Question to A. Hinton

[daniel patschan]

Dear Mr. Hinton !

It always interested me whether one guy out there really exists. His name (as you may already have heard of him) is Artur Cimirro. He now plans to record

SORABJI - OPUS ARCHIMAGICUM (SONATA V)

On his web page he presents future projects and in June/July this year a CD containing this works will be released. Did you hear about it ? If so, he must propably be real.

Daniel

[ahinton]

Dear Mr. Hinton !

It always interested me whether one guy out there really exists. His name (as you may already have heard of him) is Artur Cimirro. He now plans to record

SORABJI - OPUS ARCHIMAGICUM (SONATA V)

On his web page he presents future projects and in June/July this year a CD containing this works will be released. Did you hear about it ? If so, he must propably be real.

Daniel

Yes, I have heard about this and yes, Mr Cimirro is indeed real. Whether or when he will accomplish this remarkable feat I cannot tell you as I do not know; there is, after all, no edition of the work as yet, although one is currently in preparation.

Best,

Alistair

[daniel patschan]

Thank you very much !

D.

[thalbergmad]

Me old mate Artur is the real deal. He will also be recording the complete Tausig in the not too distant future.

You can hear him at this years Toledo Festival, albeit i don't know if he is going to play any Sorabji. It would go down like a lead balloon perhaps?.

Thal

[gep]

You can hear him at this years Toledo Festival, albeit i don't know if he is going to play any Sorabji. It would go down like a lead balloon perhaps?.

Thal

Because???

[ahinton]

Me old mate Artur is the real deal. He will also be recording the complete Tausig in the not too distant future.

He has indicated that he will be doing that, yes; the Acte Préalable label is supposedly issuing these.

You can hear him at this years Toledo Festival, albeit i don't know if he is going to play any Sorabji. It would go down like a lead balloon perhaps?.

I am not aware that he plans to play any Sorabji there. Why, however, do you suppose that any of his work might go down as you suggest in that place? Do you have hard evidence for this from concertgoers in that location? For that matter, have you ever actually encountered a lead balloon? By the way, this reminds me (albeit somewhat obliquely) of a woodwind player whom I heard speaking about a certain concerto by Panufnik (one of his last works, if I recall correctly) and suggesting that it might go down in a certain venue like a lead bassoon. Did you know that Opus Clavicembalisticum had a recent performance in Madrid, by the way?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Because???

If it is 4 hours long and sounds like a bull in a Steinway Showroom, it could be too much for your average festival attendee.

Thal

[ahinton]

If it is 4 hours long and sounds like a bull in a Steinway Showroom, it could be too much for your average festival attendee.

Let's take that one apart, one point at a time.
1. Very few of Sorabji's works are four hours long; a few are more than this and most are far shorter.
2. There is no evidence that the duration of any piece will in itself guarantee that its performance might be "too much" (of what?) for anyone.
3. Since I doubt that you have any more experience of male bovines in a Steinway showroom (let alone whether they might sound different in such places than in their more usual habitat, for example) than you have of lead balloons, your suggestion that any of Sorabji's works might sound like the former is about as valid as your earlier one that performances of them might go down like the latter.
4. What is an average festival attendee? Festivals themselves very enormously not only in content but in variety of content; it is therefore reasonable to assume that, the more varied the content, the less pertinent and identifiable any such "average" might be in any case.
5. For the record, when Jonathan Powell played four Sorabji works in one programme to a French festival audience of whom less than once per cent had ever previously heard a note of Sorabji, he elicited rapt attention throughout - and this programme, whilst it did not contain any of Sorabji's "four hour long" works, was nevertheless challenging both the audience and pianist in that those works spanned 60 years of compositional activity and bore durations of approximately 26, 35, 85 and 62 minutes respectively, adding up to two-interval event whose total length was in excess of four hours.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

If it is 4 hours long and sounds like a bull in a Steinway Showroom, it could be too much for your average festival attendee.

