Rachmaninoff lecture

[weissenberg2]

next week I have to give a lecture on Rachmaninoff's B-minor moment musical for a school presentation. I will hopefully have aid of a keyboard so I can demonstrate certain things.

Here are the things I have found while analyzing the piece:  

in measure 5 there is a plagel cadence

in measures 1-2 on page 2 the base notes of the triads make the main theme

before climax no.1 there is another plagel cadence

in the qausi-march section there is a harmonic pattern. This is whenever there is a triad he gives it an inversion, whenever there is a third he brings the top note down an octave to make it a sixth. on chords 1 and 2 of measure 4 (chord no.1 can be considered a G-Major chord with an F#-A third or a B-minor chord with a g-a ninth and chord no.2 could be considered a diminished C-Sharp minor chord with a g-a second or an A-Major cohrd with a G octave) are revealed as a B-minor chord (this time with an A) and chord no.2 is revealed as a diminished C-Sharp minor chord.

on measure one of bar one of page no.3, the climax on page 2 is repeated except this time in E-Minor.

one measure 2 of the final bar there is a deceptive cadence.

the developement that lead to the march theme one page two is repeated except in E-Minor like the recapitulation of the climax

It ends on the sub-dominate harmony with a single that is a D.



any suggestions?

thanks ahead.

[minor9th]

If you write anything on the board, be sure to spell BASS notes correctly... (Unless you mean "base" as in foundation)

[weissenberg2]

If you write anything on the board, be sure to spell BASS notes correctly... (Unless you mean "base" as in foundation)

sure thing



I forgot to mention that in the quasi-march section, one of the chords completely remains the same in the right hand, with an inversion it would sound weird to the ear so Rachmaninoff breaks his own rules (Big Dog does whatever Big Dog wants to do)

[ramseytheii]

next week I have to give a lecture on Rachmaninoff's B-minor moment musical for a school presentation. I will hopefully have aid of a keyboard so I can demonstrate certain things.

Here are the things I have found while analyzing the piece:  

in measure 5 there is a plagel cadence

in measures 1-2 on page 2 the base notes of the triads make the main theme

before climax no.1 there is another plagel cadence

in the qausi-march section there is a harmonic pattern. This is whenever there is a triad he gives it an inversion, whenever there is a third he brings the top note down an octave to make it a sixth. on chords 1 and 2 of measure 4 (chord no.1 can be considered a G-Major chord with an F#-A third or a B-minor chord with a g-a ninth and chord no.2 could be considered a diminished C-Sharp minor chord with a g-a second or an A-Major cohrd with a G octave) are revealed as a B-minor chord (this time with an A) and chord no.2 is revealed as a diminished C-Sharp minor chord.

on measure one of bar one of page no.3, the climax on page 2 is repeated except this time in E-Minor.

one measure 2 of the final bar there is a deceptive cadence.

the developement that lead to the march theme one page two is repeated except in E-Minor like the recapitulation of the climax

It ends on the sub-dominate harmony with a single that is a D.



any suggestions?

thanks ahead.

What does all that tell you about Rachmaninoff?

Walter Ramsey

[communist]

(deleted)

[weissenberg2]

What does all that tell you about Rachmaninoff?

Walter Ramsey

That does not talk about Rachmaninoff that talks about the piece I am lecturing on (I.E. moment musical in B-Minor). I will talk about Rachmaninoff before I give the lecture. I may have misnamed the title of the thread.

[ramseytheii]

That does not talk about Rachmaninoff that talks about the piece I am lecturing on (I.E. moment musical in B-Minor). I will talk about Rachmaninoff before I give the lecture. I may have misnamed the title of the thread.

What I meant was, what does that say about the way Rachmaninoff composed?

Walter Ramsey

[weissenberg2]

What I meant was, what does that say about the way Rachmaninoff composed?

Walter Ramsey

I will probably talk about his composition style before I talk about the piece

[ramseytheii]

I will probably talk about his composition style before I talk about the piece

It would be most interesting, to hear how the observations you made about the piece relate specifically to his style.  For instance, his reluctance to waste any material; his coloristic (as opposed to functional) use of distant harmonies; his use of texture to create poetic effects.

