Etude no. 1 from Opus 10 - Chopin (Read 15699 times)

scottical · « on: June 21, 2009, 04:17:59 AM »

This etude is just...nevermind.

I can play through at a slow tempo, but bringing it up to speed has been an enormous challenge. It becomes quite difficult to maintain a flexible wrist, especially during the middle section where the hand is put into a variety of excruciating contortions. I am confident that I can tackle a study of this magnitude, but getting there will not spare any bumps. I would like to have learned the entire Opus 10 set by the end of this year, and I thought I might as well finish off the supposedly "harder" etudes first. So, any suggestions for working with this monster?

go12_3 · «Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 05:06:02 AM »

Is this Etude opus 10 no. 1, I presume. Yes, I have begun working on it in March and it is progressing along just fine by now with both hands. I suggest to relax right arm and hand as you do the arpeggios. At first it seems awkward but practice slowly and make sure you know the finger patterns of each arpeggio and there are repetitions, so the learning this Etude will come quickly. Don't worry about the left hand until the right hand is comfortable in knowing those arpeggios. Practice slowly a page at a time for 15 minutes at a time and then take a break.
With consistent practice, you will get the hang of it. Good luck!

best wishes,

go12_3

cloches_de_geneve · «Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 07:55:20 AM »

To my knowledge, and any archival records available, it has proven impossible to play this etude without wrong notes. Even Pollini in his prime would have about a dozen notes wrong or missing. Other icons of the keyboard, Richter or Asheknazy, had far more. And Cortot has about 50% wrong notes (at least in his late recordings). I imagine it must have driven these pianists nuts not to able to master this beast. I guess what I want to say: Don't despair!

langsam · «Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 01:48:15 AM »

i started learning the op.10/1 in May, i could play safely around 120 i think.. i am yet to try it faster with security, one(or two) of the bars is just too difficult.

finding the notes isn't that difficult right? I think my method is to

1. chop the piece into sections, practice section by section

2. practice slow, with proper articulations

3. find out what's stopping my fingers and solve it. (**get punched in face**)

4. trying to use appropriate arm movement to propel my hands, i do think it reduce tireness.

5. i experimented a practice method, it is to use "weight" to "aim" your fingers, so far my accuracy improved with this practice method but it certainly generates tension easily so it's perhaps cannot be applied to playing.

6. I take some reference to Cortot's version, i do think it helps.

birba · «Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 06:33:28 AM »

Quote from: cloches_de_geneve on June 21, 2009, 07:55:20 AM

To my knowledge, and any archival records available, it has proven impossible to play this etude without wrong notes. Even Pollini in his prime would have about a dozen notes wrong or missing. Other icons of the keyboard, Richter or Asheknazy, had far more. And Cortot has about 50% wrong notes (at least in his late recordings). I imagine it must have driven these pianists nuts not to able to master this beast. I guess what I want to say: Don't despair!

I saw an interview with Ashkenzy once, and they showed a video taken with a small digital camera from behind stage as he played op. 10, no. 1. I think it was even faster than what the paderewski indicates. It was exciting and he didn't drop ONE note. Afterwards they asked him what he thought of his performance, and he what he said, basically, was that it was a fluke and he would never be able to repeat it like that again!

claude_debussy · «Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 09:48:49 AM »

Horowitz never performed it.

Rubenstein never performed it.

Richter didn't like to play it.

And many others as well. It's a daunting piece, though some feel the one that follows, op. 10 #2, is even more daunting.

My feeling: Chopin dedicated it to Liszt as a joke, and a challenge.

Let him show us how good he truly is.

Certainly it's a piece that tests the limits of human ability at the keyboard.

But it's not a stunt - it's a beautiful piano piece, particularly if from the start you can give the very first figure the grandeur it contains. Do that well, and the sound makes a commanding presence, the piece creating an extraordinary new instrument out of the piano.

Bear in mind, op. 10 #1 is a paraphrase, a commentary, on Bach's Prelude #1 in C Major from the Well-Tempered Clavier.

