Why I don't believe in Heaven or Hell

[iroveashe]

Yay, just what you wanted, another religious post, though I'll try to focus more on the moral and logical aspects of the subjects than the spiritual.

First let's make it clear than I'm not talking about an afterlife, just about a rewarded and punished afterlife according to your actions during this life. I think the idea of some people being rewarded and some punished is basically a moral equation in order to balance and comfort ourselves, because we don't think it's fair that a cute and nice child could die so young while so many criminals and corrupted people are living their lives like kings or just getting 5 years in prison to get out in 2. The problem with this is that human ethics and math equations are not even similar, mainly because maths are consistent not only through times but also through nature while moral views clearly aren't. Just take a look at laws and general thinking on gay or black people, or even women 50 years ago, not to mention things like sacrifices, punishments and the way sex or drugs were considered 3000+ years ago; and of course, morality is not consistent through nature in the least either. So how could we be rewarded/punished for eternity because of laws that are constantly changing even during our own life time?

The other thing that bugs me a lot is the question of eternity. Compared to eternity our lives, no matter how long they may be are nothing, and our minds simply cannot comprehend what an infinite time means. So I try to put it in a literally infinitely shorter way. Imagine we have the life story of a person who lived for a 100 years (let's call him John). Now let's imagine at the age of 2 some kind of deity came down from the skies and presented this child with a test: He'd give him a candy, but it'd be taken away from another child who was hungry. Even though our little John wasn't one bit hungry he just took the candy, simply because it's what any young child would do; but before he could eat the candy the deity warned him that if he did eat it he'd be condemned since he turned 3, to an entire life of misery and suffering, and than if he rejected it, letting the other child eat it, he'd be rewarded and have the greatest luck for the same time. For the sake of the story let's assume the deity spoke "baby language" and John understood the deity, yet not fully the consequences of his acts: his 2 years old mind couldn't understand what "a whole life of suffering" could mean the same way no human being's mind could comprehend what eternity means. So he eats the candy, he turns 3 and this deity comes back, and tortures John during the remaining 97 years of his life. But hey, the deity did give him a choice, it wasn't his fault, right? And then again it wasn't the babies' fault either, he was too young and inexperienced to understand what was at risk.
So, in Einstein's words:
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves.  Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts."

[pianistimo]

Am i allowed to respond?  Sometimes I am wary.  Thinking it's a set-up or something.

I don't think the bible says 'there is heaven and there is hell.'  It's a completely  Catholic construct.  And, before that - Egyptian.  Are you shocked?  Yes.  There was something called the babylonian mystery religion.  It employed a combination of ideas and thoughts all over the world at that time that had come direct from Egypt and early Babylon.  Nimrod was one of the first rulers that convinced others he was a 'god' and that he had been born of a virgin and that his mother Semiramis was a joint co-ruler with him and was a 'god' as well.  Once you convince people you are a 'god' then you start making rules that put people under your influence and protection.  I believe that he started making up some rules similar to the bible and others that were wayy different (shaving the head, tatoos, homosexual/lesbian and celibate priests/priestesses, and practiced child sacrifice).

Many of these things were never 'religious' in the sense of being required by the Creator G-d.  However, Hammurabi encoded some of these rules for people to view today as though they are the sound basis of laws.  They leave out the fact that Hammurabi could have been Nimrod himself or someone like him because he made himself out to be god and certain things that he required were 'ungodly' in actuality.  But, to appear holy - there were similarities to the bible in other laws.

OK.  So we come to the stories Nimrod told people.  That the true G-d was not worth worshipping because he would cause judgement (the words of G-d were known to him by the man Shem).  However, the manner of judgement was changed to be according to how Nimrod described it.  He wanted to be god himself - as witnessed by his tower of Babel which would reach up to the heavens. Guess who has imitated this building construct in a painting that is in the EU? and also a building?  Brughel.  Interesting, huh?!

Anyways, for the record Nimrod was influenced by Satan to change the words of G-d slightly so it would appear that G-d was unfair.  Just as he had done with Eve.  'Has G-d said that you should not eat from this tree?'  He basically would use human logic.  He felt that humans already had the innate ability to live forever already inside them.  That they had what was called an 'eternal soul.'  Many other religions beside so-called Christian ones also believe that hell is a place where you eternally suffer.  The bible never does say that, though.  It says 'the soul that sins shall die.'

