciting.  The teacher gives the impression to really understand what I'm looking for and what my problems are.  But I'm thinking at something and I was wondering if somebody also feels the same way about it.  I would like to have as a starting point the Chopin Nocturne Posthume Opus 72 N° 1, since that is the piece that we are currently and mainly working on.  In the edition that I have, Henle Verlag, we can notice in bar 7 the note "dim." for I presume 'diminuendo'.  The teacher says "I do not agree with that diminuendo".  She even gave the impression that she rather tends to think the contrary.  Now, I tend to agree with that 'diminuendo'.  I do that not as opposed to 'crescendo', but more as retaining, holding a little the intensity that already is created within only this 7 bars.  More like "don't lose yourself in the increasing intensity, hold back a little the burst of energy, keep it for the next bar(s), dim. like well... "dim it a little".  I didn't say all this to the teacher.  And I thought, isn't it so that the relation with your teacher is one of giving and taking.  That the student not necessarily always agrees with his teacher, but that he has to try to take out what is important for him and what not.  My teacher for example teached me already in two lessons very interesting things, but this little 'diminuendo'-thing, I did not agree.   So, I have now this 'forgive-your-teacher'-attitude, I say to myself 'you will over time probably find more little this-and-thats, little clashes of ideas, but you will also get more knowledge, nobody's perfect etcetera."   And then I was thinking about professional pianists that still take lessons, going to the other side of the globe to follow classes with some renowned teacher who on his turn advises after a few years to travel further to another teacher to refine for example Chopin or other specialties.   Isn't it so that you can find in every teacher little things that you totally don't agree with, but that it is not a reason to give up positive feelings towards that teacher.   Or should I really be looking for a person that I admire all the way, totally, would that be the more ideal teacher, or is that just an ideal, something that doesn't exist.
I'm very happy with this teacher, now, but sometimes I'm just thinking too much perhaps...
She already said herself that she knows a very good teacher for me, a teacher that would match very nicely with my personality and my goals, one that can be very suitable for me...  "You can have lessons with me as long as you want" she said "a year, two years, really as long as you want, but you really should once meet the other teacher..." That's what I understood.
I think, now I'm writing this, that that's probably exactly the scenario as she has it in mind.  "I keep this guy a few months, but I think he will be better of with my fellow-teacher..."
Kindly.
Patrick
   

[m19834]

And I thought, isn't it so that the relation with your teacher is one of giving and taking.  That the student not necessarily always agrees with his teacher, but that he has to try to take out what is important for him and what not.  My teacher for example teached me already in two lessons very interesting things, but this little 'diminuendo'-thing, I did not agree.   So, I have now this 'forgive-your-teacher'-attitude, I say to myself 'you will over time probably find more little this-and-thats, little clashes of ideas, but you will also get more knowledge, nobody's perfect etcetera."

Is it so that a relation with teacher/student is one of giving and taking ?  Well, whatever that is actually supposed to mean, I guess my answer is that it very much depends !  I had one teacher who told me and believed firmly that "once we step in there, it is not a democracy" when referring to our lessons inside his studio.  Whatever my own thoughts are/were in that specific case may be different than how I might feel with my mentor now.  And, maybe I would feel differently now simply because now is 9 years later than when that other teacher told me that, or maybe it's because I feel that my rapport with my current mentor is much, much different than that of my rapport with the one who told me that (and my teacher now is just a much different person than my teacher then), or maybe I have just changed/matured in those 9 years ? 

I think that there are different levels of disagreement between individuals, and depending on what "level" that/those disagreement(s) is/are, determines how the study goes or continues.  At times in the past, it has been "interesting" (not from a dramatic point of view but from MANY other points) to me to try to work with teachers with whom I may disagree either minorly or intensely.  It is certainly not what I have believed I have been "looking for" though, and there have been sometimes when I went to a teacher to interview with them, and despite their willingness to work with me, I just never went back.

