My assessment of what constitutes the greatest technique.

[m19834]

Oh, I was in a hurry last time I got here and I didn't see these posts !  I am in a hurry again, so I will only answer one thing !

I think there are many who appreciate the piano as more than a musical instrument.

Ideally, I would like to think of anything at my fingertips, whether it be computer keyboard, piano keyboard, pen, pencil, paintbrush, whatever it is, as an extension of thought and an expression of mind.

[michel dvorsky]

There are thousands of pianists who can blaze through the most difficult pieces in the repertoire with great speed and accuracy.

We don't know their names because they just aren't interesting.

At a certain level, technique is only interesting to pianists insofar as they can accomplish their separate and unique musical objectives. 

opus10no2 doesn't even have enough piano technique to understand this. 

There will always be people impressed by loud diminished 7th chords and washes of arpeggios.  Call it whatever you want (charlatanism?) - just don't call it art.

[opus10no2]

At a certain level, technique is only interesting to pianists insofar as they can accomplish their separate and unique musical objectives. 

Wauw, sprinters suddenly question their goals and become ballet dancers once they break the 10 second barrier in the 100m? 

There are thousands of pianists who can blaze through the most difficult pieces in the repertoire with great speed and accuracy.

Really? Is that so?

I'm interested in the elite, the guys who'd make the team.

[opus10no2]

There will always be people impressed by loud diminished 7th chords and washes of arpeggios.  Call it whatever you want (charlatanism?) - just don't call it art.

Good point?

I'm impressed by something unique or only capable by few.

[michel dvorsky]

Wauw, sprinters suddenly question their goals and become ballet dancers once they break the 10 second barrier in the 100m? 

Really? Is that so?

I'm interested in the elite, the guys who'd make the team.

The point of the 100m is running fast.  The important physical characteristics are those possessed by Usain Bolt.  It's really irrelevant how Bolt crosses the finish line, only that he does it 0.001 second faster than Maurice Greene, or his team mates.

Pianism is physical, no doubt.  But the point is art.  There is no prototype 'Usain Bolt' physique in piano.  Big burly men like Petrov, Ogdon, and Berman are just as capable of pianissimo as small fellas like Hofmann and Barere are capable of earth-shattering fortissimos.  The only unifying facet about great pianists are talent, skill, musical erudition, and artistic soul.

[opus10no2]

The point of the 100m is running fast.  

The point of the 4 octave scale time trial is about playing fast.

Pianism is physical, no doubt.  But the point is art.

Yes, the invention was musical, but it just so happens that this instrument is the perfect device to act as an arena for the 10 fingers to be pushed to their physical limits. A lateral equivelant of the racing track.

[michel dvorsky]

The point of the 4 octave scale time trial is about playing fast.

Yes, the invention was musical, but it just so happens that this instrument is the perfect device to act as an arena for the 10 fingers to be pushed to their physical limits. A lateral equivelant of the racing track.

You would be a great poster child in a campaign designed to illustrate the consequences of forgoing secondary and post secondary education.

[opus10no2]

You would be a great poster child in a campaign designed to illustrate the consequences of forgoing secondary and post secondary education.

Yes, and you are jewish.

Get to the point.

[michel dvorsky]

Yes, and you are jewish.

Get to the point.

No, I'm sorry. You've been making the same tired non-arguments for the last 6 years.  You're essentially a pus spewing, masturbatory, technique fetishising troll who has gotten nowhere himself.  These kinds of discussions are pathetic and barely merit the attention of those of us who are trying to better ourselves with hard work.

[opus10no2]

Why did you weigh-in?

It's not even an argument, as you say. People who move their fingers faster than anyone else indeed merit at least some of the admiration and respect that is given to those who move their legs faster than anyone else.
It's a simple proposal, and the only cause for an argument against it is that fingers should only be used for art and not competition.. which I can only see coming from those unable to complete.
Indeed, it is fine to go on playing little Bach menuets, there'll always be the special piano olympics for special people like you, don't worry. 

[iroveashe]

People who move their fingers faster than anyone else indeed merit at least some of the admiration and respect that is given to those who move their legs faster than anyone else.
It's a simple proposal, and the only cause for an argument against it is that fingers should only be used for art and not competition.. which I can only see coming from those unable to complete.
Indeed, it is fine to go on playing little Bach menuets, there'll always be the special piano olympics for special people like you, don't worry. 

