Pianoteq software + cheaper digital piano = v-piano =)

[Derek]

Anyone else tried Pianoteq? I got the demo version recently, and posted a couple of improvisations exported by Pianoteq...it is absolutely stunning! From what I can tell, this is similar technology to the V-piano...it is real time modeling of a piano, rather than sampling, and it actually sounds more realistic than sampling!

So what I'm doing now is, I'm running my Roland F-100 digital piano (one of the low end ones, but pretty good for the price) to my laptop with a MIDI to USB cable... then I have Pianoteq running for the sound. Then I run the sound out of my laptop into the speakers of my digital piano---and presto, I have a piano that sounds as great as  v-piano for a fraction of the price!

One problem I had to contend with was midi latency. There was a very noticable delay between the keyboard action and hearing it on my laptop. After a little research, I discovered the ASIO driver. Apparently this intercepts the operating system's sound monitoring software and does it more directly by modifying the buffer size. This appears to have eliminated the latency (well, there's still a tiny delay, but it is so small as to be forgivable), so now it is as though I upgraded my Roland F-100 to a v-piano type machine for only a few hundred dollars.

Actually I haven't got the full version of pianoteq yet but I'm planning to!

Here's Hugh Sung talking about pianoteq:

[yuc4h]

The downside is the fact that it inevitably has latency. Even 20-100 milliseconds are enough to disturb the touch/sound connection.

[Derek]

As I mentioned in the OP, I was able to reduce that latency drastically. I'm certain it is much less than 20 ms, in fact I'd be surprised if it was 5 ms. If you turn on my piano's sound while also playing through the laptop with pianoteq, the delay is almost imperceptible (while using the ASIO sound driver).

[yuc4h]

Sorry didn't notice that you already said it. However, I have already tried pianoteq with my roland rd700-gx and I like the sampled roland pianos way more. That's why I doubt it sounds even nearly as good as the v-piano :­D

[Derek]

Maybe you have a higher end roland than me, I have a lowly Roland F-100. The sampled sounds are okay...but pianoteq is a huge step up soundwise for me that's for sure.

[yuc4h]

Pianoteq does contain an awesome honky tonk piano sound preset however :­)

[Derek]

I was able to reduce the latency yet further after a bit more research about the issue. The ASIO sound driver was the biggest step in that direction, and then I was able to finagle the settings a bit to reduce it more. I increased the sample rate to 48khz, and the buffer size to 256 samples (5.3 ms). It was originally 512 samples (reported as 10.7 ms). It's damn near perfect now. Sounds like the Roland has Pianoteq on board!

When I turn on both the Roland's sound and pianoteq's sound, there's still a very slight detectible latency in the higher notes. For some reason, it becomes imperceptible in the middle to lower range of the piano, where I tend to like to play the most anyway.  I wonder if this is due to the progressive hammer action keyboard of the Roland. Perhaps the heavier hammers fire off a MIDI event at a different time than do the lighter hammers in the upper register. I wonder if this would affect latency or if that is purely psychological?

[Derek]

yuc4h,  have you tried pianoteq 3.0 specifically? I'm under the impression it is significantly better than pianoteq 2.x...

[yuc4h]

I have only tried 2.3. Guess I have to do some research about the 3.0. I have a latency of 3-4ms with my e-mu 0404 asio and I have noticed it to be inperceptible across the entire keyboard. It might have something to do with the keyboard mechanism or maybe the upper notes can't hide the latency with their sound as well as the lower ones.

[lhorwinkle]

Latency has nothing to do with the piano. Windows causes the latency.

ASIO was Steinberg's way of getting around the latency problem, but the solution is not completely effective.

I'm told that Windows Vista does not have the problem.

[yuc4h]

Latency has nothing to do with the piano. Windows causes the latency.

ASIO was Steinberg's way of getting around the latency problem, but the solution is not completely effective.

I'm told that Windows Vista does not have the problem.

