Which piece is better to learn first? Chromatic Etude or Thirds Etude?

[winterwind888]

What's your suggestion of what is piece to learn first before the other. I heard it right that these two chopin etudes are incredibly hard.

Op. 10 no. 2 just makes use of the 3rd, 4th and 5th finger making chromaticism while there are chord attacks in 1st and 2nd, including also 3rd in some parts. It is just really difficult to achieve

Op. 25 no. 6 also makes use of the weakest fingers but with the combination of 1st and 2nd fingers in order to make chromatic double thirds.

I personally would attempt chromatic etudes first before thirds etude. Thirds for me would be somewhat hard than the latter.

But any suggestions out there and anyone who had this experience before attempting to play an etude. I know that one would say chromatic etude is harder than thirds. But it would really be helpful to me to discuss your experience.

[makeanote]

Hey there winterwind888,

Chopin's chromatic etude Op. 10#2 is fairly unique in the repertoire - there's lots of studies which deal with thirds both with chromaticism as well as in utilising scalic passages. The Chopin studies are beautifully crafted, but, as for all the Chopin etudes, they are intended to be played by people who already have a solid technique on the concert platform.

In saying this, the Op 10#2 becomes a showpiece more than a technical tool - you really only need the ability to play chromatic scales with the RH at this speed using the given fingering in order to play this study. So, if you're just wanting to learn a really difficult piece - technique aside - go for any of the etudes. If your preference is to learn this one first - take it very slowly - this is the type of study that can damage your hand if your push it. You will need a very relaxed RH. Some good practise for this etude can be as simple as chromatic scales using the latter fingers 3-4-5 exclusively, then moving to including the thumb for a 6th chord every 4 semiquavers.

Trust this helps,
Ian

[cloches_de_geneve]

When practicing 10/2 I got real pain in my finger-joints, almost arthritis-like. Then I stopped practicing it and the pain gradually subsided. I never had such problems with 25/6, which I guess is also the more useful of the two.

This said, I totally agree with makeanote that Chopin Etudes are not for learning or acquiring technical skills. They are for fine-tuning an already very advanced technique.

If it is technical progress that you are looking for, learn Brahms' 51 exercises.  

[cloches_de_geneve]

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[communist]

I would say the chromatic etude since it will strengthen the back fingers which will help with the thirds.

[ramseytheii]

This said, I totally agree with makeanote that Chopin Etudes are not for learning or acquiring technical skills. They are for fine-tuning an already very advanced technique.

That reminds me ironically of Rellstab's famous jibe: "He who has sprained fingers will be able to straighten them out with these etudes [op. 10], but he who has healthy fingers should be careful not to play these etudes unless surgeons are nearby."

Actually I disagree with you, and think Chopin etudes are an ideal way to learn technique - provided you have someone there to show you right vs. wrong.

If it is technical progress that you are looking for, learn Brahms' 51 exercises.  

Here I really have to disagree with you, because Brahms wrote his exercises specifically for his pieces, and his pieces were written in a way specifically to contrast the pianism of Liszt (which is the sister pianism of Chopin).

Charles Rosen talks about, for instance, the "spectacularly difficult variation from the Paganini Variations, Book 2, where the alternation of octave and single note continuously displaces hand and arm in a series of slight jerks which makes it difficult to reach the next note comfortably... this variation is so clearly an attack on ease that Brahms placed the first two bars in his 51 Finger Exercises [exercise 29]..."

(italics added)

Rosen also discusses exercise 14: "I can reach the span of a tenth, but I cannot satisfactorily play the finger-breaking stretches that arise from holding down the inner notes required by this exercise.  Brahms must have enjoyed the suffering that this exercise causes to most pianists."

I have looked at several, and really fail to see their use in the repertoire of Liszt, Chopin and pianist-composers descended from them (which is to say, most pianist-composers).

When practicing 10/2 I got real pain in my finger-joints, almost arthritis-like. Then I stopped practicing it and the pain gradually subsided. I never had such problems with 25/6, which I guess is also the more useful of the two.

Although they seem to require different things, I suspect that both etudes really utilize the same physical approach, which is to say the upper arm really plays the music, and the fingers are just along for the ride.

In op.25 no.6, it is really impossible to play with the fingers alone - actually, it also is impossible in op.10 no.2, but that doesn't stop people from trying.  It's just more obvious in op.25 no.6.

Walter Ramsey

[scottmcc]

Mr Ramsey is on to something here!  It took me all of 10 minutes with the Brahms 51 exercises to realize that they were some kind of devil work...although now I'm tempted to try out the ones referenced just to see how demonic they are.  In scanning through a few of the other ones, it seems that Mr Brahms wrote at least a few of them to draw pretty "christmas tree" patterns on the score, without regard to the sound.  but I guess a few of us have done the same to various mandatory surveys from time to time, right?

One of the liszt technical exercises is a modification of chopin's op 10 #2, and certainly worth trying if you're going to work on that.  I'm away from my copy of the book right now but it's in the middle, with the rest of the chromatic scale exercises.  I'll get you a page number reference later (I'm traveling and don't have much of my music with me).

[cloches_de_geneve]

Actually I disagree with you, and think Chopin etudes are an ideal way to learn technique - provided you have someone there to show you right vs. wrong.

Brahms wrote his exercises specifically for his pieces, and his pieces were written in a way specifically to contrast the pianism of Liszt (which is the sister pianism of Chopin).

Rosen also discusses exercise 14: "I can reach the span of a tenth, but I cannot satisfactorily play the finger-breaking stretches that arise from holding down the inner notes required by this exercise.  Brahms must have enjoyed the suffering that this exercise causes to most pianists."

I have looked at several, and really fail to see their use in the repertoire of Liszt, Chopin and pianist-composers descended from them (which is to say, most pianist-composers).

Walter Ramsey

Regarding Brahms exercises it is true that they are "brahmsian" in a way -- hey, it's he who composed them! But I would disagree that they are only useful for his music, or even written "specifically for his pieces". Who ever said that? Friends, biographers, or even the master himself? Do you have a reference?

I think they are superb for building finger strength, independence, and more importantly, developing well-balanced hands  -- skills that are useful for solving just about any pianistical problem. And if one finds this or that exercise too "devilish", it can be dropped. Furthermore, and with all due respect, I think Rosen is totally mistaken in attributing Brahms sadistic tendencies. You only need to listen to his music to understand that he was not only extremely intelligent but had a very good heart hidden under his rough surface. Moreover, he had the benefit of being modest. He sincerely thought that one day he would occupy a position comparable to that of Correlli in the history of music. For his modesty alone, he would never have written a whole book of exercises just for his own music! And, besides, no composer ever did write technical exercises specifically for their own music. I have not the slightest doubt that he thought hard about the exercises and wrote them to sincerely help pianists to acquire general technical skills.

Regarding Chopin: It has been stated repeatedly in the forum that his Etudes are particularly helpful for his own music. Not exclusively, but particularly. And how hard they are can be gauged from the simple fact that the great majority of legendary pianists only performed or recorded a few of them, rarely the entire set. Against this background, I fail to see how less-than-accomplished pianists could ever learn to play them well. And learning them approximatively will neither be very helpful nor do justice to the exquisite music in the Etudes.