Obviously, to you music is not an art but a sport. You could have the fastest fingers in the history of man kind, but that wouldn't make you an artist, it's a good thing apparently you're happy with that.

[daniel patschan]

Why did you weigh-in?

It's not even an argument, as you say. People who move their fingers faster than anyone else indeed merit at least some of the admiration and respect that is given to those who move their legs faster than anyone else.
It's a simple proposal, and the only cause for an argument against it is that fingers should only be used for art and not competition.. which I can only see coming from those unable to complete.
Indeed, it is fine to go on playing little Bach menuets, there'll always be the special piano olympics for special people like you, don't worry. 

I think we have at least to admit that he is right in an important point: it is of course impressive if somebody can move the fingers fast ! There is no question. Yes, we are impressed by Horowitz, Argerich and Hamelin. It is impressive to be able to control a difficult (means in this case pieces like Feu Follet, Opus 10-2, Alkan ect. - and nobody will argue that they are difficult to play) piece with ease and force.

[m19834]

I think we have at least to admit that he is right in an important point: it is of course impressive if somebody can move the fingers fast !

No, sorry, in and of itself it's just not anymore  .  It was at one time to me, but it's just not anymore.

It is impressive to be able to control a difficult (means in this case pieces like Feu Follet, Opus 10-2, Alkan ect. - and nobody will argue that they are difficult to play) piece with ease and force.

It is nice to see/hear an individual have government within a piece, but to me, that includes musical ideas.  What is infinitely more impressive to me than "fast fingers," and something I have rarely heard, is when somebody can make the piano sound like a living, moving, breathing, soulful entity ... fast fingers or not.  Achieving something like that is my assessment of what constitutes the greatest technique.

[opus10no2]

Obviously, to you music is not an art but a sport. You could have the fastest fingers in the history of man kind, but that wouldn't make you an artist, it's a good thing apparently you're happy with that.

   It's possible to be an artist AND a sportsperson.

It's also obvious I love music and have a wider knowledge of repertoire than most members on this board.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,24227.0.html

We've been through this before.

[opus10no2]

No, sorry, in and of itself it's just not anymore  .  It was at one time to me, but it's just not anymore.

A classic example of regressive immaturity brought on by the dogmatic pretentious 'artists' out there.

I will repeat - why should the individual with the fastest fingers in the world be any less admired and respected than the individual with the fastest legs?

Even if sport and competition doesn't interest you, I believe it's natural and important to have respect for any extremely rare ability requiring dedication, passion and great discipline.

[m19834]

A classic example of regressive immaturity brought on by the dogmatic pretentious 'artists' out there.

Sorry, but you are just plain wrong  . 

I will repeat - why should the individual with the fastest fingers in the world be any less admired and respected than the individual with the fastest legs?

hmmm ... well, firstly, I just don't believe in "the fastest in the world" ... there is actually no way to declare it, because in my mind there could always be somebody somewhere who just didn't show up to the race because they had much better things to do and much different ways to think of themselves and of life than how fast certain parts of their body can move.  Secondly, in order for me to actually respect them, there's got to be something much more to their character than possessing some form of "gift."  Unfortunately, it is very easy and likely for an individual whom does happen to possess a particular gift -that, in some cases, many people admire- for that individual to let that/those characteristic(s) define their entire being.   

Even if sport and competition doesn't interest you, I believe it's natural and important to have respect for any extremely rare ability requiring dedication, passion and great discipline.

Well, again, you just have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to who I am, what I do or should respect (sorry, but it's got to be a joke you trying to tell me how I should think and what I should respect). 

[opus10no2]

No joke. You've demonstrated a lack of respect for all competitive physical disciplines.
It requires a gift but also a whole lot more.

Again can I repeat that you are in the minority. It's NORMAL to be in awe of a phenomenal physical achievment, the Olympics are HUGE.

[m19834]

No joke. You've demonstrated a lack of respect for all competitive physical disciplines.
It requires a gift but also a whole lot more.

Again, it's just not true.  I have not actually demonstrated that at all, especially using the argument you just presented "it requires a gift but also a whole lot more."  If nothing else, that is part of what I am saying ... ha ha ... I like that  .  "If I am not saying anything at all, that is only part of what I am saying" ... LOL.

Okay.  Anyway, I think you just really don't understand what my respect actually is.  The thing is, that is okay with me.  I don't need you to understand it, and I don't need you to respect my opinions.  I am just having a conversation.