Latency has nothing to do with windows, I have vista64 and it has absolutely zero effect on midi latency. Using asio, you can bypass the effect of directsound filters and OS completely. That's why the only thing that makes any difference in latency is the quality of your sound card and the speed of your cpu. If latency varies across the keyboard, then the problem has to be on the keyboard itself unless you are implying that midi messages of higher notes take more clock cycles to process than lower ones...

[Derek]

I think it is just the hammer sound where I'm hearing the latency. If I turn off the hammer sound in pianoteq, it sounds the same across the whole keyboard. The hammer sound is more "knocky" sounding in the higher notes, just like on a real grand.

[brucem]

Latency has nothing to do with windows, I have vista64 and it has absolutely zero effect on midi latency. Using asio, you can bypass the effect of directsound filters and OS completely. That's why the only thing that makes any difference in latency is the quality of your sound card and the speed of your cpu. If latency varies across the keyboard, then the problem has to be on the keyboard itself unless you are implying that midi messages of higher notes take more clock cycles to process than lower ones...

Most of us still have Windows XP. It's sound processing architecture causes most of the latency. ASIO (Steinberg) was created 10 years ago to bypass the problem.

You say that you're running Windows Vista. That's why you don't have the problem. Microsoft wisely changed the architecture to solve the latency problem.

[napoleonspidgin]

Most of us still have Windows XP. It's sound processing architecture causes most of the latency. ASIO (Steinberg) was created 10 years ago to bypass the problem.

You say that you're running Windows Vista. That's why you don't have the problem. Microsoft wisely changed the architecture to solve the latency problem.

I run Native Instruments Akoustic Piano on Windows XP without latency issues.  The root problem is not the operating system, it's a combination of soundcard sampling rates + processing power + RAM.  If any system is strong in those areas you can kiss noticeable latency goodbye.

[rob_the_dude]

Pianoteq is great, you just need a good computer

Latency can also be down to the keyboard as well. I was reading a soundcontrol review of my Kawai MP8 and one of the downsides was the poor latency through the midi/usb connection.

Just a thought

Rob

[yuc4h]

At the moment I am using something way better than Pianoteq. It's called Synthogy Ivory. It requires a fast hard-drive and loads of ram to function well but it's a lot better than anything else on the market. Seems that the modelled pianos are still not up to the standard of finest sampled pianos. Derek, if you still haven't bought the pianoteq you might want to check the samples at https://www.synthogy.com/products/ivorygrand.html

[rob_the_dude]

I said soundcontrol but i meant sound on sound  x

[lhorwinkle]

At the moment I am using something way better than Pianoteq. It's called Synthogy Ivory. It requires a fast hard-drive and loads of ram to function well but it's a lot better than anything else on the market. Seems that the modelled pianos are still not up to the standard of finest sampled pianos. Derek, if you still haven't bought the pianoteq you might want to check the samples at https://www.synthogy.com/products/ivorygrand.html

I'm a bit late to this party, but ...

I use Ivory. It's wonderful. It sounds like a piano. I love it.

[pianomaninoc]

I have PianoTeq, and I have personally tried Roland's V-Piano and tweaked some of the modeling set-ups and characteristics. It's stunningly amazing, without equal. Sorry, there's actually no comparison whatsoever. (It's like saying I picked up a plastic toy "dinosaur"-shaped piano and I want to compare it to a Steinway.)

What you can do with the modeling capabilities built into the V-Piano is beyond compare. Yamaha, Steinway, Ivory, PianoTeq, Garrisan, or any other sampled piano (or even REAL piano) will never sound as good for performance and/or recording purposes.

While the V-Piano is not that easy to move around, it's a heck of a lot more so that a grand piano, and a whole lot more versatile. If there was one keyboard in the whole world I could have, it would be the Roland V-Piano. I'd even take it over a Steinway or Bosendorfer full grand (unless I could sell them and buy a few V-Pianos!).

If you've never actually sat down at a V-Piano and spent some time with it, you really ought to. It's the most impressive piano in the world. I especially love changing it to a 9-foot grand, with triple-strings made out of all silver, then  re-shaping some of the hammer felt and sounds.