Is EVERYTHING reflected in sound ?

[m19834]

I was sitting at the piano playing some patterns in a particular key, concentrating on some particular things, but yes, my mind was pondering other musical things as well (naughty, naughty, I know).  I was thinking about this whole thing about the circle of fifths, for example, and about my desire to know certain things, especially certain fundamental things about music VERY well.  I want to know particular elements of music like they are the very essence of not just the thoughts in my head, but as though it's my breath of life.

That might seem silly, but I heard my voice say inside of my head that I want to know these things because I want it to SOUND like I am comfortable with these things in that way.  That was a bit of an epiphany, actually.  I have always thought of some of the fundamental things involved in music theory as either solely intellectual, or as only partially audible.  But, it dawned on me that perhaps (and maybe *probably*) everything we know, whatever the extent of our comfort is with the fundamentals of music and of playing, can actually be fully heard in our playing (probably this also involves the right set of ears, too !), as though that is almost inescapable. 

But, do you think that's true ?  Can a person's level of understanding of something like the circle of fifths be heard when they are actually playing something like a Beethoven sonata in a performance, for example ?

And then, do you suppose that *EVERYTHING* about who we are can actually be heard ?  I know people say that, or at least hint at it ... but, is it true in a super tangible way, actually ?

Who hears that kind of stuff in others ?

Maybe I am posting too much or so, but you could consider me perhaps a bit inspired .

[term]

You would have to introduce something like the subconscious to substantiate it. But i think it's true. Take a bach fugue, for instance, an unexperienced listener doesn't consciously hear all the inversions, subject entries, basically all the patterns, the number relationships between segments of a fugue (when there are), and the order that permeates the whole music and which is subject to detailed analysis - but it's there, and it constitutes to the whole of the fugue and the impression that reaches you. What you would call intellectual, or theory, are merely words to describe relationships that are present in the music. They do matter. Ultimately the basis for our music is the logarithmic overtone scale, and randomly i would claim that this scale is so fundamental that most music in some way revolves around the relationships inherent in this scale. I'm pretty sure that's at least in some way true, but a detailed analysis is very difficult.

As to how much you can percieve, i think pretty much anything. Frequent listening to the same pieces will reveal to you patterns and structures you never heard before. Sure you can hear the circle of fifths if you're lucky or if you know about it and then try to hear it. Sometimes a passage will appear to you in a way that you clearly hear the core notes on which all the others are based, sometimes you hear 'more'.

[m19834]

Sure you can hear the circle of fifths if you're lucky or if you know about it and then try to hear it.

I appreciate your whole post, but I am just jumping here from the bench and then jumping right back and had to just say that what I am wondering, is if a listener can not necessarily hear the circle of fifths itself in the piece that is being played.  But, can the listener hear the performer's level of understanding regarding a musical concept like that, as a part of the performer's being, so to speak ? 

I mean, I don't know that a person's level of understanding or comfort regarding an concept like that would have its own exact sound, but does a person's, say, uttmost comfort with the circle of fifths, does the level of comfort itself, somehow create a kind of ripple affect in the person's being so as to somehow become audible in an artistic "final" event ?  I don't know if that makes sense or not.

But, I am just wondering how much individual parts of knowledge or how much blending of parts of knowledge, effect the final sound ? 

I would think that something like the level of peace a person has about life can somehow be felt or heard or is SOMEHOW audible in some way ... kind of like DEEP silence.

[keypeg]

I don't know if this addresses your question.  Often when I listen to this kind of music, I am hearing a succession of chords, and no understanding of what is underneath.  Here, in this playing, an "understanding" emanates from the playing (to my ear)
https://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=16054222  I don't suppose this is what you mean.

[term]

But, can the listener hear the performer's level of understanding regarding a musical concept like that, as a part of the performer's being, so to speak ? 

Well i'd say yes, the listener can hear the understanding of musical concepts in the interpreters mind. But if you're talking about the circle of fifths, what you're talking about is the whole concept of 12 tones, scales, chords, the relationships in harmonic progressions, 'tension' by departing from the tonic etc. That's the basis for all kinds of gestures and melodies, they rely on that. So the understanding is given to anybody who can appreciate and play that music.

[m19834]

Yes, okay !  I get it !  This is actually a mind-blowing thought I am having now for a moment ... ha ha ...