When analyzing music, it's important to remember that the speed of your analysis, that is the speed of your talking, never corresponds with real-time in the music.  Therefore, there is a tendency to isolate certain details, but when you talk about them, people can't relate it to a sound.  They can't relate your words, with the progression of music.  That's why in analyzing in a lecture it is important to generalize, generalize, generalize.  Moments should be isolated, described, and put in a trend - not just left alone. 

That paragraph I just wrote made me go back and look at your notes, and they are very confusing.  I wll address them in another post!

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

next week I have to give a lecture on Rachmaninoff's B-minor moment musical for a school presentation. I will hopefully have aid of a keyboard so I can demonstrate certain things.

Here are the things I have found while analyzing the piece:  

in measure 5 there is a plagel cadence

I don't see any cadence at all in measure 5.  Are you counting the first beat as a measure?  Because if there are not 4 beats in the bar, you can't count it as a separate measure.

I do see a cadence in measure 4, but it's not plagal, it's just a V⁷/III to III, with a III pedal.

in measures 1-2 on page 2 the base notes of the triads make the main theme

Does everyone have the same edition as you?  Why don't you just name bar numbers?  

before climax no.1 there is another plagel cadence

I think I can tell what you are talking about, the climax in measure 26, and you should be more specific... but I don't see any plagal cadence.  The chord that leads into m.26 is a V⁷, but it is not a real cadence because the music keeps going.  Even a few bars before m.26, there's no plagal cadence!

in the qausi-march section there is a harmonic pattern. This is whenever there is a triad he gives it an inversion, whenever there is a third he brings the top note down an octave to make it a sixth. on chords 1 and 2 of measure 4 (chord no.1 can be considered a G-Major chord with an F#-A third or a B-minor chord with a g-a ninth and chord no.2 could be considered a diminished C-Sharp minor chord with a g-a second or an A-Major cohrd with a G octave) are revealed as a B-minor chord (this time with an A) and chord no.2 is revealed as a diminished C-Sharp minor chord.

I don't understand this at all.  What do you mean, "whenever there is a triad he gives it an inversion?"  Do you mean, that triads first come in one form, then in inversion?  Or do you mean, more simply, that the melody is written in parallel sixths.  This is also called "faux bourdon."

What is measure 4?  Where do you start counting in the "quasi march" section?  It's not clear at all.  Just give general measure numbers for the whole piece.  I really don't see these chords you are describing.  A G major chord with F# and A would be a G major 9th chord.  As for diminished, there are no "major" or "minor" diminished chords, there are only diminished chords (or half-diminished).  So you mean, a diminished chord on C#?  Or an A 7?  That's totally confusing.

on measure one of bar one of page no.3, the climax on page 2 is repeated except this time in E-Minor.

Bars don't have measures, bars are measures.  Do you mean "measure one of [line] one"?

What edition do you have?   Do you have an edition where the second fortissimo is on the top of the page?  That would mean the page would only have 10 bars, that doesn't sound likely.

one measure 2 of the final bar there is a deceptive cadence.

Do you mean, "[on] measure 2 of the final [line]"?  In any case, I don't see a deceptive cadence.

the developement that lead to the march theme one page two is repeated except in E-Minor like the recapitulation of the climax

That's actually an important point - but you should always tell the people why.  It goes to show, that Rachmaninoff does not waste any material.  Even a short transition is used again, this time to close the piece.

See what I mean?  Generalize, generalize, generalize.  These things that one points out in music have to go towards describing a larger point; the fact that he uses the same material in itself is not interesting.

It ends on the sub-dominate harmony with a single that is a D.

Yikes.  This piece ends in b minor; there is a suspended E which resolves (4-3), but there is no ending on a sub-dominant.

Back to the books!


Walter Ramsey

[weissenberg2]

I don't see any cadence at all in measure 5.  Are you counting the first beat as a measure?  Because if there are not 4 beats in the bar, you can't count it as a separate measure.

I do see a cadence in measure 4, but it's not plagal, it's just a V⁷/III to III, with a III pedal.


Does everyone have the same edition as you?  Why don't you just name bar numbers? 