Thal

I wonder how you know that it "sounds like a bull in a Steinway Showroom"? I'd be MOST surprised if it did!
Secondly, even if it IS "too much for your average festival attendee", so what? Should every concert contain only that what is pleasable for the average concert and/or festival attendee? Classic FM in concert, so to say? Or should there be room for something that actually may need some dedicated mental attendance? Or contains music perhaps not digested to the very last bit at first hearing?
If this Sonata sounds something in the line of, say, Symphony 4, that I would think it possible for the average attendee, asuming he/she is someone with a moderately intelligence and a willingness to hear something new, quite possible to not only endure but actually follow and even like the piece. This judging from the fact that even I can appreciate Sorabji's music in general and said Symphony 4 in particular.
But your totally free to devote yourselves to, say, Feldman's String Quartet (II), which is also 4 hours long but sounds like drying paint looks (or, to keep within your metaphor, sounds like a dead bull in a Steinway Showroom), which is then perhaps not so fearfull to you? Personally, I find thát kind of music too much!

[thalbergmad]

If this Sonata sounds something in the line of, say, Symphony 4, that I would think it possible for the average attendee, asuming he/she is someone with a moderately intelligence and a willingness to hear something new, quite possible to not only endure but actually follow and even like the piece.

Now what you say here is important, as it appears you are suggesting that you need to have intelligence (albeit moderate) to appreciate Sorabji. I would go even further and suggest that you need a beard as well.

Personally, I think the time might come when the music of Sorabji's great teacher might be heard as much as Sorabji himself, as no intelligence would be required at all.

However, this might not be trew.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

For the record, when Jonathan Powell played four Sorabji works in one programme to a French festival audience of whom less than once per cent had ever previously heard a note of Sorabji, he elicited rapt attention throughout

I am sure they both enjoyed it.

Thal

[weissenberg2]

Is this piece hard?

[ahinton]

I am sure they both enjoyed it.

Your boredom content is self-enhanced here. By "both" one might assume you to mean Jonathan Powell himself and his page-turner but, whilst your remark might well apply in such a context, I was referring to the audience of some 150 people who braved a searingly hot summer Sunday afternoon to take in all that Sorabji and Mr Powell offered on that occasion and responded accordingly. You may not like to have to accept that, but that's up to you.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Now what you say here is important, as it appears you are suggesting that you need to have intelligence (albeit moderate) to appreciate Sorabji.

Indeed I do, although I should perhaps have been more clear and state that you need at least a moderate intelligence to appreciate Sorabji. And be prepared to use it, of course! But that applies to most classical music, I think. If you like music (stretching the term) with requires no intelligence whatsoever, one might turn to most pop-music in general and the various house-music in particular.

I would go even further and suggest that you need a beard as well.

An unnecessary stab, I think. And I can personally testify it to be untrue, too. Actually, at a (partially) Sorabji concerts I've been to (played by Jonathan Powell, I might add), there were several dozen people despite the extremly foul weather that made travel all but impossible. None of the people there had a beard. And all very much enjoyed the Sorabji piece played, I might add!
Now let me ask, are you even capable of growing a beard? Quite some of your posts suggest not....

Personally, I think the time might come when the music of Sorabji's great teacher might be heard as much as Sorabji himself, as no intelligence would be required at all.

Now I must admit not knowing what you mean here. If anyone is "Sorabji's great teacher", then it must be Busoni, for whose music one would need (to switch on) some intelligence too.

It would seem to me that you think that if you cannot undertand some composer's music said music must be nonsense, and if you don't like it it must be bad. An incarnation of Hanslick!

Die Sonne scheinet ja länger auf die Gipfel der Berge als in der Tiefe des Thals...

[thalbergmad]

Indeed I do, although I should perhaps have been more clear and state that you need at least a moderate intelligence to appreciate Sorabji. And be prepared to use it, of course! But that applies to most classical music, I think. If you like music (stretching the term) with requires no intelligence whatsoever, one might turn to most pop-music in general and the various house-music in particular.