Relax, play slowly and patiently, and go for the music and the sound. 'Tout souple' as Chopin suggests, though he became dismayed by all the fuss this piece created.

But why not? Like many of of the Etudes, it's a work of pure genius.

That's why it's worth years of effort - if you can bring it off, and play it beautifully and powerfully, you're in rare company indeed.

peace, Claude

brianedward · «Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 03:51:59 PM »

This is a piece that I always seem to come back to when I have a break from school. I always prefer to embarrass myself with it in private so that I don't have to feel tortured by working on it in front of a teacher. But anyhow, I feel like I need to focus on one finger with my eyes because when i don't the whole keyboard turns into a blur and my accuracy goes way down. The problem is, I can never decide on which finger to focus on. Does anyone else struggle with this as well?

omar_roy · «Reply #7 on: June 28, 2009, 09:05:23 PM »

Instead of focusing on a finger, try focusing on a the key that your pinky lands on, and if your motion is correct, everything should just fall into place.

thalbergmad · «Reply #8 on: June 28, 2009, 09:12:29 PM »

Quote from: claude_debussy on June 23, 2009, 09:48:49 AM

But it's not a stunt - it's a beautiful piano piece.

Agreed, which is why i used to cheat.

Thal

langsam · «Reply #9 on: June 29, 2009, 09:54:52 AM »

Quote from: thalbergmad on June 28, 2009, 09:12:29 PM

Agreed, which is why i used to cheat.

Thal

how do you cheat on this?

some particular bars are very difficult for me, being specific, bar 22 and later another bar with such element.

i can't legato that thing at all, i use 5321 for that. It chokes me from playing the etude at the right tempo

some help and i would be so happy!

birba · «Reply #10 on: June 29, 2009, 10:09:25 AM »

I saw it performed entirely with TWO hands. And the left hand was doing much more than sustaining octaves...

thalbergmad · «Reply #11 on: June 29, 2009, 11:21:06 AM »

Quote from: birba on June 29, 2009, 10:09:25 AM

I saw it performed entirely with TWO hands. And the left hand was doing much more than sustaining octaves...

Thats what i did.

I would rather cheat than play it badly, which i did anyhow

go12_3 · «Reply #12 on: June 29, 2009, 12:19:03 PM »

langsam:
I have begun to work on this Etude since April. I had to learn the RH very well before could
play with HT(hands together). The arpeggios will become more legato in due time. It will
be difficult with the fingering and spaces between the notes; it takes time for the fingers to
adjust, so be patient with yourself and do not allow frustration at all to enter into your mind.
Practice steadly and SLOWLY, especially with the right hand. Keep playing it slowly even with
both hands together. It will sound glorious and eventually, your mind and fingers will know where and what to do. Now, I haven't gotten this piece to a fast tempo, but it is in moderato now. And still, I have to slow down in order to get everything correc. Pace yourself and you will learn this
Etude. Good luck!

best wishes,

go12_3

richard black · «Reply #13 on: June 29, 2009, 10:42:50 PM »

Try to get hold of Vladimir de Pachmann's edition, which has some very interesting fingerings. I don't have it - anyone? (I once studied a friend's copy.)

general disarray · «Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 02:01:02 PM »

You need a right hand with a huge stretch between fingers and a rotational technique developed to within an inch of its life. Chopin's hand, and there is a plaster cast of it, shows what kind of hand this piece demands.

In lieu of that, I "cheat" on at least six bars with unorthodox fingering that subverts the "etude" requirement and on four bars I enlist the aid of my left hand. It's beautiful music. Any way you can play it counts, as far as I'm concerned. This ain't the Olympics, you know.

