Practice separate hands

[concerto_love]

I've been told by my teacher that this kind of practice really working in learning Inventio or Fugue.

What I want to ask... Is this kind of practice helping in Czeny Etudes, Chopin Walts, etc.?
If not, what's your suggestions?

Thanks.

[db05]

I can't do without it. I learn all my pieces that way, at least at the start.

[perfect_pitch]

I NEVER... ever practice hands separataly.

My method for practice is to sight-read the piece at exactly a quarter of the tempo to get used to the notes... then I slowly bring it up to half-speed to get my fingers used to playing the notes and to gain fluency between the passages....

...then bring it up to full speed. But I DO NOT believe in separating the hands. You have to play hands together so you should start practicing hands together... in my opinion.

[go12_3]

It's hard to know what is best to play hands together or separately to learn a piece.
I usually sight-read through the piece with hands together.  And then break down the piece in sections and practice with each hand separately in order to get the correct fingering, notes and so forth.  Practice slowly for a while until the piece feels comfortable with each hand separately.  Then practice with both hands together.  Some passages I find, in the pieces that I am learning, needs more work than other passages.  So I spend more time on it and focus upon what the notes are doing in relation to the fingering.  I am an audio learner which makes learning a piece quickly.  Try what is comfortable for you, and if you are taking lessons, then let your teacher guide you in what needs to be accomplished. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[iroveashe]

If you start practicing HT, everything you do, including the mistakes, stuttering, unnecessary movements and tension, etc., will be memorized by your hands and included in your playing. So unless you're a good sight-reader and can read across whole sections with HT and no stuttering you should do HS. The reason for working hands separate is simple: first figure out the fingerings, expression, dynamics and tempo (HT speed will always be slower than HS speed, so you want to achieve a faster speed than performance speed in each hand), and then work on coordination. If you try to do all that at the same time it's too much, and you'll most likely mess up, unless of course you're an expert. Also, most of the times one hand is more interesting and elaborated than the other, so you'd be training them unequally.

I used to practice hands together from the start, and even in pieces when the left hand is repetitive and pretty simple (like a Chopin Waltz or Nocturne Op. 9 No. 2), some notes wouldn't sound, the chords weren't clear enough, etc.

But in the end it's up to you, you could take 2 pieces or two sections of the same piece that are similar, and practice one HT and the other HS until you can play each hand faster than final speed, put them together and after sometime see how both methods go.

[pianist_on_the_ocean]

When I play the piano I want to be sure of every single note I play, following that way I can better enter in a piece and give a right interpretation, a powerful dinamic, so I prefer do practice firstly with the right hand, beginning slowly until I'm sure and I can play it faster, then with the left one, and finally with both the hands following the same method, so beginning slowly etc...
I think this could be a strong method to learn the technique of a piece, maybe a little bit longer than another one but surely effective!  

pianist_on_the_ocean

[db05]

Technical problems aside, I find it helpful to separate the parts, to hear the melodies and adjust dynamics...

[birba]

I NEVER... ever practice hands separataly.

My method for practice is to sight-read the piece at exactly a quarter of the tempo to get used to the notes... then I slowly bring it up to half-speed to get my fingers used to playing the notes and to gain fluency between the passages....

...then bring it up to full speed. But I DO NOT believe in separating the hands. You have to play hands together so you should start practicing hands together... in my opinion.
You are without a doubt, the exception that proves the norm.  You are probably a genius on the level of Mozart who they say could sight-read ANYTHING.  But I wonder if you could sight-read Regards de l'esprit de joie hands together at 1/8 the speed.

[perfect_pitch]

OK... Something like that I think I could sight read at 1/8th the speed and maybe sight-read at 1/4 the speed.... anything faster and I doubt I would have the ability to do it... 

Having said that - I actually hate music such as this... It's pretty awful sounding to me... and I would probably never play it... if asked to.

[timothy42b]

...then bring it up to full speed. But I DO NOT believe in separating the hands. You have to play hands together so you should start practicing hands together... in my opinion.

Sounds logical.

But I'm logical too.  You have to play at tempo, so you MUST start practicing at tempo immediately.  That old wives tale about practicing slowly enough not to make mistakes is wrong, wrong, wrong.  Practicing slowly uses positions and motions that are not used at tempo, therefore you ARE practicing mistakes when you practice slowly. 

[go12_3]

Sounds logical.