Again can I repeat that you are in the minority. It's NORMAL to be in awe of a phenomenal physical achievment, the Olympics are HUGE.

Sure, but you would have to have said it once first  .  No, just joking.  I know you have implied it before.  Anyway, I am perfectly aware that in many ways I am a minority, I have been well aware of that all my life because of a number of different things  .  Anyway, I best get this girl movin' !  Bye bye for now, and don't worry, I just think ... I don't know, I just love today.  I am just filled with love, that is what I am deciding.  Sometimes I like to mentally picture the whole world, the whole earth, and I just hold it in my arms like it's a baby that I cradeling.  And sometimes I think of every, single person I have ever known and can think of, even people I don't know very well, and I just love them ... like the sound coming from an organ ... just filling the whole room ... I just do that to that individual.  Bye for now, Opus .

[opus10no2]

Okay.  Anyway, I think you just really don't understand what my respect actually is.  The thing is, that is okay with me.

I want to understand because I have enough respect for you to not think you are crazy coocoo woman.

Elucidate your stance plz.

[m19834]

Elucidate your stance plz.

aeh ... c'maaaannn, Opus.  You and I both know that to make something clear to you, you have to want to open your mind a little and think slightly differently than what is already stuck inside your head.  By now, I have given my thoughts and opinions enough that if it is not clear to you, that is not truly my problem.  I mean, I am aware that I am not spelling everything out, exactly, but why should I for you ?  Just so you don't think I am a coocoo woman for not joining you in your way of thinking and line of reasoning ?  I think it bothers you most that I am not just folding and that you can't seem to make me do so.  I don't think you are truly interested in what I think, I think you would like to better know what I am thinking, mainly so you can proceed with your same modus operandi with more information and perhaps what would appear to be more pertinent-to-me tactics. 

No dice !

[opus10no2]

I don't want to change your mind, and you know mine wont change.

There were 2 simple answers I wanted clarified.
Do you respect top athletes?
Do you think moving fingers fast is as admirable/useless as moving legs fast?

You can express your boredom with anything sport-related. I wonder what you think the purpose is for any purely physical endeavour and whether you think it is a valid use of time and human resources.

[m19834]

There were 2 simple answers I wanted clarified.

Why ?  And, furthermore, apparently you have not been actually reading my posts up to this point, so why should I proceed in stating, yet again, basically the same things ?  The only thing that I think would help you better respect my opinions regarding these, would be if I actually told you more about my life, and sorry, I just don't feel like it  .

[opus10no2]

Why ? 

You haven't answered them clearly and directly. You dance around the issue, it's incredibly annoying.

[iroveashe]

There were 2 simple answers I wanted clarified.
Do you respect top athletes?
Do you think moving fingers fast is as admirable/useless as moving legs fast?

Legs are human's way of transportation, we "respect" (I say it like that because I don't know why anyone wouldn't respect anyone else unless they've done some offense, regardless if they're athletes, pianists, or the mailman) people who can 'move their legs fast' because they get somewhere fast. The point of races is to get from point A to point B as fast as you can. The point of music, whether it's Liszt or Alkan or whatever, it's not getting from point A to point B as fast as you can. It may be your goal, but to me is the equivalent of a runner who moves their legs graciously, elegantly and emotionally, but inefficiently and slowly.
On another point, playing piano fast is obviously not just moving your fingers fast, but your whole hands and your arms. If you want to know how much "respect" you could get from that, just read the idiotic comments on this video.

[opus10no2]

The point of music, whether it's Liszt or Alkan or whatever, it's not getting from point A to point B as fast as you can.

Have I mentioned music? Music is irrelevant in this discussion.

On another point, playing piano fast is obviously not just moving your fingers fast, but your whole hands and your arms.

Of course.

... 'move their legs fast' because they get somewhere fast. The point of races is to get from point A to point B as fast as you can.

Yes, and any sequence of motions can be used as a race..be it with arms, hands or legs.

[iroveashe]

Have I mentioned music? Music is irrelevant in this discussion.

Then why play on a piano? Why not just move your fingers against a table? Better yet, why not, since there are apparently so many followers of the ultimate speed, build a machine that emulates the mechanics of the piano, but produces no sound AND has a tempo meter, that measures exactly your speed and precision. If music is not relevant it'd be an advantage, since it's more admirable to correctly move your fingers fast and accurately without a sound guide, and you could make the competition element more precise and official.

Yes, and any sequence of motions can be used as a race..be it with arms, hands or legs.