Listen pal, i crack the jokes on here. This is so stupid it simply must be a joke.

I can just image the advertising posters.

Concert: 16th April 2009
Venue: Squash Court, Malborough Street, London
Pianist: Leif Gunner Prikkarson
Tickets: £16
Intelligence required: Moderate

Thanks for the laugh.

Thal

[gep]

pal

That's a video format, yes?

Quote from: gep on Today at 05:58:41 AM
Indeed I do, although I should perhaps have been more clear and state that you need at least a moderate intelligence to appreciate Sorabji. And be prepared to use it, of course! But that applies to most classical music, I think. If you like music (stretching the term) with requires no intelligence whatsoever, one might turn to most pop-music in general and the various house-music in particular.

Listen pal, i crack the jokes on here. This is so stupid it simply must be a joke.

The one bit where I'm fully serious.....
Although, the various bits of Dance, Trance, and whatever sh*t is on MTV and it's various clones IS a joke. And a bad one too...

I can just image the advertising posters.

Concert: 16th April 2009
Venue: Squash Court, Malborough Street, London
Pianist: Leif Gunner Prikkarson
Tickets: £16
Intelligence required: Moderate

Hmm, this might not even be a bad idea! WARNING: new and/or difficult music ahead. Fasten your brainbelts!

[hansscherff]

The one bit where I'm fully serious.....
Although, the various bits of Dance, Trance, and whatever sh*t is on MTV and it's various clones IS a joke. And a bad one too...
Hmm, this might not even be a bad idea! WARNING: new and/or difficult music ahead. Fasten your brainbelts!

The fact that you talk about popular music with disdain and talk about classical music as if it needs a certain intelligence to be able to listen to it makes me wonder wether you are intelligent enough for classical music 

[thalbergmad]

The fact that you talk about popular music with disdain and talk about classical music as if it needs a certain intelligence to be able to listen to it makes me wonder wether you are intelligent enough for classical music 

It is this kind of attitude that gep has displayed that might put some people off and i think it is musical snobbery, which i detest.

Perhaps each composer should have an IQ rating so that you cannot listen to him/her if you do not have sufficient intelligence. Let me try a little list.

Composer           IQ required
Sorabji               190
Finnissey            180
Carter                170 
Beethoven          160
Chopin               150
Liszt                  140
Schumann           130
Herz                   10
Hunten                0

Thal 

[gep]

The fact that you talk about popular music with disdain and talk about classical music as if it needs a certain intelligence to be able to listen to it makes me wonder wether you are intelligent enough for classical music 

I think there is a difference between pop-music and popular music (even if the former is used as a short for the latter). I would think someone like André Rieu (if you know him) fits under "popular music", but not under pop-music. I have nothing but respect for Mr. Rieu.
The trash and muck that is almost inescapable today (such as the mentioned MTV, inter alia) I talk about with disdain, yes. Sorry to have a taste...
I do think it would need some intelligence to listen to (i.e. digest mentally) classical music, be it Johann Strauss, or Sorabji. I never have, nor ever will, make a claim to have anything above the average intelligence. But it is not so much what you have as what you do with it.

It is this kind of attitude that gep has displayed that might put some people off and i think it is musical snobbery, which i detest.

I think it to be impossible to have any attitude that is not putting at least some people off. I you think I display musical snobbery, feel free to do so. If such detest you, feel equally free to be so. I've read some of your posts (upto and including the very last, I'd say) which I find rather snobbish, if not even insulting to some people.

Perhaps each composer should have an IQ rating so that you cannot listen to him/her if you do not have sufficient intelligence. Let me try a little list.

Composer           IQ required
Sorabji               190
Finnissey            180
Carter                170 
Beethoven          160
Chopin               150
Liszt                  140
Schumann           130
Herz                   10
Hunten                0

You either overestimate the difficulty of the above composers, or underestimate your own intelligence. The fact that I can no just listen but actually enjoy the composers you name should be proof that a normal intelligence is quite sufficient. But they do take some mental work, yes. Is that a problem?