But I'm logical too.  You have to play at tempo, so you MUST start practicing at tempo immediately.  That old wives tale about practicing slowly enough not to make mistakes is wrong, wrong, wrong.  Practicing slowly uses positions and motions that are not used at tempo, therefore you ARE practicing mistakes when you practice slowly. 

It would take a real *mechanic* to truly play the tempo.......hummm....I wonder if you make any mistakes in playing through Chopin's Etude 10/1?   Or whatever piece you decide to play with both hands?  Then you must be quite exceptional or a genius.  Interesting indeed.

Does any pianist other than you and perfect_pitch has that ability and skill to play HT a tempo on any piece you lay your eyes upon?   I am just wondering now.....

best wishes,

go12_3

[perfect_pitch]

Oh Come one... when you take a piece at a quarter of the speed anything is fricken possible... I've been playing for 15 years and spent 4 years at University doing 2 years of sight-reading classes.

Now if I said that I could sight-read pieces at tempo hands together then everyone would know that's just a bunch of bollocks... and I believe that you'd have to be fricken Liszt to do that...

But learning a piece of music at a quarter of the speed is easily managable if you've been playing long enough. I mean if a piece of music has a tempo of semiquavers at Presto tempo - at a quarter of the speed you're practically playing at a tempo of 40 beats a minute - easily do-able.

[timothy42b]

Does any pianist other than you and perfect_pitch has that ability and skill to play HT a tempo on any piece you lay your eyes upon?   I am just wondering now.....

best wishes,

go12_3

Not me AND perfect_pitch, just him. 

However, you have illustrated my point.  In thinking at tempo, you have leapt to a false conclusion. 

My use of the tempo example was to illustrate the absurdity of p_p insisting on always playing HT.  However, there is some truth to it.  It is perfectly okay to start a piece at or above tempo.  Nowhere did I imply you would do the whole piece that way.  You would do one beat that way, or maybe just two notes.  It might be HS or HT depending on how complicated.  There are other ways to reduce difficulty for learning purposes than just slowing down.  HS is one way.  Very short sections is another.  Etc. 

[perfect_pitch]

My use of the tempo example was to illustrate the absurdity of p_p insisting on always playing HT.

Great... just what I wanted - to be insulted. There is nothing absurd about it. Right now I'm learning Stravinsky's 3 Movements from Petrouchka... The day I first looked at the sheet music I knew the tempo in my head and how fast it's SUPPOSED to be...

The first time I put my hands on the keyboard I learnt it at a quarter of the speed.. Thats about a crotchet = 27 for gods sake... thats slower than Grave... it's plenty of time for the brain to recognise the notes you are playing.

I spent two years at university doing sight reading classes from Bartok's Mikrokosmos to easy Haydn Sonata etc... and we had to do it without looking at the keyboard when we did it.

There is NOTHING wrong with learning Hands together... as long as you don't take it too fast a tempo and keep the fluency.

[go12_3]

No one needs to be insulted.  Pardon me for miscontruing some of the posts here!
Some pianists perfer for learn with *hands together* and some prefer to learn with each hand separate. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[timothy42b]

There is NOTHING wrong with learning Hands together... as long as you don't take it too fast a tempo and keep the fluency.

Yes, there is something wrong with learning hands together.  It requires a slow tempo.   

(there are other things as well, but that is the critical element)

Starting with a tempo that slow is a guaranteed way for a beginner to build speed walls and may result in remaining a beginner forever. 

It may work for you, after 15 years of experience.  To recommend it to everybody here, on a student forum, is a bit on the irresponsible side. 

[ramseytheii]

I NEVER... ever practice hands separataly.

My method for practice is to sight-read the piece at exactly a quarter of the tempo to get used to the notes... then I slowly bring it up to half-speed to get my fingers used to playing the notes and to gain fluency between the passages....

...then bring it up to full speed. But I DO NOT believe in separating the hands. You have to play hands together so you should start practicing hands together... in my opinion.

That frankly sounds like a very un-musical approach; it sounds totally physically based.  It sounds like you don't want to play hands separate, because you think it is an impediment to learning the piece physically.

But the fact is, when each hand has a different type of musical line, of course it should be practiced separately, to achieve the most beautiful phrasing, the most refined touch, the most buoyant rhythm.

Remember, the purpose of practicing is to find the secrets to make the music come alive, not just get used to a piece physically.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Sounds logical.

But I'm logical too.  You have to play at tempo, so you MUST start practicing at tempo immediately.  That old wives tale about practicing slowly enough not to make mistakes is wrong, wrong, wrong.  Practicing slowly uses positions and motions that are not used at tempo, therefore you ARE practicing mistakes when you practice slowly.  