I've only heard one pianist play this live note-perfectly and she was drunk at the time.

nearenough · «Reply #15 on: July 11, 2009, 03:13:25 AM »

I am 71 and can still play this etude fairly well almost with no practice. I'm not bragging at all, but when I was about 14 I became crazy with Chopin's compositions esp Polonaise in A flat. Soon thereafter I discovered the Etudes and I thought Op 10 #1 was "easy" in all my innocence then. Yes, there are stretches (c-f-c-f going up; and melodic top notes at the end going down) but the faster you play the easier they get. You can't play c-f-c-f slowly; you must leap, slap the notes and flex your wrist a bit. Hey I'm no musician; more an amateur pianist type.

Now, the next one #2 I am still trying. I have no clue as to how to relax the 3-4-5 fingers and get through it at speed. Op 10 #4 is not that hard either. Therefore many pianists program it. They never play #1 or #2 at a recital. But I heard Ashkenazy play both in succession at a recital circa 1972 or so, and he did very well (like in his first Melodia Societ discs).

Thanks for listening.

abagdasa · «Reply #16 on: July 11, 2009, 05:40:10 AM »

Lol, listen to 3:39-4:54 of "Cziffra's Crazy Improv"/Warm-up.

He rips off a practically flawless (heard 1 mistake) 62/79 bars of 10/1 in 1m15s. That equates to the full etude in about 1m34s making his average pace MM=204!!!

The Cortot MM=176 yields a 1m49s piece duration, assuming, of course, that rubato (even gypsy rubato lol) influences the mean passage speed to tend to the MM as t -->infinity

scottical · «Reply #17 on: July 13, 2009, 07:03:00 PM »

I performed the piece Sunday morning for a church service. I was curious to see how performance anxiety would affect the piece, but overall, I think I pulled it off nicely. I haven't had too many problems recently, but bar 31 still catches me up every time. The stretch between the 4th and 5th fingers of the right hand from "A" up to "E flat" is difficult to maneuver because of the nasty B-flat in the way of the fourth finger.

I started practicing Op. 10 no's 2, 7, and 8 this week. Of these, I would say no. 8 is by far the most difficult. All of the fancy fingerwork required - particularly in the coda and the tricky four-note slurs in the middle section makes it extremely difficult.

By the way, I'm surprised that nobody finds Op. 25 no. 6 to be more challenging than 10 no. 2, because not only are there lightening fast chromatic runs with the weakest fingers, but they also have to be synchronized with the thumb and second fingers, not to mention all the potential thumb problems when brought up to speed. I don't know that I would ever be able to perform this etude...

nearenough · «Reply #18 on: July 14, 2009, 10:56:12 PM »

I've been trying Op. 25 #6 ("thirds") for years. I can play most of it at the upper average base amateur level, but the top of the second page(M 11 and 13) I can never get up to speed. I have 2 fingerings for it. My favored one (first published one) requires a thumb leap from F double sharp (G) to E which just inevitably is awkward and slowing. The second fingering starts with 3-5, 2-4, 1-3 and so forth but feels clumsy.

Any magic tricks for this, anyone?

langsam · «Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 05:43:01 AM »

Quote from: nearenough on July 11, 2009, 03:13:25 AM

I am 71 and can still play this etude fairly well almost with no practice. I'm not bragging at all, but when I was about 14 I became crazy with Chopin's compositions esp Polonaise in A flat. Soon thereafter I discovered the Etudes and I thought Op 10 #1 was "easy" in all my innocence then. Yes, there are stretches (c-f-c-f going up; and melodic top notes at the end going down) but the faster you play the easier they get. You can't play c-f-c-f slowly; you must leap, slap the notes and flex your wrist a bit. Hey I'm no musician; more an amateur pianist type.

i don't see any reason that you can't do something on slow while able to do that when playing fast

unless you adopt some methods unconsciously when doing it fast. For me, I think the arm movement matters a lot in this etude. (op.10/1)

scottical · «Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 06:12:28 PM »

I think the primary intent for this etude is to develop specifically the technique of stretching and contracting the right hand at speed, nearenough. To play this piece well the wrist should be flexible enough to maneuver wide spans in a sempre legato manner.

m · «Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 07:33:10 PM »

This etude requires very smart approach. The main thing here is a very light fingers and "fast" attack of the keys, as opposed to a regular mistake of trying to play it forte all the way through and pushing the keys too hard, so the fingers get stuck in the keys.
In fact, the right hand plays pianissimo for the entire piece, only making creschendo on the top octave. The main "body" of the sound comes from the LH, smart use of pedal, and that creschendo, and is rather acoustical effect.