In Revelations 20:6 'Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first ressurrection; over these the second death has no power....'  Second death?  Nobody really believes Jesus when he said his parables of the wheat and chaff and that the chaff would be 'burned up' - or judged and eliminated eternally by a 'lake of fire.'  It scares me as much as anyone else - although, the purpose of G-d isn't to scare people.  I mean, if you do the right thing in life and follow the basic tenents of the 10 commandments - and also ask for forgiveness when you sin - what is death?  NOTHING.  Jesus Christ gave us an example of how He expected us to live - and sacrificed himself so that all could share in his holiness and be ressurrected to eternal life.  Some just choose not to accept it.

I didn't set up the rules of the bible - but i think they are the most fair that I've ever seen.  After all, if evil ruled forever, we'd have the same mess we have today into eternity.  People would be greedy, stealing, lying, cheating - etc.  And, though nobody is perfect - G-d doesn't give anyone a reason to be lazy and just say 'i can live my life without any consequences to myself or others.'  He makes us completely responsible to others by the fact he set up laws and gave the laws to us.  Now, we say - we don't need G0d.  We'll make our own laws and decisions.  So...we can. But, it won't take away any of the consequences of our actions at a later point.  That's what I think the bible says.

[ahinton]

Am i allowed to respond?

Judging by what follows, it seems that way...

  Sometimes I am wary.

Again, judging by what follows, not on this occasion. Do you realise that your wariness of response here has prompted you to confine that response to a mere 736 words?

Best,

Alistair

[iroveashe]

Am i allowed to respond?  Sometimes I am wary.  Thinking it's a set-up or something.
I don't think the bible says 'there is heaven and there is hell.'  It's a completely  Catholic construct.

I can understand why you seem to be defensive around here, what I don't understand is why you mention the Bible (I thought it was meant to be written with a capital B?) as if I had said anything about it or about any religion in particular for that matter.

Nobody really believes Jesus when he said his parables of the wheat and chaff and that the chaff would be 'burned up' - or judged and eliminated eternally by a 'lake of fire.'  It scares me as much as anyone else - although, the purpose of G-d isn't to scare people.  I mean, if you do the right thing in life and follow the basic tenents of the 10 commandments - and also ask for forgiveness when you sin - what is death?  NOTHING.  Jesus Christ gave us an example of how He expected us to live - and sacrificed himself so that all could share in his holiness and be ressurrected to eternal life.  Some just choose not to accept it.

There's a big IF there which bothers me, it's basically "follow my rules and you'll be immortal". What does this lead to? You do the right thing not because it is right, but because you'll be rewarded if you do, and not rewarded (which could be seen as punished) if you don't?

A question for Pianistimo because I'm curious: If you are a nice person, never committed a sin or whatever but you're either an atheist or part of a 'not true' religion, and you have no problem whatsoever with any other religion: are you suitable for this eternal afterlife? Or are you condemned to perish in the same destiny as murderers just because you never went to church (or went to the wrong one) and never praised a superior entity or praised a false one?

[ahinton]

I can understand why you seem to be defensive around here, what I don't understand is why you mention the Bible (I thought it was meant to be written with a capital B?) as if I had said anything about it or about any religion in particular for that matter.

She does this because it is some kind of obsessive habit; one has only to skim-read most of her posts to realise that this book is mentioned at least once, sometimes many times over, within each of them.

There's a big IF there which bothers me, it's basically "follow my rules and you'll be immortal". What does this lead to? You do the right thing not because it is right, but because you'll be rewarded if you do, and not rewarded (which could be seen as punished) if you don't?

That's all part of the hellfire and brimstone "principle" on which such people seem to depend.

Best,

Alistair

[lostinidlewonder]

First let's make it clear than I'm not talking about an afterlife, just about a rewarded and punished afterlife according to your actions during this life. I think the idea of some people being rewarded and some punished is basically a moral equation in order to balance and comfort ourselves...

This statement limits the grounds upon which we can talk. You are not talking about a specific afterlife, merely trying to reflect upon the idea of any reward system in any concept of an afterlife. Of course if one merely wants to look at this small part (reward system) and try to determine a full meaning (why we believe in an afterlife) they are going to yield a result which doesn't really tell us much.

A belief in an afterlife is not altogether a selfish act, that is, it is not for us just to feel better and comfort ourselves. However it depends on how you look at the complete picture of an afterlife. Someone who believes in reincarnation or someone who believe in a resurrection of the spirit for instance, this makes a big difference when you try to see answers. However in your post it seems you just want to consider the reward system alone without defining which afterlife you are talking about. As soon as you want to discuss which religion you are talking about then you must look at the entire picture of the religion to yield intelligent conclusions.