[ahinton]

Listen pal, i crack the jokes on here.

You have a special exclusive dispensation from Nils to do that, do you? If so, you really ought to take your responsibility seriously and crack better ones than this.

I can just image the advertising posters.

Concert: 16th April 2009
Venue: Squash Court, Malborough Street, London
Pianist: Leif Gunner Prikkarson
Tickets: £16
Intelligence required: Moderate

By "image" one might presume (if one cared) you to mean "imagine", although what follows suggests that you have an overactive imagination which, whilst no bad thing in itself, is subject - as gep reminds that intelligence is also - to what you do with it more than the extent to which you have it.

London has no "Malborough Street" and the nearest equivalent thereto is Great, as in "Great Marlborough Street".

I hope that Leif Ove Andsnes isn'ta member of this forum and that, if he is, he does not take offence at your mock pianist's name.

Our wise and great British government has yet to introduce compulsory National Identity Cards (though it has threatened to spend zillions of its long-suffering taxpayers' hard-earned money on so doing), but I was not aware that intelligence level data was anticipated to be included thereon; without it, however, how would anyone expect to be able to gain admittance to an event that stipulated a specific minimum certifed intelligence quotient as a condition of eligibility to purchase a ticket?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It is this kind of attitude that gep has displayed that might put some people off

People called Thal, perhaps; not sure how many of those there are...

and i think it is musical snobbery, which i detest.

And what follows below from you is...?...

Perhaps each composer should have an IQ rating so that you cannot listen to him/her if you do not have sufficient intelligence. Let me try a little list.

Composer           IQ required
Sorabji               190
Finnissey            180
Carter                170 
Beethoven          160
Chopin               150
Liszt                  140
Schumann           130
Herz                   10
Hunten                0

But even if such a list had a shred of credibility (which of course it doesn't), who would stop - or even be able to stop - anyone listening to any of the above composers, especially in the privacy of their own homes, on the sole basis of insufficient provable IQ? The National Identity Card thought police? - and, if so, might they commit acts of violence on suspected transgressors, as at the recent G20 summit protests in London? In addition to the credibility factor of your list (which is a minus figure), you have spelt "Finnissy" incorrectly by adding an "e" to his name (and you've spelt "Hinton" even more incorrectly by using two wrong vowels)...

Now I hope not to appear unduly controversial by my next suggestion, but what about returning to the topic?

Best,

Alistair

[Petter]

To Hinton: I'm curious why you and others thought it was a shame that recordings of Sorabjis own playing got out, from some radioshow in the 70s. I think he played gorgoeus. Some mentioned that some parts were improvised, but is that really such a big deal? And I'm curious how to order your music, the Grieg variations. I didn't really get it how to order from Altarus.

[ahinton]

To Hinton: I'm curious why you and others thought it was a shame that recordings of Sorabjis own playing got out, from some radioshow in the 70s. I think he played gorgoeus. Some mentioned that some parts were improvised, but is that really such a big deal? And I'm curious how to order your music, the Grieg variations. I didn't really get it how to order from Altarus.

I will happily answer both of those questions.

I have never actually suggested that it was a "shame" that a few (though by no means all) of those recordings got aired on radio in the 1970s (actually from 1969 onwards on several small American public FM stations), but I do indeed have a list of caveats about them. Yes, he knows how to get "the Sorabji sound" (well, and so he should - it's his alone, after all!), at best it is indeed gorgeous and the late Charles Hopkins certainly said that he learnt much from listening to Sorabji's recording of that work when preparing his own recording of it, for all that Sorabji departed (sometimes quite alarmingly) from the ms. text.