The main dificulty of this etude is to play it with no one single missing note. Other than that etude is fairly easy.

Best, M

nearenough · «Reply #22 on: July 16, 2009, 02:26:39 AM »

Marik: ...The main thing here is a very light fingers and "fast" attack of the keys, as opposed to a regular mistake of trying to play it forte all the way through and pushing the keys too hard....

N: I agree with this. Fast and light.

That's what I implied in my remark about "slow" practice. Whether it is real, or just in my imagination, the momentum of the arm going up and down aids in the execution. I find it awkward trying to "slow" practice c-f-c-f stretches. Scriabin injured his hand and Schumann wound up with a permanent paralysis (or other injury) trying impossible stretches, let the unwary be warned.

m · «Reply #23 on: July 17, 2009, 06:15:39 AM »

Quote from: nearenough on July 16, 2009, 02:26:39 AM

That's what I implied in my remark about "slow" practice. Whether it is real, or just in my imagination, the momentum of the arm going up and down aids in the execution. I find it awkward trying to "slow" practice c-f-c-f stretches.

If you can do it fast but cannot do it slow then you do something wrong there.
But first, one should be very careful with "momentum of the arm", as it (from my experience) can give a wrong message to some folks. You know, it is like "arm weight"--everybody talks about it, while only very few have some idea as for what it is. In essense, there is no arm momentum in this etude. There is rather very flexible wrist and arm just follows it.
Second, unless you have very small hand there are no stretches there, or at least one should not treat them as such, as psycologically it creates more difficulties. On those wider figurations rather slightly twist your hand clockwise, so the 4th comfortably reaches C with no stretch.
Third, re-group hard passages from the wide position (i.e. CGCE-CGCE) to a narrow one (i.e. C-GCEC-GCEC, etc.). This (again plycologically) will remove many difficulties (did I mention that etude needs a smart approach

)

Best, M

scottmcc · «Reply #24 on: July 17, 2009, 12:26:48 PM »

Quote from: marik on July 17, 2009, 06:15:39 AM

If you can do it fast but cannot do it slow then you do something wrong there.
But first, one should be very careful with "momentum of the arm", as it (from my experience) can give a wrong message to some folks. You know, it is like "arm weight"--everybody talks about it, while only very few have some idea as for what it is. In essense, there is no arm momentum in this etude. There is rather very flexible wrist and arm just follows it.
Second, unless you have very small hand there are no stretches there, or at least one should not treat them as such, as psycologically it creates more difficulties. On those wider figurations rather slightly twist your hand clockwise, so the 4th comfortably reaches C with no stretch.
Third, re-group hard passages from the wide position (i.e. CGCE-CGCE) to a narrow one (i.e. C-GCEC-GCEC, etc.). This (again plycologically) will remove many difficulties (did I mention that etude needs a smart approach )

Best, M

marik, it's posts like this that make me wish you would post more often! I can't claim to be at a level to play this etude, but these little pearls are certainly applicable to a wide variety of pieces, and I'm certainly going to try this approach. thanks again!

claude_debussy · «Reply #25 on: July 22, 2009, 03:25:08 PM »

Quote from: marik on July 17, 2009, 06:15:39 AM

On those wider figurations rather slightly twist your hand clockwise, so the 4th comfortably reaches C with no stretch.

What does "twist your hand clockwise" mean?

ramseytheii · «Reply #26 on: July 22, 2009, 09:07:56 PM »

Quote from: claude_debussy on July 22, 2009, 03:25:08 PM

What does "twist your hand clockwise" mean?