If one says "Why believe in an afterlife?" And answer it with "Because of a reward system! that makes us feel good", what are you really trying to say?

because we don't think it's fair that a cute and nice child could die so young while so many criminals and corrupted people are living their lives like kings or just getting 5 years in prison to get out in 2.

Injustice happens always but we don't feel better about it simply by believing in an afterlife or think about a reward system in afterlife. If someone says, oh don't worry that murder, God will get revenge for us in the afterlife! How evil is that thinking??? How can that better yourself! Certainly there are people do actually think in this negative fashion, but we know that is not an intelligent way to live your life. Love is what cleanses our minds not believing in a reward system in an afterlife.

Just take a look at laws and general thinking on gay or black people, or even women 50 years ago, not to mention things like sacrifices, punishments and the way sex or drugs were considered 3000+ years ago; and of course, morality is not consistent through nature in the least either. So how could we be rewarded/punished for eternity because of laws that are constantly changing even during our own life time?

You are assuming that you should understand the scales in of judgement, no one should dare to think about it, so it is not our responsibility to try to tell you how people will be judged. It is pointless thinking imo. If one thinks about the scales then all their actions will be insincere and merely for selfish gain. We have a life to live, to consider our rewards in an afterlife makes us forget about our life now plus makes our actions quite insincere!

Compared to eternity our lives, no matter how long they may be are nothing, and our minds simply cannot comprehend what an infinite time means.

You assume that we will exist in eternity in our physical blood and bone bodies we have now. This might not be the case and perhaps a different state will allow us to percieve what our imperfect minds can understand. After all we all know that we use an extremely small % of our brain power.

With your candy story you are assuming that we have only one chance and can never turn a new leaf. Of course this is untrue and someone may repent on their deathbed. However I really believe sincerity is key. Anyone can play a game and look good, but is it truly in their hearts? Only God can know that for sure. It is useless for us to speculate. But certainly there is not just one moment in our life which condemns us.

You don't see it in action in Business, many successful businessmen and women failed many times, just look at KFC's Colonel Harland Sanders story, or Thomas Edison experiments in the light bulb. Or at school, they don't give you one test in grade 1 and decide, right you will go to university or not. So why expect this when it comes to a judgement in an afterlife? If we consider God to be perfect (even atheists can understand that this must be a requirement of a God), then his judgement will be also perfect and no one will feel hard done by.

Armed with this easy logic you can move on and live your life without letting those scales cloud your thought. If you think arguing about the scales is intelligent then I would wonder why you ignore that God is perfect. If you do not believe in a God then why use the scales as a measuring stick to disprove or cast negative light upon the topic?

"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves.  Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts."

This is assuming that one knows the scales of justice, Einstein was known to try to find solutions to the impossible.

Think of heaven and hell like this. Hell is an absence of God, Heaven is the presence of God. If God doesn't interest you then you have nothing to worry about either way right? You will either get your way, or learn something new.

[iroveashe]

This statement limits the grounds upon which we can talk. You are not talking about a specific afterlife, merely trying to reflect upon the idea of any reward system in any concept of an afterlife. Of course if one merely wants to look at this small part (reward system) and try to determine a full meaning (why we believe in an afterlife) they are going to yield a result which doesn't really tell us much.

I'm not limiting anything, that IS the topic. If you want to talk about afterlife in a more general way I suggest you start another topic.

A belief in an afterlife is not altogether a selfish act, that is, it is not for us just to feel better and comfort ourselves. However it depends on how you look at the complete picture of an afterlife. Someone who believes in reincarnation or someone who believe in a resurrection of the spirit for instance, this makes a big difference when you try to see answers.

Again, that's not the topic. And if you want to know I don't believe in reincarnation simply because the world population has increased a lot.

If one says "Why believe in an afterlife?" And answer it with "Because of a reward system! that makes us feel good", what are you really trying to say?
Injustice happens always but we don't feel better about it simply by believing in an afterlife or think about a reward system in afterlife. If someone says, oh don't worry that murder, God will get revenge for us in the afterlife! How evil is that thinking??? How can that better yourself! Certainly there are people do actually think in this negative fashion, but we know that is not an intelligent way to live your life. Love is what cleanses our minds not believing in a reward system in an afterlife.

Most people believe in an afterlife because they've been taught so (notice I didn't say everyone), and the moral compensation isn't as exaggerated as you put it there, it's more subconscious I believe. I heard a lot of people say when someone dear to them has died something like "At least s/he's in a better place now".

We have a life to live, to consider our rewards in an afterlife makes us forget about our life now plus makes our actions quite insincere!

I couldn't agree more with that.

