Ravel: Gaspard/Mirroirs, Technically Impossible?

[f0bul0us]

For anyone who's finished or attempting the extremely delicate dynamics of Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit and Mirroirs, is it accepted (or gradually becoming more accepted) to play each dynamic marking a marking higher? E.g, ppp -> pp, pp->p, p->mp? Even when holding the soft pedal, the fast passages (anything with 32nd notes) are too difficult to play flawless at the pp or ppp dynamic everytime. The question's base comes from a competition point of view, is it worth having a few passages louder than written, when you could have just raised the dynamic marking to avoid a bad adjudication?

[liszmaninopin]

If I see what you mean-I think dynamics are more of a relative thing, anyway.  As long as you have them correct relatively, you should be fine.  After all, what is pp to you might only be p to someone else.  For example, as long as you play the p sections louder than pp, and quieter than mf, I'd presume you should be fine.

It's true-the dynamics, phrasing, and touch are part of what makes these pieces so difficult, yet so magical.  Ravel can be like that!

[JK]

I'm learning the miroirs at the moment and I know what you mean by the technical problems! I agree that dynamics are relative however if you can somehow manage to get the sound down to a real ppp (this depends very much on the piano and the acoustic) then the effect can be absolutely magical. I think a very light touch is needed, but again this depends on the piano! As for Gaspard I really can't comment having never played it but knowing that it does verge on the impossible!

[liszmaninopin]

I would have to agree-playing the notes to these pieces (Gaspard) can be challenging enough.  However, unlike difficult stuff by, say, Rachmaninoff, you can't really hide any errors in Ravel.  It requires a touch that can't be too precise-combining the technical demands of say Liszt or worse, with the needs for delicacy and accuracy of Mozart.

The miroirs are beautiful-I especially like "Sad birds."

[monk]

Get some recordings by great pianists.

Then you will hear how the things on paper are meant, instead of theoretizing around.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[littlechopin]

I find very difficult to play the lowest and fastest parts of the left hand "ppp"...  in "scarbo"

[f0bul0us]

I find very difficult to play the lowest and fastest parts of the left hand "ppp"...  in "scarbo"

Preach on, brotha.

[ahmedito]

You know, in scarbo you really should try to think about Ravels intentions and the programatic elements of the music. I find that sometimes the ppp dinamic is essential, as the notes are sometimes not all that important. The effect of the music completely disapearing is much more important than hitting all the notes right (although you should try to do both).
Listen to Samson Francois rendition of Gaspard.... not all te notes are there, but MAN! its legendary and Scarbo is spine tingling.

[thomj]

i'm almost finished learning miroirs, having started it properly late february. most enchanted with noctuelles and une barque sur l'ocean (especially the soaring section from about bar 28) ahhhh bliss.

Get some recordings by great pianists.

Then you will hear how the things on paper are meant, instead of theoretizing around.

Best Wishes,
Monk

i'd have to agree... and i'll add cecille oussette's recording to the "recommended recordings" list. I know some people seem to have a problem with a certain "harshness" with C.O. (i don't hear it)- but for clarity, and fire, and everything... i love her.

Of course, there's always Perlemuter's recordings as well- which are hard (impossible) to beat? Although apparently he was quite old when he made them and had lost some of his technical prowess... who could tell though...

Does anybody know if Perlemuter made any recordings when he was in his prime? of specifically ravel's works?

[tds]

i play both gaspard and miroirs. they both are extremely hard, but technically possible. no one should attempt to play these sets unless s/he has totally mastered the so-called voicing technique.

the dynamic level between the main melody and the accompaniment SHOULD be distant, in ravel music ( and in most music, really ). graphically, it should look more or less like the following:

 MAIN MELODY
     --
     --
     --
     --
     --
     --
     --
     --
     --
     --
ACCOMPANIMENT


more often than not, accompaniment in ravel's music should be played super soft: pppp. hope this helps. best, tds

[Jacey1973]

Of course, there's always Perlemuter's recordings as well- which are hard (impossible) to beat? Although apparently he was quite old when he made them and had lost some of his technical prowess... who could tell though...

Does anybody know if Perlemuter made any recordings when he was in his prime? of specifically ravel's works?

I'm not sure about Perlemuter making recordings when he was younger - but you think there would be some somewhere wouldn't you? Because the recording i heard (which my lecturer also told me isn't brilliant because of Perlemuter's age) was made around the 1960s/70s? (Am i right?) so you would think someone would have recorded him when he was younger as recording equipment was available then (fairly decent equipment from the 1920s onwards).

I played Ravel's "Alborada del gracioso" in a masterclass a couple of weeks ago with the pianist (and editor of the Durand editions of Debussy's music) Roy Howat. He gave me some fantastic tips because he studied with Vlado Perlemuter (who studied with Ravel) and was able to pass down really practical ideas on fingerings/pedalling it was really worthwhile (although i was very nervous!)

[lostinidlewonder]

To generate the p touches in Ravel you have to have good finger PUSHING ability at the keyboard as well as accuracte pedalling to control the phrasing. Fingers must push the keys down instead of striking the key. That means you push down onto the notes that your fingers are already touching. This maintains very close contact with the fingers/keys and then sets up the feel for the p touch.

You have to do this very often throughout the Gaspard to make the water sounds shimmer, it is especially evident your ability to PUSH the notes instead of striking them in the opening tremolo of Ondine. If you strike the individual notes like a Czerny piece you will never achieve the p touch, but one who holds the hand close to the keys and pushes the notes will acheive a very delicate sound.

As for mucking around with the sound dynamics, making pp-p for example, you would have to tweak it this way for a larger hall to accomadate for the size of the room. But in smaller rooms I would even say the push for increased range of your p touches is demanded because we are closer to the instrument.

[SDL]

To generate the p touches in Ravel you have to have good finger PUSHING ability at the keyboard as well as accuracte pedalling to control the phrasing. Fingers must push the keys down instead of striking the key. That means you push down onto the notes that your fingers are already touching. This maintains very close contact with the fingers/keys and then sets up the feel for the p touch.

I get very quiet in Ondine, and the push technique is a good way to describe this technique (PUSH is how describe Sandor's Thrust - see Thrust thread for more). 

The best Ondine Ive heard is Louis Lortie's.  He gets them rhythmic and even.

The best Scarbo IS STILL (IMO) Michalangelo-Benedetti.  I have a record of him.  No-one seems to produce the haunting ppp sections like he does.