Mozart...

[alessandro]

Excuse me, dear forumeers,
(I think I start most of my posts with an excuse for interrupting: it's just that I'm here -again - with a question)...

Mozart.

Never had a particular attraction to his music (though as a person I think Mozart is more pleasant).  But now that I watched yesterday Maria Joao Pirez playing Mozart Sonata 'Jeunehomme' I was again thinking at 'what makes his music so attractive and so popular'.  I can't hear anything besides joy and a particular talent for ear-catching melodies.  Now two things that I heared a few times tickle my curiosity.  It's the second one that is the most important for me right now.  (I would like to learn something, piano solo.)  I heard that there is (are ?) one (more ?) piece that has a blackness, deep grief in it.  Which one is it ? (Could be a concerto, so nothing very suitable but just out of curiosity...)  Is there a piece that is a little "different" from spirit as I tend to think 'in general' about his work.   So, in short, is there a nice rather "deep" (dark) piece for piano solo, and/or what could be a nice but "special" first encounter' ?
Thanks a lot dear forumeers.
It is again such a joy in this Street.

P.S. : Thalbergmad, I think Niels Johan already did put some wine in the fridge to celebrate your 10000th post.

[m19834]

Well, there is his Fantasy in d minor, K397 -- about a grade 6 according to this site.  And then, there is the Fantasy and Sonata in c minor, K 475 and K 457.  The Fantasy and Sonata in C minor are an 'undertaking', at least they were for me, and are meant to be played together though they are played separately as well.  Also, there is the Concerto in d minor, no 20 I believe -- very cool, in my opinion.

[Petter]

The empfindsamkeit traits like in the Amajor piano concerto Adagio movement

and Sturm und Drang stuff like the 25th symphony

and the D minor concerto

Any of these?

[thalbergmad]

Mozart.

Never had a particular attraction to his music

I could listen to a few of his concertos all day, but i have never had the same love for his sonatas.

Being always keen to experiment, i can find more joy with Dussek, Clementi, Eberl & Woelfl.

Thal

[communist]

both G Minor symphonies.

[webern78]

Being always keen to experiment, i can find more joy with Dussek, Clementi, Eberl & Woelfl.

Thal

Then it's obvious you have zero taste in music.

[thalbergmad]

Then it's obvious you have zero taste in music.

Untrue, but i do have zero tolerance with snobs.

Thal

[iumonito]

Among the concertos, the C Minor one, in my opinion, is the darkest and most violent.

Beyond that, the examples are too many, but if you are short in time and patience, the Requiem, Don Giovanni and the C Minor Mass should blow out of the water any misconception you may have about Mozart's tempestuous side.  When Mozart goes dark, he goes way darker than Beethoven ever did.  Mozart had some serious deamons to deal with.

...and by the way, I suspect the other nicety you are entirely missing is Mozart's expansiveness and hsi ability to join seamlessly the most outrageously disparate things.  The examples, again, are too many, but sufice it to say that you need to know in advance something is witty when Mozart has two orchestras playing at the same time, one in triple and one in duple time.

[alessandro]

Oh, already many thanks for the examples.
I just printed out the Fantasy K397, will start learning in tonight or tomorrow.  Hope to discover Mozart's 'darker' side very soon.

Very funny to notice that Thalbergmad (again) couldn't avoid getting a remark with his rather serious contribution to this thread.  I feel compassion for him.

Have a nice day everybody.
 

[birba]

Mozart.

Never had a particular attraction to his music 

Neither did Gould, despite the fact that he did record a few of his sonatas.

[thalbergmad]

Very funny to notice that Thalbergmad (again) couldn't avoid getting a remark with his rather serious contribution to this thread.  I feel compassion for him.
 

Thank you.

I was actually being serious for once, and i still get mugged.

I do not deny the genius of Mozart, but i do hope that some on this forum will one day investigate some of the forgotten composers, as there are some rather nice sonatas to be found.

My feeble fingers were playing a sonata by Eberl the other night, and the music was rather devine, even under my hands.

Thal

[gep]

I do not deny the genius of Mozart, but i do hope that some on this forum will one day investigate some of the forgotten composers, as there are some rather nice sonatas to be found.

Like Sorabji's...

But serious, this is a very true remark, and not just about Sonatas only. There is so much to find of great beauty and interest "in the fringe". I like delving in the libraries' catalogue for such treasures. We have 10,000 recordings of Mozart, and the amount of Four Seasons must have gone critical by now . Surely there are CD companies who would want to delve in something else too??

[birba]

Sure, as long as it pays...

[webern78]

There is so much to find of great beauty and interest "in the fringe".

Such as?