Sounds like a description of forearm rotation to me; you'll notice that holding your arm parallel to the floor, rotating the forearm away from you (I believe this is supination, the opposite of pronation), the direction of the hand's movement expresses clockwise.

Walter Ramsey

scottmcc · «Reply #27 on: July 22, 2009, 09:20:34 PM »

supination means rotating the hand towards a palm up configuration, such as one would use to hold a cup of soup, which is the mnemonic used by many med students. pronation is palm down. for the right hand, supination is clockwise, for the left counter.

ramseytheii · «Reply #28 on: July 22, 2009, 10:56:11 PM »

Quote from: scottmcc on July 22, 2009, 09:20:34 PM

supination means rotating the hand towards a palm up configuration, such as one would use to hold a cup of soup, which is the mnemonic used by many med students. pronation is palm down. for the right hand, supination is clockwise, for the left counter.

I was right!

Walter Ramsey

rgh613 · «Reply #29 on: June 01, 2011, 08:27:54 PM »

Quote from: scottical on July 13, 2009, 07:03:00 PM

I performed the piece Sunday morning for a church service. I was curious to see how performance anxiety would affect the piece, but overall, I think I pulled it off nicely. I haven't had too many problems recently, but bar 31 still catches me up every time. The stretch between the 4th and 5th fingers of the right hand from "A" up to "E flat" is difficult to maneuver because of the nasty B-flat in the way of the fourth finger...

I'm a new member, so please forgive me for resurrecting this 2-year-old thread. I identified with your comment re "The stretch between the 4th and 5th fingers of the right hand from "A" up to "E flat" is difficult to maneuver because of the nasty B-flat in the way of the fourth finger..." as I've tried for decades to play this ascending passage at speed using 1/C - 2/Eb - 4/A - 5/Eb', always cursing that Bb for getting in the way. A few years ago, I decided to try 3/A instead, and while my hands are smaller-than-average and the new 2/Eb - 3/A was not at first comfortable, the new 3/A - 5/Eb' WAS, and it made the entire passage easier. I also did some of the Cortot preliminary studies, which helped quite a bit (playing chords in 1-2, 2-3, 5, and then chords in 1-2-3 and 5).

keyboardclass · «Reply #30 on: June 02, 2011, 05:24:11 AM »

Why always bar 31? I find 30 and 32 far more challenging!

nanabush · «Reply #31 on: June 02, 2011, 06:16:27 AM »

I'm working on this too! Bar 31 I decided to use 3 instead of four. My middle finger is long as hell, so it can just force it's way onto the A without chopping up the legato.

What I found to be the biggest royal pain in the a** was measure 43... my hand would always start being a little worn at this point, and I'd just mash my hand on that figuration and ruin it. I decided there to just not use the pinky and do 4321 4321 5431 5431 (pinky coming in when it switches to D#).

rgh613 · «Reply #32 on: June 02, 2011, 12:56:20 PM »

Quote from: keyboardclass on June 02, 2011, 05:24:11 AM

Why always bar 31? I find 30 and 32 far more challenging!

Interesting - bar 30 (the Gb octave in the bass) I descend as 5-4-2-1 (easier for me than bar 31). Bar 32 (the Cb in bass) I descend as 5-3-2-1 and find it as easy as bar 1.

Just illustrates how everyone's hand is different, resulting in different difficulties for each of us.

keyboardclass · «Reply #33 on: June 03, 2011, 04:38:28 AM »

Quote from: nanabush on June 02, 2011, 06:16:27 AM

I'm working on this too! Bar 31 I decided to use 3 instead of four.

