How to Discipline?

[meli]

Hi everyone. I am quite a new teacher (about 2 years). I recently gave a trial lesson to 2 students (aged 10 and 7). They were very talkative, active and had lots of energy, and even banged away on the keyboard, while I talked. They basically couldn't sit still! The 7 year old even swayed back and forth on the seat, pretending to fall back! Its got me irritated a few times, and I even told them to 'stop it' but they don't care. They are wonderful and fun students, but I hate it when they just climb over me! Any advice from teachers who know how to handle this behaviour? Do you teachers set rules for appropriate behaviour in the lesson? I got a shock when my previous teacher told me that they didn't behave this way with her!! (they are transfer students).

[lostinidlewonder]

Don't say things like "stop it" because they might treat it like a joke and game instead of being embarrassed from being naughty. Or just look at them while they are being silly and say nothing for a moment and when they stop you ask them, are you ready to learn some piano? Or you say, "Come on", or "Quickly now!" trying to put some emphasis on the short time you have left together. Say lets try to do this little bit then we will be finished for today.

It can be very hard to teach young kids that are not well behaved. I think these type of beginners are the hardest students you can possibly teach so don't feel too bad! Just don't let the monsters crawl over you! Bribe with lollies, that can often control the beasts

[go12_3]

I had a 7 year old student with an attitude during her lessons.  For several weeks, I put up with her behavior;  I did fun activities and bribed  her and she was okay, until it got to the point,  her behavior was not what I expected.  She knew the notes and acted like she didn't know anything; and then I didn't enjoy teaching her.  So I contacted the mother to discuss her daughter's behavior to see if that would help(this mom used to sit in during the lessons too)and  that I would teach only her son(he behaved very well and was 9 years old) instead.  Well, this mom got offended and exploded ;  I instantly lost 2 students. 

I get leary when it comes to *young* students and I feel it is the parent's responsibility to support the teacher's request about  the student's behavior. And yet, it is hard to make an issue about a child's behavior because it then can offend the parent which happened to me.   I had to realize that it is between the teacher and the student to set up the boundaries.   I have learned my lesson , do not discuss students' behaviors to the parent because the parent thinks their children are wonderful!     

My youngest student is 7  years old and behaves because she wants to learn to play piano.  I was wondering about the age factor, but not all children act up in lessons.  Another thing I would do when a student acts up is walk away and pick up a magazine and read.   Or do a lesson without the piano, do reading the notes on the floor so some activity that off sets them and gets their interests right away.  Do the unexpected.  See what they would do. Children are curious and will adapt to any kind of situations,  and they are clever and know how to push your buttons.  Just keep firm during lessons, but if your students continues to act up, I would quit teaching them. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[timothy42b]

Hi everyone. I am quite a new teacher (about 2 years). I recently gave a trial lesson to 2 students (aged 10 and 7). They were very talkative, active and had lots of energy, and even banged away on the keyboard, while I talked.

Couple of thoughts.

You had two at the same time?  Bad move, at that age.  And at your skill level.

You were talking.  Why?  Serious question.  At that age, they aren't learning while you're talking.  They learn when they play, they learn when you play, they drift off when you talk.

Finally, I try to remember never say no.  But not like it seems!  I never say don't do this, I always say now do this.  If you just think for a moment, there is always a command you can give for something they should do, and while they're doing that they are not doing what you don't want.  Almost always, anyway. 

Don't play with flat fingers.

  You'll get a dumb look. 

Play with curved fingers, like this.

  Now they know what you want.  See what I mean?  Actually that's six words, better to use three words with a 7 year old. 

Play like this.

[giannalinda]

I dont know. Sorry!!!

[berniano]

Ask questions incessantly! And do lots of duets. Play for them, show them the other aspects of the piano (pedal, hammers, strings, even lid, etc.), anything to keep their interest going. Above all, don't let them see your frustration... I've learned this the hard way... or they will take advantage of that. I like to make it a big game, especially if I've got siblings who are at the same level-- this can encourage competition to get pieces learned first, and thus push for progress (even though they also usually have their individual special pieces. You've got to make it fun and think like a kid, becuase in this day and age-- kids just aren't trained to sit. And parents often aren't going to change this for a piano teacher. You get the kids and your on your own. Oh, and one other trick: have a prize box, or some sort of reward system so that they can earn either a small prize for each assignment they complete, or something bigger after they've completed a series of assignments. One teacher I knew of used a "piano points" system. The students had to learn and memorize pieces, write composer and repertoire reports, do recitals, practice daily, etc. until they earned enough points to earn a prize like a comic book, stickers, even hermit crabs (w/parents approval) of course. This teacher considered it worth the cost to make her life easier I guess.