That's the good news; the less good news is as follows. Sorabji has not performed in public for more than a quarter century when he began to make these recordings in the early 1960s (he made more than 11 hours' worth of them eventually); he was then in his 70s and had not practised regularly for a long time, nor, it has to be said, did he devote anything like the amount of practice time required in advance of making those recordings. The person who made them had no experience of making sound recordings and the recording machine used was a domestic open-reel mono tape recorder and microphone rather than studio equipment; there can be no doubting the enthusiasm and persuasive powers of the person who made those recordings or the immense amount of trouble to which he went in order to enable them to be made - and the machine was arguably one of the better domestic tape recorders on the market in those days - but the conditions were nothing like those of a professional recording studio. The recordings were made in the composer's music room at his home in a very dry and dead acoustic (the room was full of thick drapes, upholstery and other fabrics). The piano used was his 1896 Steinway C which, though almost ideally suited to much of what he recorded, was even then already in need of a little more technical attention than it had received for a while (it now belongs to The Sorabji Archive and has been hospitalised on a long-term basis in order that a complete overhaul can take place, including a restring, new wrest-plank, new action, etc. - only the soundboard and casework will remain untouched). Finally, the composer himself said after making those recordings (and he reiterated his remarks even two decades later) that all he aimed to do in them was cover the ground of the music in order to give people some idea of what the works actually contained - i.e. a kind of thumbnail illustration rather than anything remotely approaching an authentic performance.

As to obtaining my Grieg Variations, I can supply this direct from The Sorabji Archive - both the score and Donna Amato's recording of it. Please visit my page on The Sorabji Archive website at www.sorabji-archive.co.uk for further information and/or email me for details at sorabji-archive@lineone.net where I will be happy to help.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I didn't really get it how to order from Altarus.

Regretfully, I must advise you that you have failed the intelligence test and do not qualify to listen to this composer.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

You have a special exclusive dispensation from Nils to do that, do you?

No more than you have for pomposity.

Thal

[gep]

Regretfully, I must advise you that you have failed the intelligence test and do not qualify to listen to this composer.

Thal

Hmmm, judging by the amount of slashing and bashing I would think you seem somewhat fearful of the subject "intelligence". I wonder why....

[gep]

Our wise and great British government has yet to introduce compulsory National Identity Cards (though it has threatened to spend zillions of its long-suffering taxpayers' hard-earned money on so doing),

Ours has, for everybody above years of age... Hmm, better not mention the IQ thing, it might get them ideas. Oh joy of man's desire....

[thalbergmad]

Hmmm, judging by the amount of slashing and bashing I would think you seem somewhat fearful of the subject "intelligence". I wonder why....

I am only fearful of idiots who think you need it to appreciate certain composers.

Thal

[ahinton]

No more than you have for pomposity.

For the record (and I'm sorry if I disappoint you), I have no special exclusive dispensations from Nils at all...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Ours has, for everybody above years of age... Hmm, better not mention the IQ thing, it might get them ideas. Oh joy of man's desire....

Aren't there enough Jesus-oriented threads on this forum already without introducing - oh, J S Bach, sorry! My mistake. Mea culpa...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I am only fearful of idiots who think you need it to appreciate certain composers.

You are the one suggesting required IQ levels for this (albeit not with that much seriousness of intent, I suspect). As "gep" implies, if it takes a certain degree of intelligence to create something it is not unlikely that some will be required of the observer of the end result; there is nothing snobbish or exclusivistic about that, unless the person thinking otherwise is confusing intelligence with intellectuality.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

if it takes a certain degree of intelligence to create something it is not unlikely that some will be required of the observer of the end result;

Therefore, to listen to the music of Blind Tom, not a lot of intelligence is required??

Shall we go back to the subject, as you love to say??

Thal

[gep]

I am only fearful of idiots who think you need it to appreciate certain composers.

Thal

Oh, but I won't deny that there are certain composers for who's work one does not need much, or any, intelligence! Or certain writes, politicians, painters, Forum-members,......

Therefore, to listen to the music of Blind Tom, not a lot of intelligence is required??