I wasn't aware of that since I'm not a sports fan nor I know much about the Olympics. Would you mind telling me which races are performed while sitting on a chair?

[m19834]

You haven't answered them clearly and directly.

Well, I feel that I more or less have, actually.  But, I also don't much see the point either way.  More than that though, I need a break from this topic  .

PS- I am honestly not trying to annoy you, I apologize for being annoying to you though.

[opus10no2]

Then why play on a piano? Why not just move your fingers against a table? Better yet, why not, since there are apparently so many followers of the ultimate speed, build a machine that emulates the mechanics of the piano, but produces no sound AND has a tempo meter, that measures exactly your speed and precision. If music is not relevant it'd be an advantage, since it's more admirable to correctly move your fingers fast and accurately without a sound guide, and you could make the competition element more precise and official.

Good idea.

As it is, currently, musical instruments are the primary means of showing off digital dexterity. The piano is ideal..as the technique is more 'raw' and simple than just about any instrument.
The faster a persons fingers and wrists are, the faster they can execute a sequence/figuration.

[iroveashe]

Good idea.

As it is, currently, musical instruments are the primary means of showing off digital dexterity. The piano is ideal..as the technique is more 'raw' and simple than just about any instrument.

Not really, other keyboard instruments have a softer and lighter touch than piano, and I'm pretty sure you could acquire faster speeds.

[m19834]

Would you mind telling me which races are performed while sitting on a chair?

Bobsled, luge, chess ...

[opus10no2]

Not really, other keyboard instruments have a softer and lighter touch than piano, and I'm pretty sure you could acquire faster speeds.

Yep, there would have to be a regulation key weight resistance in any contest.

I wasn't aware of that since I'm not a sports fan nor I know much about the Olympics. Would you mind telling me which races are performed while sitting on a chair?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFD_World%27s_Fastest_Drummer_Extreme_Sport_Drumming

Why can't their be an equivelant for fingers?

[go12_3]

Bobsled, luge, chess ...

the violin...

[m19834]

the violin...

video games, composing, eating, living, pottying ...

[iroveashe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFD_World%27s_Fastest_Drummer_Extreme_Sport_Drumming

Why can't their be an equivelant for fingers?

There is:

[opus10no2]

There is:

Sure, I've seen that, very impressive

but -

[ Invalid YouTube link ]

It's more of a picking display, and fingers alone would be different. Plus he's only using 4 fingers... it's a bit different to the wider range of dexterity tests that can be done on the piano.

[weissenberg2]

technique is piss worthless if you have no ideas with it.

[rc]

If pure digital dexterity is what you're after, I figure a regular computer keyboard would be more difficult in terms of speed and accuracy:  much smaller keys, more layers of depth, and any inaccuracy can be easily found by reading it afterwards.

In the end, I'm like most people here - in it for the art and the music.  I'll get my competitive sporting fix elsewhere.

[richard black]

Do you respect top athletes?
Do you think moving fingers fast is as admirable/useless as moving legs fast?

I greatly respect and admire top athletes. Fancy some of them, indeed - one widely admitted side-effect of athletic training is that it makes the human body, to many eyes, rather beautiful.

I don't think that moving fingers fast is as admirable as moving legs fast (no comment on 'useless' or not - both have their uses). I don't think that moving toes (in isolation) fast is as admirable, not moving eyebrows as fast, nor penises. And evidently I'm not alone, since there is no Olympic penis-wiggling contest. Face it, mate, you're trying to promote a deeply minority interest in the face of a huge communal yawn on the part of the rest of us. You are absolutely entitled to your fascination with digital speed, it's just that the rest of us COULDN'T GIVE A ****, all right?

[m19834]

Well, if there were piano Olympics, aside from the competitions that already exist, I might even one day watch.  I don't know ?  But, along the lines of the thread, I don't think fast fingers are actually an objective assessment of what constitutes technique.  If that were the case, I guess competitions like the Van Cliburn wouldn't even mess with sound at all, but would rather have people play digital pianos without sound.  And, why judge on anything but a stopwatch then ?

Anyhoo, this thread is jacked, but for some reason I am addicted to it !  ha ha ... maybe I am addicted to speed afterall  .  nah.

[opus10no2]

Face it, mate, you're trying to promote a deeply minority interest in the face of a huge communal yawn on the part of the rest of us. You are absolutely entitled to your fascination with digital speed, it's just that the rest of us COULDN'T GIVE A ****, all right?