Oh my, teaching little kids takes a whole different teaching style from teaching highschool/college students. However... I wonder how much greater progress would these older students produce for the same incentives    LOL!!

Don't give up and good luck-- we all need it

Berniano

[dan101]

If a student is extremely disrespectful, I IMMEDIATELY become extremely calm and mention that we may have to stop lessons... and we'll have to have a chat with their parents. It's not really a bluff, and students usually get the message loud an clear.

[go12_3]

If a student is extremely respectful, I IMMEDIATELY become extremely calm and mention that we may have to stop lessons... and we'll have to have a chat with their parents. It's not really a bluff, and students usually get the message loud an clear.

In my experience, students don't even care if lessons stop.  I called a parent of a misbehaved student, a 7 year old girl, and the parent got defensive and stopped lessons.  So that may not be a good idea in some cases.  Or perhaps the teacher wants to quit teaching the student.  

[nanabush]

I'm looking through my syllabus for the RCM system (in Canada), and for the Teacher's diploma, you need elementary, intermediate and advanced teaching exams completed.  The basic one is largely based on teaching beginners; you need to be able to teach beginner pieces to the examiner, and discuss how to approach teaching students at this level.  I can't understand how they associate a beginner teacher with teaching beginners - if anything, teaching a young kid from scratch and creating lesson plans to keep the child interested/motivated is MUCH more difficult than teaching an intermediate student who has already developped their own preferences for the layout of lessons.

I wouldn't touch that 'elementary' portion of the exam with a ten foot pole. 

[jbrem123]

When it comes to elementary school kids and music lessons, it's all about making it fun for the child.  Learning is still the goal, but it can help to disguise it in some sort of game or activity.  For instance, I teach drum lessons as well as piano lessons, and with my young drum students I created this activity called "Beat Workshop" where the students get to create their own beats with my help.  This distracts them from the complex task understanding rhythm by letting them create what they want.  Also, we do listening exercises.  This is where I play beats on the drumset and the student has to write it out on the page.  This seems to work miraculously.  The students really enjoy it and it forces them to learn!

[gracehaven]

Although my younger students typically have the behavior you describe, I've even had an 11-year-old do the same thing.  Shocking, I know.  With the older one (who seriously acts like a teenager), if that student is not willing to work, I tell her that the lesson is over (even if it's only been 5 minutes) and it's time for her brother's lesson (who is 8-years-old) and LOVES to work at the piano.
This seems to be a great motivator for the 11-year-old.  Why should her little brother get all the time with the piano teacher?  Doesn't seem fair (in this particular case) in her mind, so she gets her act together and at the next lesson, she works longer than 5 minutes.

For my younger students who act up during lessons, it is crucial that I have many more things planned in advance for them (piano games, off-the-bench games, music activities, etc.) than I think we will be able to accomplish in a 30- or 45-minute lesson.  I have those things stacked up, in order I want to play them (or written out), so I can easily go from one thing to the next the second the youngster diverts his attention from where I want it.  Being prepared and staying one step ahead of him is the name of the game, but it takes work outside of the lesson.  There are some terrific piano teacher websites out there where you can print out some great games for this age group.  It will mean printing, cutting, sometimes going to the copy store to get things laminated, and keeping all of your games organized so you can find what you're looking for in a flash, but it is worth it to have all those things on hand in an instant.  A few examples:

Colorful cards for direction (up & down; high & low; etc.)
Colorful cards for note names (letter names; lines & spaces; etc.)
Dice games (intervals; chord types; scales; etc.)
Stepping and skipping
Finding the beat/pulse
Tic-tac-toe games
Key signature games
Music Yahtzee

Good luck!