That would depend on who Blind Tom is. Please enlighten us! For it may very well be that his music indeed needs a lot of intelligence to fully appreciate.
If I may veer back to MTV and the like, I would say that not a lot of intelligence is mandatory.

Shall we go back to the subject, as you love to say??

Yes, let's shall! Opus Archimagicum it was, I think
*checking back*
ah yes. Now, on Mr. Cimirro's site it says a recording may be expected in 2010. That would be quite soon! Thumbs up! (Or down, of course...!)

[thalbergmad]

That would depend on who Blind Tom is. Please enlighten us!

I am sure you have sufficient intelligence to find out for yourself. Perhaps the intelligence required to appreciate Sorabji is less than that needed to use an internet search engine.

If you have any difficulties though, please let me know and i will see what i can do.

Luv

Thal

[communist]

Blind Tom was a 19th century composer and pianist. He was born blind and was sold as a slave. He could play by ear even though he was blind and had given public performances. He has a few compositions even though I am skeptic of the quality.

[ahinton]

Therefore, to listen to the music of Blind Tom, not a lot of intelligence is required??

Shall we go back to the subject, as you love to say??

Thal

Yes, why not? Elliott Carter was once asked what he expected of the audience for the première of the middle movement of his Symphonia - entitled Adagio tenebroso; with the utmost modesty and dignity that the rest of us might arguably have some right to expect of a composer, he simply stated that he hoped (not "expected", mind you) that people would concentrate on what he had done in just the same way as he had had to concentrate when writing the piece. Do you suppose that Alkan or Chopin would have had any different expectations for first hearings of their works? - because I don't!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I am sure you have sufficient intelligence to find out for yourself. Perhaps the intelligence required to appreciate Sorabji is less than that needed to use an internet search engine.

If you have any difficulties though, please let me know and i will see what i can do.

Luv

Thal

As I have pointed out previously, there is a problem for some people in terms of an inability to distinguish between intelligence and intellectuality. Please bear this in mind. Sorabji did not write his work for the unintelligent - but then he also did not write it for those whose principal call to fame is intellectual brilliance. Indeed, he wrote in the first of his letters to me in 1972 that he appreciated people with genuine intelligence - in other words (as he put it) not those intellectuals "educated above their intelligence". For "intelligence", read human sensitivity and understanding. Go away and have a think or three about this, Thal. Sorabji hated those kinds of people who would seek to beat others down with their intellectual brilliance for the sake of so doing, as this had (as he saw it) no conceivable connection with the kind of music that he wrote or the kinds of response that he hoped to elicit from what he had written. He once told me that he valued the responses of people who happened not to be saddled with the poisoned chalice of musical intellectuality.

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

a

[hansscherff]

I think there is a difference between pop-music and popular music (even if the former is used as a short for the latter). I would think someone like André Rieu (if you know him) fits under "popular music", but not under pop-music. I have nothing but respect for Mr. Rieu.
The trash and muck that is almost inescapable today (such as the mentioned MTV, inter alia) I talk about with disdain, yes. Sorry to have a taste...

I think there hardly is a difference, what was pop music in the early 20th century is now referred to as jazz/blues/folk, what was pop music in the 80's is now referred to as glam rock? Gabber was pop music for a while in the 90's. I also have the opinion that what we call classical music was in fact pop music in the time of the composers. Why do you think Chopin wrote waltzes? Not because he particularly liked them, but it sold, people danced on it, it was popular music...

I know André Rieu yes, my father tunes the piano of his sister. Some people in his 'inner circle' frown upon him for not being a top musician, but living the life of one. Of course André Rieu is an above average musician, i'm not in the position to judge his craftmanship. I do know however that his biggest quality is marketing. He knows what people want and like, he popularizes classical music and it sells. You might wonder why André Rieu never performs pieces comparable in character to Sorabji's piano works. I dont, it doesnt sell.