You assume that we will exist in eternity in our physical blood and bone bodies we have now. This might not be the case and perhaps a different state will allow us to percieve what our imperfect minds can understand. After all we all know that we use an extremely small % of our brain power.

Hmm, no, I never assumed that. But in this life, in the one in which our actions will be judged when it ends we do exist in our physical bodies, with our imperfect minds, therefore when we commit the actions for which we'll be judged we can't comprehend the consequences.

With your candy story you are assuming that we have only one chance and can never turn a new leaf. Of course this is untrue and someone may repent on their deathbed. However I really believe sincerity is key. Anyone can play a game and look good, but is it truly in their hearts? Only God can know that for sure. It is useless for us to speculate. But certainly there is not just one moment in our life which condemns us.

The point was to make that choice as insignificant as possible compared to the consequences of it. The 3 years limit was the equivalent of our whole life while the rest of his life was the equivalent of eternity. He didn't regret or changed his actions because he didn't have time to realize.

About the perfection of God: I can't wrap my mind about it if you believe he created (at His own image) such imperfect creatures like us. I can believe in God in some sort of order and energy way, but to me the idea of God directly creating human beings is too egotistical.

This is assuming that one knows the scales of justice, Einstein was known to try to find solutions to the impossible.

It is impossible assuming justice is not merely a human concept...

Think of heaven and hell like this. Hell is an absence of God, Heaven is the presence of God. If God doesn't interest you then you have nothing to worry about either way right? You will either get your way, or learn something new.

Oh, God interests me, just not the one who needs praising and punishes and rewards His creatures =P

[ikedian]

There was something called the babylonian mystery religion.

That's when I stopped reading.

[thalbergmad]

Am

That's when i stopped.

Thal

[tanman]

That's when i stopped.

Thal

haha
same here.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm not limiting anything, that IS the topic. If you want to talk about afterlife in a more general way I suggest you start another topic.

I am not trying to attack what you say, I am merely stating a fact. If we limit what we are talking about by only considering reward system, then it becomes difficult to discuss the topic because what are we talking about exactly? It is like i say, I don't like the rules in sport, but I dont want to talk about a particular sport I don't like and why I don't like that sports rules.

Again, that's not the topic. And if you want to know I don't believe in reincarnation simply because the world population has increased a lot.
Most people believe in an afterlife because they've been taught so (notice I didn't say everyone), and the moral compensation isn't as exaggerated as you put it there, it's more subconscious I believe. I heard a lot of people say when someone dear to them has died something like "At least s/he's in a better place now".

Unfortunately we do not know what TOPIC you are talking about because you want to talk about an afterlife as a general concept. I was not specifically speaking about any particular afterlife. However I wanted to point out that the single minded concept that one believes in an afterlife SOLELY to recieve a reward or punishment is a form of religion which I do not know about and of which I would like you to explain which religion thinks this way. We certainly can have our own opinions on how a religion uses an afterlife, whether it is true or not requires investigation into the particular religion you want to discuss.

Hmm, no, I never assumed that. But in this life, in the one in which our actions will be judged when it ends we do exist in our physical bodies, with our imperfect minds, therefore when we commit the actions for which we'll be judged we can't comprehend the consequences.

You wrote that you cannot fathom eternity and it would be incomprehensible for the human to understand it or experience it. I don't see the logic of the statement unless one assumes that we will experience eternity in the afterlife with the human mind we have now. Don't worry about judgement, if God is judging us his actions will be perfect and we will not feel that the decision is wrong. Some may not like it but we will not be able to deny it!

The point was to make that choice as insignificant as possible compared to the consequences of it. The 3 years limit was the equivalent of our whole life while the rest of his life was the equivalent of eternity. He didn't regret or changed his actions because he didn't have time to realize.

This is trying to relate a human experience of life with an immortal experience of life which I don't see the logic. Even if our lifetime now is minute compared to eternity, or even compared to the time we did not exist, that has no relevance. Measuring how long our life is now to our eternity doesn't seem to reap information that is helpful.

Even if someone who is say "bad" dies in a random accident and was not given a chance to repent, does this mean that he simply goes straight to hell? I dont know! I wouldn't dare guess at how God will judge. We have no idea about jdugement so why bother trying to learn from considering it?

About the perfection of God: I can't wrap my mind about it if you believe he created (at His own image) such imperfect creatures like us. I can believe in God in some sort of order and energy way, but to me the idea of God directly creating human beings is too egotistical.