[go12_3]

In my experience in teaching the young 6-7 years old, it seems that lessons is all about play time and putting forth so much energy into keeping their attention.  I made a decision not to teach such young students because of the discipline issues and putting forth the extra effort.  So that's my philosophy,  each teacher has their own unique agenda. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[amanfang]

A couple thoughts on this:

Don't be afraid to establish your authority, especially if you are a young teacher.  When I first started teaching, I was insecure about what I was doing.  Furthermore, I was very concerned that the students like me and stay with lessons.  I mean, I needed the money and didn't want students to get a bad impression of me.  I think the students will pick up on that and use it to start to control the lesson.  Don't let this happen.  It really is ok to be firm.  You can use "the look," you can use a firm voice, or whatever.  It's ok.

Recently I have had a student who has decided to cry/tantrum every lesson when I ask her to do something she doesn't want to do.  (This is a much longer story and there are lot of factors I won't go into now.)  At one point she was crying and wailed "BUT I DON'T WANT TO PLAY!!"  I used my firm voice and said "You may NOT raise your voice with me!"  She kind of sat up, stopped crying, and did what I asked. 

Other things I have tried with other students:

1.  Points for candy - point sheet on the piano where they can see it, candy on the piano where they can see it.  Every time they do what I ask, they get a point.  If they start doing something I don't want them to do, they lose a point.  For 10 points (or however many), they can have 5 skittles. 

2.  Pre-planned list of activities for the lessons - prize (candy) if we get through all of it.  Generally if they're goofing off, they will not have time to get through everything.

On that note, it is important to also remember that if you are using this method with rewards, they do not need to get it if they don't deserve it.  Even if a sibling gets it, they don't need to have it "for the sake of equality" if they didn't behave.

3.  Talk to the parents.  Find out what strategies for behavior work at school/home.  Invite the parent into lessons until undesired behavior stops.  Tell the student that when the behavior is better, they can have a private lesson without parents.

[go12_3]

This candy thing is beyond me, really.   I feel that sincere praise for my students in doing a fine
job during their lessons is reward enough.   The only time of year my students get candy is at Halloween , and Christmas.  I use stickers to put in their assignment books as another form of reward, but on occasion when I feel they are progressing.

best wishes,

go12_3

[amanfang]

This candy thing is beyond me, really.   I feel that sincere praise for my students in doing a fine
job during their lessons is reward enough.   The only time of year my students get candy is at Halloween , and Christmas.  I use stickers to put in their assignment books as another form of reward, but on occasion when I feel they are progressing.

best wishes,

go12_3

I hope your students show progress more than only occasionally...

Ok seriously, no I'm not handing out candy to my students every week.  But if I did, so what?  Some kids are motivated by different things.  For some, it might take more than "sincere praise."  For the summer I'm doing a summer contest - students get points for practicing as well as doing additional things.  When they get a certain number of points, they can guess how many candies are in my jar.  At the end of the summer, the closest guesser will win, and the one with the most points will win something else.  For a higher number of points, they can get a treat.  Out of the 8 or so students participating in this summer contest, probably about half of them are practicing consistently and doing extra things for points.  The others like guessing how many are in the jar, but won't really do anything extra for it. 

My apologies for the rabbit trail - all I'm saying is that it may take some experimenting with different methods of both positive and negative reinforcement to get the behavior you want in lessons while simultaneously maintaining interest/motivation.

[go12_3]

I hope your students show progress more than only occasionally...

Ok seriously, no I'm not handing out candy to my students every week.  But if I did, so what?  Some kids

What , each student has their own unique way of *progressing* by the way.  And each in their own postive way.

[elba508]

 I've handled kids ranging from 4 to 6 years old and above but that particular age range(4 to 6) are the ones really difficult to handle when it comes to discipline. In my experience, you have to deal with them in a positive way...not at all sternly...of course being firm would also prove beneficial during times when all methods or means to get their attention would be futile and useless..but not all the time and it (being firm) should be done at the right time and with utmost care, so as not to present a negative picture of you as a teacher. Most of the time, you have to deal with them like you're in a kid's world. You've got to find out what kind of games  they play, what TV series they enjoy most....EVERYTHING that a kid in this present day and age is into.  That would give you enough things to talk about with them and gain their attention. And then once the attention is there, you sort of insert the music lessons you want them to learn. Once you get them to listen to you and gain their interest, reward them with stickers (esp. the ones with characters they like on TV or in the movies, like Disney films for instance..) Anything that would catch their fancy....you can also give out pencils, or candies with the favorite movie characters on them like Spiderman, Ariel (the Little Mermaid), Belle (Beauty and the Beast) etc. etc. There are a lot of things they are really interested in that would help you gain their attention ...and of course being a kid, they would love it if their music lesson would just be like playing a game..something they would enjoy not to be intimidated with.s