Your remark about you having a taste for NOT liking particular music shows you still havent looked in the mirror. Just because you do not like particular music does not make it distasteful. Just because U2 only needs 5 or 6 chords with a simple melody to entertain millions of people does not make them distasteful, it is their quality. People love a catchy tune like chopin's raindrop prelude, brahms's waltz in Ab or Britney Spear's baby one more time.

I am sure that if you would put as much effort in listening to MTV as you do listening to Sorabji, you would find a lot of catchy tunes you like.

[edwardweiss]

 Why are most/all Sorabji detractors ignoramuses/ignoramii ?

[gep]

I also have the opinion that what we call classical music was in fact pop music in the time of the composers. Why do you think Chopin wrote waltzes? Not because he particularly liked them, but it sold, people danced on it, it was popular music...

I think this is partly true. The difference between what we today percieve as pop music and classical music has perhaps never been greater than today (even though there are still "bridges", like the musical, or "classical" composers using elements of pop(ish) music in their work. Likewise, there are pop musicians who use things from classical music. But I don't think that a piece like Mozart's 40th Symphony was part of the pop music of it's day. Sure, most of what we call classical music today was "practical" music then, for use in the churches, social gatherings, lesson material and such. But even then there was a distinction between what I will call "folk" music for lack of a better term, and "art" music for lack of a better term, even though there were strong ties between the two. One might think of the famous Schubertiades. And indeed quite a few of the "serious" composers earned there living in part or even mostly by writing "sellable" music.

Some people in his 'inner circle' frown upon him for not being a top musician, but living the life of one.

There may be an element of envy in that, I think. So he's not Yehudi Menuhin. But how many famous performers, conductors and such thrive on their name rather then there actual work? The kind of musician who plays/conducts the few famous pieces his name was build on in the early days of their career, but has nothing new to say today?

He knows what people want and like, he popularizes classical music and it sells.

With which I have no problem at all. I have the impression he's at least honest about what he does.

You might wonder why André Rieu never performs pieces comparable in character to Sorabji's piano works. I dont, it doesnt sell.

I do not wonder either, for the reason you wrote. There is nothing wrong with it. He's in that respect comparable to composers from the time until Mozart, who earned their living writing music for their patrons. Writing music their patrons didn't like therefor was unwise. In Rieu's case, one might say the audience at large is his patron.

Your remark about you having a taste for NOT liking particular music shows you still havent looked in the mirror. Just because you do not like particular music does not make it distasteful.

You're confusing things here. With "taste" I mean the result of havings sampled and listened to music as varied as possible, and threfrom accumulating what one likes or dislikes. This is an ongoing process. My taste is therefor the result of such 'work". I don't like Stockhausen, but this does not mean I believe him therefor to be a bad composer. 'His music is just not to my taste. However, I do believe that in the world of popmusic much is marketed and hyped, just as so many other things are. The result thereof I find distasteful, if not often plain vulgar. But then again, such is my opinion. if you like it, you are utterly free to do so; I would find it wrong if you weren't.
I fail to understand what taht has to do with looking in my mirror, though...

I am sure that if you would put as much effort in listening to MTV as you do listening to Sorabji, you would find a lot of catchy tunes you like.

I shudder at the idea of putting that much time and effort into listening to MTV.....
I prefer listening to that music as is to my taste, and exploring things I haven't heard yet, as I would hope everybody else does too.

Why are most/all Sorabji detractors ignoramuses/ignoramii ?

Because quite a few people are put off by the new and unknown, I guess.

[ahinton]

Why are most/all Sorabji enthusiasts weirdos

On what specific evidence do you seek to suggest that they are?

Best,

Alistair

[healdie]

Why are most/all Sorabji detractors ignoramuses/ignoramii ?

i smell an argument on this one

[gep]

Why are most/all Sorabji enthusiasts weirdos

i smell an argument on this one

Well, according to the pianist Ian Pace all "Sorabji enthusiasts" are part fo "an extreme right wing clique of disciples", and Sorabji himself a "composer of fascist music".