I think I can tell what you are talking about, the climax in measure 26, and you should be more specific... but I don't see any plagal cadence.  The chord that leads into m.26 is a V⁷, but it is not a real cadence because the music keeps going.  Even a few bars before m.26, there's no plagal cadence!


I don't understand this at all.  What do you mean, "whenever there is a triad he gives it an inversion?"  Do you mean, that triads first come in one form, then in inversion?  Or do you mean, more simply, that the melody is written in parallel sixths.  This is also called "faux bourdon."

What is measure 4?  Where do you start counting in the "quasi march" section?  It's not clear at all.  Just give general measure numbers for the whole piece.  I really don't see these chords you are describing.  A G major chord with F# and A would be a G major 9th chord.  As for diminished, there are no "major" or "minor" diminished chords, there are only diminished chords (or half-diminished).  So you mean, a diminished chord on C#?  Or an A 7?  That's totally confusing.

Bars don't have measures, bars are measures.  Do you mean "measure one of [line] one"?

What edition do you have?   Do you have an edition where the second fortissimo is on the top of the page?  That would mean the page would only have 10 bars, that doesn't sound likely.

Do you mean, "[on] measure 2 of the final [line]"?  In any case, I don't see a deceptive cadence.

That's actually an important point - but you should always tell the people why.  It goes to show, that Rachmaninoff does not waste any material.  Even a short transition is used again, this time to close the piece.

See what I mean?  Generalize, generalize, generalize.  These things that one points out in music have to go towards describing a larger point; the fact that he uses the same material in itself is not interesting.

Yikes.  This piece ends in b minor; there is a suspended E which resolves (4-3), but there is no ending on a sub-dominant.

Back to the books!


Walter Ramsey

first of all I do not know much about cadences so that is why I probably said a few that don't exist so sorry about that 

I am using the edition on IMSLP

I do mean lines not bars so sorry about that

By major and minor deminished chords I meant diminished chords that are chords of a major key (E.G. g major chord) or of a minor chords (E.G. b minor chord)

I counted the qausi-march section when the left hand just starts to begin in octaves

If it ends on a D and the piece is in B Minor would D not be a sub-dominant?

[weissenberg2]

And thank you for your help by the way. I think "going back to the books" is a little unneeded since the only things I got wrong were the false cadences ( ) and the sub-dominant at the end.

[ramseytheii]

first of all I do not know much about cadences so that is why I probably said a few that don't exist so sorry about that 

I am using the edition on IMSLP

I do mean lines not bars so sorry about that

By major and minor deminished chords I meant diminished chords that are chords of a major key (E.G. g major chord) or of a minor chords (E.G. b minor chord)

I counted the qausi-march section when the left hand just starts to begin in octaves

If it ends on a D and the piece is in B Minor would D not be a sub-dominant?

I still don't understand what you mean when talking about diminished chords.  What do mean, "of" a major key?  Do you mean the direction in which they resolve?  Do you mean the scale whence they are derived?  It's not clear at all what you are talking about.

Ending on a pitch is immaterial if the bass is held all the way through.  It ends on a b minor chord, plain and simple, with a 4-3 resolution. 

The subdominant is the harmony below the dominant; it would be e minor in this case.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

And thank you for your help by the way. I think "going back to the books" is a little unneeded since the only things I got wrong were the false cadences ( ) and the sub-dominant at the end.

*blank stare*

Well, I think it's fair to suggest you should read up on plagal cadences (which by the way involve sub-dominant harmony).

I hope you read my post thoroughly!

Walter Ramsey

[weissenberg2]

I still don't understand what you mean when talking about diminished chords.  What do mean, "of" a major key?  Do you mean the direction in which they resolve?  Do you mean the scale whence they are derived?  It's not clear at all what you are talking about.

Ending on a pitch is immaterial if the bass is held all the way through.  It ends on a b minor chord, plain and simple, with a 4-3 resolution. 

The subdominant is the harmony below the dominant; it would be e minor in this case.

Walter Ramsey

forget I said anything about diminished chords

It does not matter now anyway, I gave the lecture and the electric keyboard totally messed me up (you could not play above forte in the higher registers without making a screeching sound) it also brought out each note equally which made it sound like a bunch of wrong notes and I did not play it that well anyway.