In a sense, you could say that every thought that we have about music DOES have a precise sound.  Whatever is our understanding of something like the circle of fifths, for example, would be reflected in sound.  That being said, if we do not have a clear harmonic understanding, that should be heard as well, to some extent, as I guess these things effect interpretation.

Ultimately the basis for our music is the logarithmic overtone scale, and randomly i would claim that this scale is so fundamental that most music in some way revolves around the relationships inherent in this scale.

So, if there were some kind of centre or so that we basically related all music to, or where it came from, or in some way could be linked to or traced back to, well, perhaps there's something similar with everything about who we are.  Even on a kind of superficial level, if a musician thinks constantly in the language of music, and walks through life associating everything to music, then every experience we ever had could theoretically have a distinct sound (depending on the moment and context, of course). 

Argh !  I don't know !  I will go to the piano again now .  Thanks !

[keypeg]

U

[quasimodo]

what are you guys talking about ?

[electrodoc]

Karli
Your post aroused my interest so I have quickly outlined my response.

 Let us start with the observation that everything in the universe vibrates: atoms, sub-atomic particles, molecules, etc. Our own body vibrates, ranging from circadian rhythms to the vibration of our DNA molecules.

Music is vibration. There are set mathematical ratios between the different intervals of the scale. If we consider a vibrating string the strong vibrates at the whole length of the string (the fundamental); at the half length (the octave), at the third length (the fifth), and so forth. After the octave the fifth is the most prominent harmonic. Thus, the cycle of fifths is following a mathematic progression and this mathematic progression is echoing states within our body, mind, and spirit.

Although I am not particularly religious I note the opening words of the Gospel according to St John "In the beginning was the word and the word was God." If we translate "word" as "vibration" then this quotation seems to make more sense. In our own body there are many, many vibration going on at the same time. Some of these are in harmony with each other, and some conflict. Could it be that when most of the body vibrations are in harmony that we feel healthy, happy, and content and when there is a lot of conflicting vibrations (disharmony) then we feel angry, frustrated and generally negative?

The notion of vibration is so fundamental that we use it without thinking: "S/he has good vibes."; "We are on the same wavelength". When two people are in love then it is probable that their respective energy fields are in harmony to a considerable extent with each other. (Lest any of my critics think that this is some kind of 'new age speak' please remember that energy is vibration and that all vibration is energy!)

We know that music is a very powerful tool for arousing various emotions. Military music is a good example. It is no accident that a march has a tempo of 104 - 108. This is the natural rhythm of a brisk walking pace. If music has the power to arouse or change our emotions then it reasonable to assume that our emotional state will influence how we produce music. Have you noticed that when you are calm and serene then you play more gently and with a more musical tone than when you are angry or in a bad mood? The listener does not need to be a musician in order to sense the music. S/he will be aware of tonal production, harmonic changes and general form even if s/he is unable to describe what is going on. I believe that it was the musicologist Stuart Mc Pherson that said the first level of appreciation is at the physical level - response to rhythm, and form. The second level of appreciation is at the intellectual level where we begin to understand the grammar and structure of the music, and the third level is at the spiritual plane where the first two elements come together and we are momentarily transported to a transcendental plane. As a listener I am able to appreciate your performance on the first two levels, and hopefully if you are really at one with the music, at the third level. The performer is, knowingly or unknowingly, taking on the responsibility of shifting the energy level of the listener and hopefully leaving the audience in a state where they feel moved.

In the context of the Biblical quotation given above, mathematics may be language of the universe but music is perhaps the language of the gods.

[arensky]

Amazing post electrodoc. One of the best I've read on this forum. 


Karli, when I hear a musician play I feel that I'm looking into them through their music. I can't tell how much they may have studied the circle of fifths but I can hear their emotions and personality; whether they are profound or shallow, secure or insecure, positive or negative. It's a hard thing to explain in words but I hear it and it's usually shown to be true after getting to know the person. Some peoples vibrations are in sync and some are not and this is certainly reflected in the music they play. Unorganized sounds or noise (running water, jackhammers for instance) don't seem to have this quality, they just are, although most of us would prefer the sound of liquid flow to pavement being eviscerated. Animal sounds have many different meanings and connotations, because they are produced for a purpose; attracting a mate, a warning, a cry of pain, or excitement. But if I drop a rock on the ground does it mean anything? Does it have "expression"?

*goes outside to drop rocks*

[go12_3]

There are times we may need the sounds of silence.......