I noticed I do too. Where does the four come from?

pianowolfi · «Reply #34 on: June 03, 2011, 09:10:07 AM »

Quote from: m on July 17, 2009, 06:15:39 AM

If you can do it fast but cannot do it slow then you do something wrong there.
But first, one should be very careful with "momentum of the arm", as it (from my experience) can give a wrong message to some folks. You know, it is like "arm weight"--everybody talks about it, while only very few have some idea as for what it is. In essense, there is no arm momentum in this etude. There is rather very flexible wrist and arm just follows it.
Second, unless you have very small hand there are no stretches there, or at least one should not treat them as such, as psycologically it creates more difficulties. On those wider figurations rather slightly twist your hand clockwise, so the 4th comfortably reaches C with no stretch.
Third, re-group hard passages from the wide position (i.e. CGCE-CGCE) to a narrow one (i.e. C-GCEC-GCEC, etc.). This (again plycologically) will remove many difficulties (did I mention that etude needs a smart approach )

Best, M

Thank you Marik, very good advice, as always!

iratior · «Reply #35 on: June 04, 2011, 08:05:03 AM »

At measure 17 of the Opus 10 no. 1, one is somewhat invited to experiment with fingering the right hand as 1345, and so on. Is anybody out there using 1345-type fingering for any of the arpeggios, and if so, how do they like it?

chomikchomik · «Reply #36 on: June 04, 2011, 08:35:28 AM »

It is so hard, becouse Chopin used very light piano and it was much easier for him and his students to play it I suppose.

nyiregyhazi · «Reply #37 on: June 04, 2011, 10:03:32 AM »

Quote from: iratior on June 04, 2011, 08:05:03 AM

At measure 17 of the Opus 10 no. 1, one is somewhat invited to experiment with fingering the right hand as 1345, and so on. Is anybody out there using 1345-type fingering for any of the arpeggios, and if so, how do they like it?

Yes, I do a lot of these. I'm still not 100% sure if it's better, but it's a very useful fingering to practise.

nyiregyhazi · «Reply #38 on: June 04, 2011, 10:06:10 AM »

Quote from: chomikchomik on June 04, 2011, 08:35:28 AM

It is so hard, becouse Chopin used very light piano and it was much easier for him and his students to play it I suppose.

I've never been convinced by that. What's easier? A springy Yamaha action or an ancient upright with a super-light action? I imagine Chopin's pianos were closer to the latter.

iratior · «Reply #39 on: June 04, 2011, 05:20:27 PM »

This morning I did some experimentation with 1345-type fingering for the arpeggios that seem to "deserve it" most. I was very favorably impressed with the results. 1345-type fingering seemed to 1) break the monotony of 1235 and 1245 fingerings, 2) be easier to do, 3) reduce fatigue, and 4) improve tone and accuracy. It just takes some getting used to, because you know you're doing something Czerny probably wouldn't have approved of.

chomikchomik · «Reply #40 on: June 04, 2011, 07:58:35 PM »

Quote from: nyiregyhazi on June 04, 2011, 10:06:10 AM

I've never been convinced by that. What's easier? A springy Yamaha action or an ancient upright with a super-light action? I imagine Chopin's pianos were closer to the latter.

I think its easier becouse the keys are not going so deep if you know what i mean. You can try play it on keyboard and you see it's much easier. Ofc Chopin piano wasn't as light as keyboards, but was much lighter than our pianos. The other thing is to play it with the right articulation, but technically it was much easier for him, I suppose.

nyiregyhazi · «Reply #41 on: June 04, 2011, 09:08:57 PM »

Quote from: chomikchomik on June 04, 2011, 07:58:35 PM

I think its easier becouse the keys are not going so deep if you know what i mean. You can try play it on keyboard and you see it's much easier. Ofc Chopin piano wasn't as light as keyboards, but was much lighter than our pianos. The other thing is to play it with the right articulation, but technically it was much easier for him, I suppose.