This is a Chrisitan consideration that God created us in his image. We are imperfect creatures because we are not, like all the other animals, controlled by instinct. We have choice and we are the only creatures that have a concept of worshiping a God. We are images of God because we can create what we imagine, we are creators of a reality, we can do more than simply eat to survive. Because we are not "perfect" does not mean that it is difficult to understand that we are created in the Image of God. We are not a God, we are merely a reflection of God.

It is impossible assuming justice is not merely a human concept...
Oh, God interests me, just not the one who needs praising and punishes and rewards His creatures =P

How does God interest you? If you do not want to praise a God or follow him and depend on him like sheep their shepherd what use do you have of God?

[iroveashe]

I am not trying to attack what you say, I am merely stating a fact. If we limit what we are talking about by only considering reward system, then it becomes difficult to discuss the topic because what are we talking about exactly? It is like i say, I don't like the rules in sport, but I dont want to talk about a particular sport I don't like and why I don't like that sports rules.

To put it simply: look at the title of the thread =P This is about Heaven and Hell as an afterlife. Saying it limits the discussion it'd be like saying in a "Bars 9-20 of Beethoven's Appassionata" thread that the poster is limiting the subject by leaving out the rest of the piece.

Unfortunately we do not know what TOPIC you are talking about because you want to talk about an afterlife as a general concept. I was not specifically speaking about any particular afterlife. However I wanted to point out that the single minded concept that one believes in an afterlife SOLELY to recieve a reward or punishment is a form of religion which I do not know about and of which I would like you to explain which religion thinks this way. We certainly can have our own opinions on how a religion uses an afterlife, whether it is true or not requires investigation into the particular religion you want to discuss.

I never said anything about a specific religion, I mentioned religion in my first sentence, and I just said it because it's not a scientific or artistic issue, it's usually a topic related to religion; but I am not talking about the Bible, any kind of religion in particular, resurrection, etc.; I am talking about Heaven and Hell.

This is trying to relate a human experience of life with an immortal experience of life which I don't see the logic. Even if our lifetime now is minute compared to eternity, or even compared to the time we did not exist, that has no relevance. Measuring how long our life is now to our eternity doesn't seem to reap information that is helpful.

Well, I see the logic, even though I'm almost asleep right now... which is why I won't type much.

This is a Chrisitan consideration that God created us in his image. We are imperfect creatures because we are not, like all the other animals, controlled by instinct. We have choice and we are the only creatures that have a concept of worshiping a God.

That's one of the things that throws me off from the concept of humans being created by God, that we happen to be the only ones even thinking of him, but that is not something that came from a sudden revelation like say the Bible; the worshiping of gods is obviously as ancient as history goes, the difference now is that people disregarded the idea of "Thunders! Zeus must be angry!" because they found a logical, material reason behind it so the magical explanation was not needed.

How does God interest you? If you do not want to praise a God or follow him and depend on him like sheep their shepherd what use do you have of God?

You can't think of any other way to be interested in God worshiping aside? On one hand I'm interested in the balance and the beauty of the universe; and on the other hand I'm interested in how and why people believe in what they believe, in this case God... or more like Heaven and Hell, since it was the original topic.

I said I wouldn't type much, but oh well...

[lostinidlewonder]

It would be nice if what you said could start more discussion.

[iroveashe]

It would be nice if what you said could start more discussion.

I just sort of ranted my way through the first post, if no one has anything to say I can't do much about it =P

[timothy42b]

To start thinking about an afterlife, does not one have to already have made up one's mind about a more fundamental topic?

That topic being mind-body dualism? 

Clearly bodies die. 

If there is no mind separate from a body, then there is no afterlife.

If there is a spiritmind (possibly a soul) separate and distinct from the brain that houses it, there does not have to be an afterlife;  but the possibility that the spiritmind could continue to exist after the body dies must be admitted. 

I know most of you are under the impression that this problem is solved, and there is no debate, but that is very much not true.

Nor was it true in OT times, nor early Christian church times.  Judaism taught a bodily resurrection, NOT a spiritual afterlife;  Jesus's resurrection should really be contemplated in those terms and not in 20th century mindsets.  So should his death!

[antichrist]

you don't believe in heaven or hell because ur in 2009 AD, not 209 AD 

[pianowolfi]

That's all part of the hellfire and brimstone "principle" on which such people seem to depend.

Best,

Alistair

The hellfire and brimstone concept, as so many religious concepts, is completely manmade. Same goes for the punishment and reward concept. I have thought a lot about it during my life and so far I came to this conclusion. Concepts like this are simplifications, designed from a limited viewpoint. Also many concepts of God are like this.

[go12_3]

There is no heaven nor hell, only WE make it so on Earth.