Crazy Transposition Question

[m19834]

If the original melody is in D Major, and the transposed instrument is a made up contra-alto instrument in Bbb (double flat), what key is the transposed istrument written in ?

I wonder, can you treat an instrument that is Bbb as an A instrument, and the transposed key would be F (is there any reason I couldn't do that ?) ?

A transposed instrument in the key of A is notated a minor third above concert-pitch and you would move three places to the left in the circle of fifths from the concert-pitch key to find the notated key.  So, if you were to transpose the concert-pitch melody from D Major, and notate it for an instrument in A, you would notate the transposed score in the key of F.

A Bb instrument is notated a whole step above concert pitch (or the sounding pitch), and you can find the transposed key signature by moving two places to the right in the circle of 5ths from wherever the concert key is written.  So, for a Bb instrument, notation for a concert-pitch melody written in D Major would be in E Major.

One last question :  Does "contra" always refer to the sounding pitch being in some kind of octave transposition ?  The transposed key for the Bbb instrument is supposed to be written in alto clef, which makes me think it should be written in a way that fits into the staff comfortably.

Anyway, your thoughts are appreciated .  Thanks in advance !

[quantum]

Are you sure that is a B double flat?  It might be Bb plus and octave lower.  Does it appear "BBb" instead of "Bbb"?

[m19834]

YAY !  Somebody !!!

Yes, for sure it's B double flat !  I just haven't been sure what tendency it would have ... instruments in A go the opposite direction in transposition with the circle of fifths than do instruments in Bb.

[m19834]

Okay, a Bb instrument would be two places to the right in the circle of fifths from the key of D Major (the original key of the melody).  That would be the key of E Major.  IF I were to do a double of that, since it's B double flat, does that mean I would go around again and end up on some kind of double sharp key ... or what ?  That's where I get lost.  And, if that were the case, would it wind up being the same key enharmonically as you would find if you treat a Bbb instrument like an A instrument ?

If it were an A instrument, the key signature would be three to the left in the circle of fifths from D Major, arriving at F Major.  Enharmonically, that would be ... Gbb or E sharp ?

[pianowolfi]

logically it would be E sharp major, since the transposing interval is an augmented second. Hmmm *tries to imagine made up instrument*

[m19834]

Unfortunately my brain can't quite follow the logic without the steps written out  .  How did you get there ?

[pianowolfi]

I thought Bbb is an augmented second below c. So if a player of this instrument plays a written c on it it sounds Bbb. If the player plays a written E sharp it sounds D because it's an augmented second below.

[m19834]

Oh  .  Yes, that makes perfect sense to me now.  For some reason my mind could only try to figure the key signature out first, by using the circle of fifths deal.   Normally I would do that and then transpose the melody by interval, so I just couldn't get past the key signature thing to let myself think about the interval ... ha ha.

[pianowolfi]

Glad it helped I often confuse transposing instruments But now, I'm still curious about what instrument you've got there

[m19834]

Well, it's an invented instrument, which I didn't invent, btw, whose name is a benkrugaphone ... technically the krug should have an "e" between the u and the g

[keypeg]

I found a discussion on a Bbb instrument (tuba) 

It appears that it is treated enharmonically.  Bbb enh. is A.  Aug 2nd enh. is minor 3.  There is no such signature as E#, but enharmonically = F = minor third (from D).

I just found this discussion (tuba = a Bbb instrument)

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?p=1069770

This guy is transposing the opposite direction, because he is playing music written in concert pitch.  They're going up a major 6; inverse is minor 3.

Karli, I'm not familiar with the circle of fifth method.  I learned to go by the interval difference between the transposed instrument and concert C.  Is there a link to learn about the Cof5 method?  It's always good to know more than one way.

KP

[pianowolfi]

Well, it's an invented instrument, which I didn't invent, btw, whose name is a benkrugaphone ... technically the krug should have an "e" between the u and the g

Ah I see, that sounds cool. Hope we can hear a sound sample here some day

[m19834]

Karli, I'm not familiar with the circle of fifth method.  I learned to go by the interval difference between the transposed instrument and concert C.  Is there a link to learn about the Cof5 method?  It's always good to know more than one way.

KP

KP, thanks for the link !  I will check that out .

Take note of the respective, generic intervals that the following instruments transpose by :

Bb instruments : notated key is M2 above concert-pitch key.
Eb instruments : notated key is m3 below concert-pitch key.
F instruments :  notated key is P5 above concert-pitch key.
A instruments :  notated key is m3 above concert-pitch key.

This is how the circle of fifths thing works, note the relation of spaces each instrument moves in the circle of 5ths to the generic intervals above :

Bb instruments :  Move 2 places to the R in circle of 5ths (from concert key sig.)
Eb instruments :  Move 3 places to the R
F instruments :    Move a Perfect 5th to the R (1 space)
A instruments :   Move 3 places to the L

[keypeg]

Thanks for the explanation, Karli.  Does this mean that you memorized the circle of fifths, so that you have a kind of C of 5 in your head, and then you mentally move along it? 

[m19834]

Yes, sure !   But, I mesmerized that a long time ago, not just for the transposition stuff.

[keypeg]

Well, I have it memorized too, though not in a circular picture - I just know what comes next.  I'm used to intervals so it would seem faster to me because that's what I've done.

I was testing it out: Bb instrument = M2 below C.  So supposing I have a signature in E major (concert C).  I tried it both methods:

Circle of fifths => move 2 in "circle".  So E major (4 sharps), B major (5 sharps), F# major 6 sharps.  I've moved 2.  My key signature is F# major. 

Intervals.  a major 2 up from E is F#.  My key signature is F# major.  That's instant for me.

I wonder if either method has different advantages.  It's really interesting know that there are two ways of doing it.

KP

[m19834]

Well, I was part of a course these last couple of terms where each person was required to be able to do it by interval as well as key signature, and the circle of fifths was an option in finding the key sig.  I *really* like the circle of fifths in general, I think about it as much as possible ... hee hee.  Anyway, I am not sure what the advantages would be for each way, I guess I would have to think about that a bit.

[keypeg]

You know what?  I'm going to spend some time transposing the circle of fifths way.  That way it will sort of penetrate my being and I will find out what it gives me.  Some of the things are understood by experiencing them rather than thinking about them so I will try it that way.  If I come up with something, I'll post it. 

KP

[m19834]

Yeah, yeah, I used the forbidden word "think" ...  .

Anyway, whatever you end up doing, sure, if you get something out of it, post about it !

[keypeg]

Hey, you're a teacher, so you're allowed to think.    I'm more in the beginning stages so I have to "do" more so that my fingers can catch up to my brain.  Isn't that how it goes for us students?  It was lectured into me by certain entitites.  What's your take on that?  It almost seems as if I pushed a button. 

 I was surprised you took it negatively.  I was stating that I'm ready to try something new instead of sticking blindly to what I know exclusively.

Anyway, I'd like to know what you come up with.

KP