While the sheer weight of some actions is very difficult, quite honestly I find keyboards harder to play than most pianos. I find the action uncomfortably light on my clp 370.

rgh613 · «Reply #42 on: June 05, 2011, 02:03:44 AM »

Quote from: iratior on June 04, 2011, 08:05:03 AM

At measure 17 of the Opus 10 no. 1, one is somewhat invited to experiment with fingering the right hand as 1345, and so on. Is anybody out there using 1345-type fingering for any of the arpeggios, and if so, how do they like it?

1-2-4-5 works well for me; I've never felt the need to try 1-3-4-5, but after I read your post, I did, and it just didn't feel "right." As always, everyone has a different hand.

nyiregyhazi · «Reply #43 on: June 05, 2011, 02:54:29 AM »

Quote from: rgh613 on June 05, 2011, 02:03:44 AM

1-2-4-5 works well for me; I've never felt the need to try 1-3-4-5, but after I read your post, I did, and it just didn't feel "right." As always, everyone has a different hand.

I don't think this one is so much about a "different" hand as the experience of doing it. I think few people would like it at first impression. I didn't feel comfortable first time I tried this, but I had a very strong feeling that in the long run it could be easier than stretching 2 over. I'm still not 100% sure if I prefer it, but it's definitely done plenty of good for my weaker fingers to work on it. It's a very useful fingering to practise.

iratior · «Reply #44 on: June 06, 2011, 12:56:15 AM »

I continue to be very favorably impressed with the merits of using 1345-type fingering for some of the arpeggios that seem most to call for it. And yes, it is also good for strengthening the fingers involved.

nanabush · «Reply #45 on: June 06, 2011, 04:08:15 PM »

1-3-4-5 freaks me out in that piece. That is probably the only fingering I avoid (except in one or two cases). For the a minor bit (I think that's what you were referring to as m17), I stick with 1245. I find the the C and the E way too hard to voice with 3 and 4, 2-4-5 has way more stability, and thumb to index has SO MUCH flexibility!

rgh613 · «Reply #46 on: June 06, 2011, 09:10:12 PM »

Quote from: nanabush on June 06, 2011, 04:08:15 PM

1-3-4-5 freaks me out in that piece. That is probably the only fingering I avoid (except in one or two cases). For the a minor bit (I think that's what you were referring to as m17), I stick with 1245. I find the the C and the E way too hard to voice with 3 and 4, 2-4-5 has way more stability, and thumb to index has SO MUCH flexibility!

Agree - I learned it with 1234 back in 1977 and haven't looked back.

Regards

stephenv · «Reply #47 on: June 21, 2011, 04:06:42 PM »

I think the challenge in this Etude is to learn how to cope with "extended" hand positions in the RH WITHOUT injuring your hand. Secret:avoid overly extending...holding on to notes longer than you need to.

How to do this? Learning to make the "leap" between fingers. Practicing slowly, you say. Ok the danger in this is that we tend to want to play the arpeggio LEGATO when we practice it slowly. What we need to train our hands to do via the brain...is from the first note in the RH Play the thumb..release the thumb quickly and the second finger LEAPS to the G ...and this is the catch: RELEASE the thumb IMMEDIATELY and leaping at the same time to G with 2nd finger. You work thru the whole arpegiated figure RELEASING the previous finger.... using this approach SLOWLY. What you want to avoid like the plague is unconciously holding on to the previous note and therefore setting up tension which can murder your hands.

Trust me: Chopin's NEW piano technique takes full advantage of the sostenuto pedal! So don't think you have to FIRST play everything legato THEN use the pedal as in the old school pre Chopin days.

Once you've imprinted the feeling of playing the arpeggio's with no tension you can begin to speed things up gradually. Hint: Take only ONE of the arpeggio patterns to get the FEELING in your hands. Think of it as programming your brain . Eventually playing the patterns will become automatic and you'll do it with ease.

One way of thinking of it traditionally: open hand / closed hand positions over and over in the RH.

Results will NOT happen overnight..this is a long haul practice. Patience..not forcing. Take small sections of the piece...work on those...you might find the most difficult arpeggio pattern and spend time working on just that.