[slobone]

OK, I'm a non-teacher so my opinion is probably worthless.

But it seems to me that if you have to distract kids with candy, tours of the piano, games, etc., something is already seriously wrong. I started lessons at age 8, and none of my teachers would ever have dreamed of doing anything like that. They were all tyrants of whom I lived in fear.

Granted that's a long time ago, but I still think that's the only way to get kids that age to focus and pay attention. They have to be afraid of the consequences if they don't work hard. Of course, if you get a student with a really good attitude, you can relax a little.

By consequences, I don't mean hitting or yelling, but just the pregnant silence and the quiet stern voice. Any teacher needs to know how to do that. Obviously if you reduce the kid to tears you've gone too far...

If the kids won't pay attention to you when you're standing right there, can you imagine what their practice time is like? With these kids who aren't used to discipline, you can be sure the parents are indulgent and useless when it comes to getting the kids to practice.

Think about your own experience. If you're good enough to be a teacher, you probably had a very serious attitude from a very early age.

Piano is a lot harder than almost anything these kids will do, and if they can't take it seriously, they're never going to get anywhere. You're really not doing them a favor by letting them think that lesson time is play time...

[mcdiddy1]

The best way to deal with unruly kids is not to feed in to what they want. They want to get attention. You don't have to involve parents. The problem is the kids do not know what the rules are, what is expected of them and what the consequences are. We as teachers get mad when they misbehave but often we dont take the time to be proactive and say what we want first. Get their attention by having them give you eye contact and do not continue until they are all looking at you. Go right up to them and get right in their face if you need to. Just have a calm and stern tone voice and say something like " I am glad to see that you have so much excitement to be in music class. Now it is time to learn how to......"
           If they continue to act up, stop and come up with new rules like no whining, or talking out of turn and explain why the rules are the way they are.
            The biggest thing is to catch them doing something right and shower them with praise. Give attention to the students that do the right thing. You do not need to bribe them, all kids want is to be approved off, either by you or by your peers. When you get their peers to behave and that becomes the desired behavior, they will compete with their peers for your approval to.
            Don't allow your self to raise your voice or show any emotion toward misbehavior. Just act nonchalant about it and unimpressed by it. Your students will only do what you allow them to get away with. Get to know them personally and love them unconditionally and seperate the misbehaviors you don't like from the children.

[lostinidlewonder]

I currently teach a student who has ADD and has really terrible attention. He comes into a lesson simply sit at the piano and start playing whatever he likes non stop. If I tell him to stop, he will stop then start fidgeting looking around the room and not listening to what I have to say, or pretend to be listening to me (where he is just waiting for me to finish talking so he can start playing the piano again).

Each and every individual has positives in their learning capabilities and negatives. As teachers we have to know how to identify these in our students. With students with ADD I always let them focus on the piano any way that works for them. With this young boy I teach I let him walk into the lesson and simply play. While he plays I correct his mistakes and technical inefficiencies, but the way it works is very different to other students. With other students I will go over the small section in the correct manner, we will test it out until we are confident with it, we notice how it changes how we did it before somewhat,  then move on. With the ADD student I will correct them, ensure that they make some attempt at changing the way they do it, but I will not ask them to repeat too many times to confirm that they know it. Even the 1st repetition to alter their method requires a lot of focus on their behalf, doing multiple repetition simply has a very high exponentially decreasing effect on the student learning.