I think the real wives tale is about how practicing slowly only leads to wrong movement.  Why can't you practice a piece written in a fast tempo slowly, and use the correct movement?  Are you saying that when people practice slow pieces, they always make mistakes?  Why is that impossible?  I've never heard a convincing argument; in fact, I do it all the time.

Rachmaninoff practiced incredibly slowly.  In some reminisciences or another, the author, who heard Rachmaninoff practicing backstage before the concert, reported that the piece was so slow he could not even recognize it as the Chopin waltz that it was, until he played it at a faster tempo.

Of course things should be practiced at different tempos.  It is just common sense.  It is ridiculous, to think that because you are going to perform at a tempo, you should always, always, always play it at that exact tempo.

Sometimes you need to feel the progression of the music in a more expansive way.  Sometimes you need to work out complex counterpoint; sometimes you need to take the time to adequately decide how to weigh conflicting touches.  It is just so obvious to me, that I can't believe people say it is harmful.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

No one needs to be insulted.  Pardon me for miscontruing some of the posts here!
Some pianists perfer for learn with *hands together* and some prefer to learn with each hand separate. 

best wishes,

go12_3

The fact is, common sense is not reigning in this thread.  It is only common sense to say, if there are two complicated things going on in both hands, they should be practiced separately, in order to make each thing achieve its fullest potential.

Most people's posts seem to obsess with a physical approach, as in, "If you practice hands separate, you will not be able to combine the hands."  or, "If you practice hands together, you will not be able to play the tempo."  I urge everyone to think of this as a musical issue, not a physical issue.

Practice hands separate in order to achieve the maximum musicality.

Walter Ramsey

[iroveashe]

I think the real wives tale is about how practicing slowly only leads to wrong movement.  Why can't you practice a piece written in a fast tempo slowly, and use the correct movement?  Are you saying that when people practice slow pieces, they always make mistakes?  Why is that impossible?  I've never heard a convincing argument; in fact, I do it all the time.

When beginners practice slowly, they usually do too many unnecessary movements; I know I did, and still do sometimes. As Bernhard used to say, you shouldn't practice slowly, but in slow motion. If you already know from experience what movements you need to do and which to avoid even when playing slow, then there's no problem. If you don't, first you need to figure them out at fast tempo, and then practice them slowly.

Rachmaninoff practiced incredibly slowly.  In some reminisciences or another, the author, who heard Rachmaninoff practicing backstage before the concert, reported that the piece was so slow he could not even recognize it as the Chopin waltz that it was, until he played it at a faster tempo.

I think the reason for ultra-slow practice is for memory purposes, isn't it?

[perfect_pitch]

That frankly sounds like a very un-musical approach; it sounds totally physically based.  It sounds like you don't want to play hands separate, because you think it is an impediment to learning the piece physically.

But the fact is, when each hand has a different type of musical line, of course it should be practiced separately, to achieve the most beautiful phrasing, the most refined touch, the most buoyant rhythm.

So what your saying is that you can't practice slow AND achieve beautiful phrasing at the same time... that is a load of rubbish... only if you have a crap teacher. My piano teacher would agree with me, she's been teaching for decades and managed to correct my hand position, my ability to read every SPEC of articulation on the page, as well as teaching me proper phrasing and voicing, because 5 years ago - I was a shell of a piano player who was only amateur at best (at a University level). Even when we sight-read easy pieces or Piano duets... from the second we start playing she'll remind me to think of the phrasing AS WE SIGHT-READ. 

I do actually think that learning a piece such as Stravinsky's petrouchka hands seperately is an impediment considering the amount of control you need to have, the crossrhythms, etc... Plus she has managed to correct a lot of my bad technique. I mean seriously... how would someone else go practice the Petrouchka??? I can already play most of the entire piece at half-speed and just need time to get it up to proper speed.

And the thing is, even before I touch the piano to learn something, I do a dry-read of it in my head and work out the melody, the phrasing etc... working out the climax as well.

[langsam]

in before i always practice with both hands due to "laziness" (not exactly...)

these days i experimented with separate hand practices, the results are much more fruitful than hands together and my playings sound much better. Maybe it's an illusion but i am gonna continue this way of practice.

i think that practising slow is not a bad idea, your fingers, hand, whatever... move slowly while you don't think slowly in your mind. I think it's even more challenging to play slow than fast for some pieces, because music is easily "discontinued".