Perhaps that explains?

[ahinton]

i smell an argument on this one

I don't. Nor do I propose to instigate or encourage one.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well, according to the pianist Ian Pace all "Sorabji enthusiasts" are part fo "an extreme right wing clique of disciples", and Sorabji himself a "composer of fascist music".

Perhaps that explains?

What it explains is that Mr Ian Pace has made certain remarks along such lines which, to the best of my knowledge, he has omitted to justify with any kind of proof and I therefore humbly submit that his remarks should - and indeed can only - be read in that context. I can only add, for the sake of clarity (I hope), that, as in so many other cases (some of which I have witnessed on this forum), when someone claims that "everyone" in a certain category has something else in common, it is always the case that the person making such assertions has not actually communicated beforehand with "everyone" in the said category, so that person can in actuality have no idea what their other allegiances may be.

Heil - er - um - Heilige Dankgesang - how about that?...

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

What it explains is that Mr Ian Pace has made certain remarks along such lines which, to the best of my knowledge, he has omitted to justify with any kind of proof and I therefore humbly submit that his remarks should - and indeed can only - be read in that context. I can only add, for the sake of clarity (I hope), that, as in so many other cases (some of which I have witnessed on this forum), when someone claims that "everyone" in a certain category has something else in common, it is always the case that the person making such assertions has not actually communicated beforehand with "everyone" in the said category, so that person can in actuality have no idea what their other allegiances may be.

Heil - er - um - Heilige Dankgesang - how about that?...

Best,

Alistair

Of course, my remark was to be taken not so much cum granum salis, but more cum saccus salis, as you no doubt understood!

Now perhaps indeed some more of Heiliger Dankgesang eines Genesenen an die Bachheit.

[hansscherff]

You're confusing things here. With "taste" I mean the result of havings sampled and listened to music as varied as possible, and threfrom accumulating what one likes or dislikes. This is an ongoing process. My taste is therefor the result of such 'work". I don't like Stockhausen, but this does not mean I believe him therefor to be a bad composer. 'His music is just not to my taste. However, I do believe that in the world of popmusic much is marketed and hyped, just as so many other things are. The result thereof I find distasteful, if not often plain vulgar. But then again, such is my opinion. if you like it, you are utterly free to do so; I would find it wrong if you weren't.
I fail to understand what taht has to do with looking in my mirror, though...

I'm only quoting this part because i think we mostly agree on the rest.
Perhaps i'm the one confusing things, that could be true. The way you explained yourself towards popular music in the quoted section however differs in attitude from your earlier statements. In fact that same attitude is what Sorabji wrote about according to Alistair. That attitude is in my opinion a far bigger issue for classical music than its old age. Perhaps you did not intend it to be read that way, but thats how it came across.

I would like to leave it at this though, back to posting 0,014 posts a day for me.

Hans

[gep]

If I have been confusing, that I regret that. Please understand that it is never easy to express your feelings in writing (at least for me), and that I have to do so here in a language that is not my own.

Perhaps I can clearify something about my feelings about pop music by using two examples mentioned earlier on by someone else.
Mention was made of U2. I know that group, and I think they are "real " musicians in the sense that they make music. I.e., they have talent, originality, etc, and aim to make music. To like their music or not is a matter of taste. I don't like it, which is my taste. Mention was also made of Britney Spears. That is a different matter. Appreciation of her "work" is I think mainly based on the hormonal reaction to the way she undulates across the screen this time. Mainly made up of "artificial additives". Music is certainly not the main issue here. I could mention Gangsta (c)rap here too as another example. To me at least this kind of junk is tasteless, not just a matter of taste.

If I may use an example from  another subject that will interest perhaps nobody: erotica and pornography may be "about" the same thing, but the former can be quite tasteful, the latter is only tasteless. The difference is that between using a feather and using a whole chicken.

[pies]

a