The changes have some sort of physical action associated with it, or shape, we say strange things to prompt their memory to correct their fingers. Like I say (crab walking) when there is a small interval 15 fingering movement to shift the hand on the keyboard, or if it is a 23 fingering I say POKE ITS EYES OUT. 13 flick it, 12 pinch it!! Different shapes, one of my ADD students said that a shape of the chord looked like a Rhombus so every time he had to do that I would say RHOMBUS!!! It is a really wacky way to do a lesson but it works for the student. He can watch his hands move in a certain way and associate some word with it or physical movement.

With students with bad attention I often do not care if they do not play perfectly, so long I can see some change towards improvement. For instance when I ask them to see a pattern in their music, I request that they explain to me what the pattern looks like, can they see the pattern as they play? While they play I will explain the pattern in short words or physical movement which prompts their memory. I will merely ask them at the end, did you feel that pattern while you played? We will write the main memory prompts down so that the student (or parents) can remind themselves while they practice alone.

[bats_about_belfreys]

Some really great suggestions. I particuarly loved the idea of dice games for intervals (ta, graceheaven) while acknowledging that if games and candy are the only recourse, then things have already failed.

But the student with ADD post was a real cut above. In a nutshell, every student is different, and this one more than most, find out what THEY are looking for from the normally hugely disappointing and frustrating act of hitting white/black sticks lined up on a big wooden box, and respond to that. Ignore the wishes of the parent if there is a conflict and appeal directly to the student's ambition. Any moment they stop liking the piano or cease seeing in it something worthwhile may be the moment they switch off for keeps.

PS tour-guides of a piano can also be a very constructive thing to do. For the classes I give in my house I have been known to take out a screwdriver and dismantle my Weber if I felt that the student would respond with amazement at how it works - how the hammer is pulled back, how the key is counter-balanced, what the little spring does etc. It is huge fun but I wouldn't dream of making this a set lesson for everybody, mind, nor would I dare do it to another person's piano.

[lostinidlewonder]

...For the classes I give in my house I have been known to take out a screwdriver and dismantle my Weber if I felt that the student would respond with amazement at how it works - how the hammer is pulled back, how the key is counter-balanced, what the little spring does etc. It is huge fun but I wouldn't dream of making this a set lesson for everybody, mind, nor would I dare do it to another person's piano.

I recently started teaching a new student at a music school (on an upright piano) who had been playing piano for 3 years. They have only a digital piano to practice on at home. I asked him if he had ever seen the inside of a real piano and how it works. When they said no I immediately took all the panels off so that they could see the skeleton of the piano We did the lesson with the piano opened up and they where really intrigued how their fingers caused such a complicated movement inside this instrument. I think this one moment opened a new understanding for them about how they created sound. Something I think these days with the technology people can miss out on.

[go12_3]

I noticed this thread has popped up lately.  I make it a point not to teach a student that has discipline problems because that is the parents job in the first place.  I do not hand out candy nor play games.  Learning to play piano takes focus and effort and I expect my students to do their best, not playing perfectly, but get the idea of what they are learning and how to play well.
It depends upon their ages on what to teach them.  Age 8 and above are the best to teach, their minds are more developed and their comprehension level is higher.

Last year, I had a boy student of age 10 and he had an anger issue during the lesson.  I told him to stop getting angry that there was no need to do that during his lessons.  He learned to calm down and lessons went well. 

It's up the the teacher and student to work together.  If there is an issue of discipline, then quit teaching the student.  It didn't help me to talk to the parent because they could get real defensive about their child.  I can usually tell how a student is after a couple of lessons if he/she will continue on.  And most of them have been on their best behavior.   

best wishes,

go12_3

[dezfair]

It has been my experience that kids with an attention deficit ( the ever popular diagnosis of ADHD) often have within them a great talent waiting to be unleashed. I have had a couple of such students and had the good fortune to watch their growth into fine pianists. I say good fortune because it always seems to be not only a challenge, but ultimately a matter of luck as to whether you can get them on your wavelength or not.

But I do believe that until a kid is "hooked" on music the challenge is to keep the lesson fun at almost any cost (I also rely on candy prizes). As long as they look forward to seeing you, you can spoon feed them with crazy stories about composers doing odd things like sawing the legs off the piano or being visited by their fathers ghost (age permiting!) I allow flexibility in the lesson time and try to cut it off at a high point, leaving them wanting more. Eventually the candy and the drama take a back seat to the thrill of playing.

Good Luck!