[thalbergmad]

Woelfl Sonata Op33
Dussek Sonata Op77
Burgmuller Sonata Op8
Nicolai Sonata

The list could go on for ever, but if your mind is already closed, it would be wasted on you.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Like Sorabji's...

HEHE, but i do not really think he is that forgotten now.

Thal

[anne126]

Neither did Gould, despite the fact that he did record a few of his sonatas.

He recorded all of them, including the fantasias and the 24th concerto. He certainly did have an attraction! To spend so much time learning all of those pieces!

In my opinion, Mozart's minor key pieces are unsurpassed by any other "classical" era composer. The "attraction" of Mozart comes from familiarity with the pieces. I've studied Haydn, Clementi, Dussek, and Mozart sonatas. Mozart's sonatas, for me, were always much more fulfilling to learn. Intellectually, aesthetically, and musically.

Edit:

To answer the creator of the topic... You might want to play through some of this piece. :)

Adagio in B minor 540
https://imslp.org/wiki/Adagio_for_Piano,_K.540_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)

[webern78]

He recorded all of them, including the fantasias and the 24th concerto. He certainly did have an attraction! To spend so much time learning all of those pieces!

Supposedly, he recorded them precisely to demonstrate how bad the music was. Gould was an idiot. A fine pianist perhaps, but an idiot nonetheless. 

In my opinion, Mozart's minor key pieces are unsurpassed by any other "classical" era composer.

Why only the minor pieces? That to me seems to bespeak of emotional immaturity. I've even met people who preferred the little symphony in g over the Jupiter on account of its outward sentimentality (most definitely not for its purported depth).

[anne126]

Supposedly, he recorded them precisely to demonstrate how bad the music was.

?

Supposedly?

Unless you can provide some kind of evidence to substantiate that, I have difficulty believing that he would go through the process of recording some 25 pieces simply to demonstrate "how bad the music was". Mind you, we're talking now about Mozart. That is not say that every Mozart piece is a gift from God, and should be praised sans cessation, but as far as his piano sonatas are concerned, it is extremely difficult to argue how any of Mozart's sonatas are "bad". Compositionally, they are some of the most exceptional pieces of the "classical" form.

"Why only the minor pieces? That to me seems to bespeak of emotional immaturity"

I'm not sure what this means exactly. Citing my opinion is somehow emotionally immature? The minor pieces are emotionally immature? All of this is absolutely subjective anyway.

The minor pieces (of which he composed few) are exceedingly creative, and certainly, emotionally, closer to the nerves than many other "classical era" compositions. This is my opinion.

"I've even met people who preferred the little symphony in g over the Jupiter on account of its outward sentimentality (most definitely not for its purported depth)."

If ever you must know, I prefer the Jupiter Symphony to Symphony No. 40.

Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[weissenberg2]

Supposedly, he recorded them precisely to demonstrate how bad the music was. Gould was an idiot. A fine pianist perhaps, but an idiot nonetheless. 

Why only the minor pieces? That to me seems to bespeak of emotional immaturity. I've even met people who preferred the little symphony in g over the Jupiter on account of its outward sentimentality (most definitely not for its purported depth).

Gould was not an idiot, he was just weird.     

[thalbergmad]

I have no taste.

Gould is an idiot.

[michel dvorsky]

I have no taste.

Gould is an idiot.

Yeah, one of the very greatest pianists, interpreters, recording artists, and musicians of the of the century was an "idiot".

The man just didn't like most of the sonatas so made a mockery of them.  Unlike most terrible recordings, Gould's Mozart sonata recordings are willfully terrible but technically jaw-dropping so imo are immensely entertaining despite being tasteless.  The man was an enfant terrible. 

Btw, in fairness to Gould his early k330 is GORGEOUS - almost as colorful as Horowitz in Moscow.  His C minor concerto recording is also superb.  The early Mozart sonatas from his studio recordings are also not so bad.

[opus10no2]

Woelfl Sonata Op33
Dussek Sonata Op77
Burgmuller Sonata Op8
Nicolai Sonata

The list could go on for ever, but if your mind is already closed, it would be wasted on you.

Thal

Yes. Mozart was a genius, Haydn was a genius, but there were so many others.

The orchestral works of Kraus are treasures..

[anne126]

Ack! Kraus! I haven't heard any of his pieces in ages. His "Sinfonia da Chiesa in D major" is wonderful.

I find his pieces to be much more middle period Haydn-esque, than Mozartian.

Indeed there are a great many composers besides Haydn and Mozart, that composed is such a similar style, that are incredible. Nevertheless, I always find myself persuaded by Haydn's string quartets and late sonatas and Mozart's concerti and symphonies in the end.