I know, I think it is still an interest to many a pianist, just perhaps not in the purified sporting terms I present it.
People are wowed by 'virtuoso displays' in fast pieces. It's a common thing in the less musically knowledgable crowd, but thought of as a thing to be ashamed of being impressed by when it comes to more 'musically erudite' folk.

[opus10no2]

I don't think that moving fingers fast is as admirable as moving legs fast (no comment on 'useless' or not - both have their uses).

That's fine, but why?

Why is there a mass public interest in achievment with one body part and not another?

Both demand great discipline but one gets much less respect than the other.

Instrumental speed has actually been admired as one of the key virtuoso elements for centuries, and all I'm saying is...why not take this element of the discipline and treat it for what it is - an athletic endeavour - one which most encounter with musical ends alone...and treat it as a sport to actually see who is best.

[Bob]

Instrumental speed has actually been admired as one of the key virtuoso elements for centuries, and all I'm saying is...why not take this element of the discipline and treat it for what it is - an athletic endeavour - one which most encounter with musical ends alone...and treat it as a sport to actually see who is best.

Sure.  Why not?  Technique is technique.  I think anyone admires it. 

I remember something about a technical Olympics coming up before.  But someone could just use a lighter action piano.  ... Unless everyone played on the same instrument.  That could work. You could have every aspect of technique.  Or ear training.  Or theory. 

I was wondering what the guitar bumble bee guy would do with that technique, but I suppose someone has to break new ground and then composers can write music for that technique.  Or they could write it to encourage more technical growth.

[opus10no2]

Sure, it's not an issue for guitarists so much because they mainly play their own stuff.

Faster music doesn't have to be written... the ability to play faster allows for new sounds at the piano, dizzying textures. Just because there can be 40 notes a second doesn't mean each one is a melody note.

[scottmcc]

I'll be in the front row of the concert hall for the 1st Annual Hanon International Competition, as organized by opus10n2.  It will be amazingly awesome to listen to pianists bang their way through the book as quickly as possible, with penalties for every wrong note.  Yep, it'll be a true testament to musical achievement, and hopefully somebody records it, because I wouldn't want a one-of-a-kind performance like that to be lost.

[Bob]

If people can play faster, there should be music that uses that ability.  I would think someone would write something for that, just to break new ground.

Why not start a few threads on here with a Piano Technique Olympics?  I think that would be interesting.  Use the audition boards.
Have a table of contents.
Then link to different technical aspects...
Scales
Arpeggios
Scales in octaves

People would be on different instruments, but it would be something at least.

[opus10no2]

Yep, it'll be a true testament to musical achievement

No, it wouldn't.

[opus10no2]

If people can play faster, there should be music that uses that ability.  I would think someone would write something for that, just to break new ground.

Why not start a few threads on here with a Piano Technique Olympics?  I think that would be interesting.  Use the audition boards.
Have a table of contents.
Then link to different technical aspects...
Scales
Arpeggios
Scales in octaves

People would be on different instruments, but it would be something at least.

I agree!

I do think there is competitive interest out there but I feel many might be afraid and ashamed of revealing their limits.

[rob47]

"Karli's a genuine "head case," posing as a feeling intellectual with the most irrational pronouncements on music that I have ever read.  No, irrational is a compliment.  She's demented and beneath amateurish.  Nothing she writes makes sense.  Opus is "da original speed freak" from a parallel universe who has irritated and driven away some of the most thoughtful pianists on this forum.

That they united in this unholy dialogue strikes me as the most absurd development here in months."

 -- CMG, April 9th 2009

[Bob]

I agree!

I do think there is competitive interest out there but I feel many might be afraid and ashamed of revealing their limits.

It sounds more and more interesting to me.  But what are the areas of technique? 

And the flaws in the system?  I guess someone could doctor a recording or have someone else play, but that's always possible. 

But for technique, where you do you end?  Fast scales is easy to come up with, but what about playing quietly?  Or voicing?  Stretching?  Playing all the tones in a chord at exactly the same moment? 

Or rhythm?  Fast and lumpy isn't so great. 

And then etudes I suppose.


Maybe you could start with just fast scales and let it grow.  Fast octaves.  Fast arpeggios.  Someone would come up with more eventually.

And then there's the mental side.  Tranpose a given melody.  Something like that. 

[opus10no2]

Sure, any individual element of virtuostic can be judged but the OP got it right with his focus on speed because a stopwatch never lies.