[timothy42b]

I think the real wives tale is about how practicing slowly only leads to wrong movement.  Why can't you practice a piece written in a fast tempo slowly, and use the correct movement?  Are you saying that when people practice slow pieces, they always make mistakes? 

No, no, it doesn't always lead to bad movements.  But it can, because things that can't be played fast in an improper manner can easily be played slowly.  This risk is largely for the beginner, though I suspect it sometimes traps the unsuspecting advanced player as well.  

I practice at a variety of tempos, and yes some of them are quite slow.  I don't think slow practice itself is necessarily bad.  I do think the common and very intuitive practice of gaining speed through an incremental ramping up process is very dangerous.  Speed doesn't come from magic or paying your dues.  Speed comes from relaxation and correct biomechanics.  Some of those mechanics can be demonstrated and taught by a good teacher, but some of them are subtle and can only be discovered by trial and error.  Slow tempos produce none of this type of error, and repeated slow tempos can ingrain poor mechanics, making the eventual necessary error more difficult to come by.  

When things are too complicated to play at sight, there are many methods one can use to learn them.  One is to insist on HT and slow the tempo.  Another is to increase the tempo and play HS.  Another is to play even faster, but in tiny sections.  PP seems fixated on using only one method, but that method doesn't work for everybody.  It doesn't work for me.  

[birba]

Shura Cherkassy said that once a piece has been learned up to speed, you have to go back, every so often,  to "slow motion", which does not mean slow mechanical work, but "slow choreography" work.  That is, the movements of every aspect of the fingers, hands and arms in a slow, slightly exaggerated manner.  I thought that was very interesting, especially coming from  such a virtuoso as he was.
Frugoni, an italian pianist and pedagogue, recommended learning a piece backwards.  I kid you not.  Literally, beginning from the last note and going to the beginning.  I saw one of his students do it once.  It was VERY bizarre, to say the least.  I leave that to you all to judge.

[iroveashe]

Frugoni, an italian pianist and pedagogue, recommended learning a piece backwards.  I kid you not.  Literally, beginning from the last note and going to the beginning.  I saw one of his students do it once.  It was VERY bizarre, to say the least.  I leave that to you all to judge.

I always thought about doing that, but I never attempted it.

Anyways, to answer the original question: it is helpful and very useful, both for technical and musical reasons to work on any kind of piece with some degree of complexity, with separate hands. Seems like the thread has gone out of topic and it's about what's more logical and who's right. Working hands together may be a good approach for someone like perfect_pitch, who's repertoire seems to be pretty advanced, but I don't think that's your case.

[pavb2]

Hope this in the right place

on a more basic level I try and learn hands separate and this is fine everything sticks but when I put them together the whole thing falls apart hitting wrong notes with either hand etc.

It's like the (my) brain has too much information to process,

Is it just a case of persevering or has any one got any advice, this is so frustrating.

Thanks for any help

Pavb2

[go12_3]

pavb2:   You are at the right place.  It takes time for the brain and hands to work together depending upon your level and ability.  You didn't offer much information in relation to what pieces you are working on.  So the generalistic advice that I can offer to you is that make sure each finger knows where it's going and doing, and when you play HT, just play slowly and focus upon the notes for 15 minutes.  Then take a break.  And then return to practicing the pieces you are working on.  Sometimes, you don't have to play the whole piece, just in sections, ok?  Then eventually the whole piece will come together instead of falling apart with *too much information* in your brain.  Happy practicing.   

best wishes,

go12_3

[timothy42b]

on a more basic level I try and learn hands separate and this is fine everything sticks but when I put them together the whole thing falls apart hitting wrong notes with either hand etc.

It's like the (my) brain has too much information to process,

Pavb2

Your diagnosis is correct, this is what it feels like when your brain learns something new. 

Savor it.  When it's learned, your brain is no longer being stimulated and it starts the slide to mush.

But I digress.  There are a couple of methods that help you learn HT faster.  One is dropping notes.  This is well described in earlier posts by Bernhard which you can find through search.  Breifly though you pick a short pattern, say one measure, that can be played repetitively.  Then you get one hand going on that pattern, and each time it comes around you play one note with the other hand.  When that one note is confident, you play two notes.  Eventually you're playing the whole pattern.  Now you start over playing the pattern in the other hand and adding one note from the first hand. 

It seems like it takes forever to do it this way.  But actually it takes far less time than just slowing the tempo to where you can get the notes HT.