Fluency will allow for freedom to express.

nyiregyhazi · «Reply #48 on: June 21, 2011, 04:36:23 PM »

"How to do this? Learning to make the "leap" between fingers. Practicing slowly, you say. Ok the danger in this is that we tend to want to play the arpeggio LEGATO when we practice it slowly. What we need to train our hands to do via the brain...is from the first note in the RH Play the thumb..release the thumb quickly and the second finger LEAPS to the G ...and this is the catch: RELEASE the thumb IMMEDIATELY and leaping at the same time to G with 2nd finger. You work thru the whole arpegiated figure RELEASING the previous finger.... using this approach SLOWLY. What you want to avoid like the plague is unconciously holding on to the previous note and therefore setting up tension which can murder your hands."

To be honest, I really couldn't agree much less with that. It all depends on where you're coming from and perhaps for some small hands it might be a problem to span that legato. However, I've found that the more legato I get, the better. Surely a perfect fifth shouldn't even be a problem for smaller hands? It's an etude in flexibility. If to span a 5th causes tension, something is being done badly wrong. However, if you duck right out of spanning that interval in every part of your practise, how is the hand supposed to become more flexible?

There's not a single instance when I wouldn't personally start with full legato. Even at speed, I wouldn't even contemplate a hop in the first bar. I do use miniscule ones very rarely elsewhere- although the sensation is actually far closer to that of playing legato at a slow tempo than of notably separating- even on the interval of a 7th. The gap is so short that you never feel disconnected from the instrument.

"Trust me: Chopin's NEW piano technique takes full advantage of the sostenuto pedal! So don't think you have to FIRST play everything legato THEN use the pedal as in the old school pre Chopin days."

And the reason Chopin specifically wrote "legato" is what exactly? I wouldn't take that as meaning you're supposed to strain, but I'm pretty sure that didn't mean "don't worry about legato". Why would Chopin mean the absolute opposite of an explicit instruction? Clearly he's at least asking for it to be strived towards as an ideal- even with the most liberal interpretation possible of why he wrote that. It's an etude in opening the hand- not in hopping.

pianisten1989 · «Reply #49 on: June 21, 2011, 06:11:22 PM »

Quote from: stephenv on June 21, 2011, 04:06:42 PM

I think the challenge in this Etude is to learn how to cope with "extended" hand positions in the RH WITHOUT injuring your hand. Secret:avoid overly extending...holding on to notes longer than you need to.

How to do this? Learning to make the "leap" between fingers. Practicing slowly, you say. Ok the danger in this is that we tend to want to play the arpeggio LEGATO when we practice it slowly. What we need to train our hands to do via the brain...is from the first note in the RH Play the thumb..release the thumb quickly and the second finger LEAPS to the G ...and this is the catch: RELEASE the thumb IMMEDIATELY and leaping at the same time to G with 2nd finger. You work thru the whole arpegiated figure RELEASING the previous finger.... using this approach SLOWLY. What you want to avoid like the plague is unconciously holding on to the previous note and therefore setting up tension which can murder your hands.

Trust me: Chopin's NEW piano technique takes full advantage of the sostenuto pedal! So don't think you have to FIRST play everything legato THEN use the pedal as in the old school pre Chopin days.

Once you've imprinted the feeling of playing the arpeggio's with no tension you can begin to speed things up gradually. Hint: Take only ONE of the arpeggio patterns to get the FEELING in your hands. Think of it as programming your brain . Eventually playing the patterns will become automatic and you'll do it with ease.

One way of thinking of it traditionally: open hand / closed hand positions over and over in the RH.

Results will NOT happen overnight..this is a long haul practice. Patience..not forcing. Take small sections of the piece...work on those...you might find the most difficult arpeggio pattern and spend time working on just that.

Fluency will allow for freedom to express.

"leap between fingers?" what? So why didn't chopin write non-legato then? or "Use full pedal, and play staccato"? You know what, it's not even worth it.