In some ways, the idea on whether or not to agree with a dimuendo in the score, and then with a teacher regarding it, is actually representative of a HUGE subject that goes way beyond immediate teacher/student relations.  However, that subject is somehow a kind of distraction, I think, from the essence of the craft.  In some sense, the craft is not truly about whether or not you play what is on the score or whether or not you agree with everything an individual says regarding it.  I think the craft is more along the lines of developing the ability to play in whatever way is required by the moment, and that has more to do with the instrument and the individual than a marking on a page.  In that sense, it gets down to what kinds of fundamental tools the individual has, and how a teacher is helping the student to develop and use those tools -- which is also a seemingly vast issue to take up.    

ha ha ... that last paragraph just led me to thinking now in a whole huge way and now I am going to have to leave and think a bit and then perhaps come back to you !!!

[db05]

She may think this other teacher is better suited for you, or maybe you just need a different perspective. Either way, take it as a good thing, that you are a good student and she means well, otherwise she'd quit on you! Think positive. 

One thing is that even though this other teacher might more your type, and better suited at this time, it might not be the case, say, in a few years. Things may change. Although I've also heard of students doing very well with one teacher (sometimes even the first one, how lucky is that?), my case was one of being passed to other teachers until I got tired of the changes.

What I think is more on that your teacher thinks you will benefit from another's perspective, and not necessarily have to leave one teacher for the other. Think of it as a sort of "master class".

[jgallag]

I know this sounds hard, but you really need to admire and trust your teacher to get the most out of him/her. Now, this isn't exactly easy for everyone. It happens to be in my case, but I have my teacher's recordings of Schumann's Kinderscenen and Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, I've seen her play the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 6, and just at my lesson today I watched her rattle off scales and Chopin Etudes as if they were as easy as walking. But my reasoning is this: Will you truly take to heart the advice and teachings of someone you do not respect and admire? How can you gain from someone else's knowledge if you do not take and use it?

But this is just my opinion.

By the way, my teacher did mention to me today that the Paderewski Editions are desirable for Chopin, not Henle. Perhaps the discrepancy can be cleared up there? Otherwise, I'd say eat your vegetables. This won't be the only teacher you'll have, and you'll get plenty of different opinions. For the pieces you're studying with your teacher, do what you're told. For the pieces you study on your own, take your freedom. That's the life of a student, is it not?

[maisymouse]

i guess it's natural that you should have a different opinion on how to play a piece, for everyone has their own way of expressing themselves. but on the whole, maybe you should listen to your teacher. if you really think that you feel it seems more 'right' playing it your way, play it in your teacher's way only when you're having lessons. or if your teacher is more understanding, just trying telling him/her how you feel.

[birba]

Relation student-teacher...I think there are two types of relationships.  The "guru-hero" type that is very important, I think, at a certain age in a student's quest.  A relationship that can and usually goes on for a long time, and may never end.  Where YOU become the "desciple".  If it's a healthy relationship, it can be very beautiful.  Then there are the master classes, the occasional lessons, where you get as much as the teacher has to offer.  In this relationship, you are ONLY interested in hearing and learning what that particular artist wants.  It doesn't matter what YOU want, because you've paid to hear HIS opinion.  When you've separated and gone your own way, you take in your suitcase the experiences this teacher has offered you.  If you can use them, use them.  If not, discard them.  In the first type relationship, it's important that the teacher knows how YOU feel about that diminuendo.  Because this teaching has a different aspect to it.  In effect, he's not teaching just about that diminuendo.  He's forming your vocation and actually "bringing you up" as if you were his child.  I have VERY deep feelings about that first teacher I had.  She's long gone now, but her influence and effect on me are still a vital part of my music. 
SO, in your case, I intuit that this teacher is NOT that particular person in your life and therefore, you should just listen to what she says and don't hang around too long if you don't feel you aren't getting what you've paid for.