nothing wrong with long practice time

[drazh]

hi there
what is wrong with long practice time(ie.>6 hours aday)?
if you have a good program and strong motivation you can play as long as you can.
I think there is only one rule of thumb: practic as long as you like
some people say piano practice is similar to body building etc.
but I think it is not right to compare piano practice to anything else.
If you want to be an artist just practice ,practice and  practice

[learner of liszt]

True, a lot of practice is good, but overworking your arms deprives the muscles of blood and oxygen after a long time, and this in turn reduces your practice quality, so that it takes longer to achieve less than you were achieving in a few minutes when you first started. I once heard that the greats never practiced more than 2 hours a day, but I doubt this is true. I'd say 5 hours is a good time to stop.

[go12_3]

If you really want a *burn out*  then practicing 6 hours a day will help that out.
It may not be anything wrong in practicing for several hours a day, as long as you have
the mental and physcial capacity to do so.  Each person is different with thier abilities
and skills in playing piano.  Some don't have the hours of the day to devote themselves
to practicing for long periods of time.  I am lucky if I can get 2 hours in and that is a bonus
for me.  Whereas, I have the violin to practice also. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[omar_roy]

Sure, there's nothing wrong with practicing 6+ hours a day...if it's real practice.

I highly doubt anyone who claims they are practicing 6 hours a day is actually doing it.  Sure, you might play 6 hours a day, but practicing 6 hours a day is different.  However, ask any professional pianist and they will tell you that it simply isn't worth it to practice for more than 4 hours a day, maybe 5.  At that point, if you've been practicing diligently and intensely with good focus, your brain would be burning out, your fingers would be tired, and you would be running the risk of injury.

Simply put, the likelihood that you are actually truly practicing for 6 hours a day is almost non-existent, and it's just not worth the risk or the time to put in those extra hours.

Furthermore, if it takes you 6 hours a day to accomplish something, then it's not more practicing that needs to be done, you need to look over your practice methods and improve them. 

[langsam]

i tried practising for extremely long time, about 6+ hours, it's very tiring indeed, and the yield is not much more than 4 hours of practice.


i would like to share my view about practising long.

firstly , i think it wouldn't be possible for an ordinary human being to keep being concentrated for so long, personally i would develop headaches if i went straight for 4 hours or more, which effectively prevents any further progress.

i think a way to work around this is to plan my practices, i experimented with a few "ways" to practice. One very important thing i noticed is that, including a break in the right time would be a very good idea.

Where to put the break in my practices? I do some brainstorming and thinks that it won't be wise to practice straight for more than 2 hours because every following minute is worthing less and less. So why not have a break after practising about 2 hours? a break of 45 minutes+ would resume my mental status and makes me more "motivated" to practice due to "boredom" in my breaks (actually not boring... but i can't describe it in words)

To fully utilize the break times i sometimes treat my lunch time as a break, that means practising for a while in the morning could be a good idea to use my time.

Assume i started practising at 10:00 a.m. , having lunch at noon, i practiced for 2 hours, i resumed practising at 1:00 p.m. till about 3:00 p.m. , i take another break of an hour, then practice from 4:00 p.m. till 6:00 p.m. Then i have practiced 6 hours yet possibly yield much more than practising straight for 6 hours.

of course, if you're allowed, using the dinner time as break would be even better, that means you got a rather free afternoon for things other than piano, unfortunately, my parents don't allow me to practice in the evening/at night.

Other than breaks, i somehow thinks that a well-planned practice is also a way to reduce tireness and keep myself focused, i would not practice difficult things (to me) for every hours, i would make it more balanced with some more easier and relaxing things,  if i couldn't practice a difficult thing for , say, 3 hours, why not cut it into 2 hours and enjoy my extra 1 hour playing easier stuffs?

so, when i plan my practices

Morning Practice, about 2 hours: i make use of my concentration and work on most important things, i have only 1 morning practice coz people would kill my if i practice too early  

Break: Lunchtime + free time.

Practice(1) about 2 hours: things that don't demand much concentration

Break:free time, perhaps some websurfing
Or  one large break and go somewhere else for fun.

Practice(2), about 2 hours: things like technical drills, or if i take a break long enough i could practice things more important again.

then it's about dinner time, after dinner i can't practice any more so .. well, 6 hours is my limit.


I somehow thinks that 2,2,2 practice isn't the best but i have no choice.  2,,1.25,1.25,,,,1.5 would even be better.  ("," means breaks), 2 hours in the morning where i have highest concentration, then two 75 minutes practice somewhere in the afternoon where i am free enough to find just 2.5 hours for practice, and one 90 minutes in the evening, when i regained energy and concentration after a tasty dinner    **dreams**



I don't speak English well... i hope you understand my point.

[drazh]

hi there
have you ever seen the above mentioned risk to anyone?
usually my practice time is:(when I am free)
8-12 am with 15min break every 1 hour
2-6 pm again with 15min break every 1 hour
10-12 pm with 15min break every 1 hour
best wishes

[imbetter]

The most I've ever practiced in a day was nine hours once and my hands were TOTALLY burned out for the next two days. Usually on days without school I try to do four hours and two with school and that works fine for me.

[richard black]

It does depend what you're doing. I sometimes rehearse chamber music/songs/opera for 10 hours a day, several days in a row, with no ill effects, but of course one isn't actually playing for all of that time - probably around two-thirds, by my best estimate. And that sort of music isn't as physically taxing as the sort of solo piano repertoire you might end up practising for 6+ hours a day....

[ahinton]

Here's an extract from a recent programme note that refers to this very topic; admittedly, its circumstances are truly exceptional, but the subject matter is nevertheless germane to the topic here (especially towards the close of the penultimate paragraph) and the note was written by of today's most remarkable organists (and it is worth bearing in mind that extended period of organ practice can sometimes use up a good deal more physical energy than similar length bouts of piano practice).


Perhaps the biggest difficulty with a piece of such length is the fact that it is almost impossible to get any continuity into the learning process. The key to cracking any difficult piece is daily repetition. Repetition of a difficult passage over, say, 2 hours, feeds it into the short-term memory – it is possible to press a passage into quite an advanced stage of apparent preparation in this way. The player goes away, sleeps, come back the next day and works at the same passage. He feels upset because he can’t instantly play it as well as he did at the end of the previous session. Only 75% of it has remained in his short-term memory – it’s fading – the forgetting process has set in. What happens if he leaves the passage for two days? There may be only 60% left. Three days? 50% perhaps, or less. A week?... Only repetition every day makes the short-term memory feed into the long-term – and it is only when the whole piece is resting on the sea of the subconscious, fully embedded in the long-term memory, that one really senses progress. The music seems to be finding its own momentum, the fingers moving ahead of the brain. For the performer the thrill is at that point. With music such as this the energy seems almost unbearable, awesome, numinous. Perhaps this is what Moses felt when he hid in a cleft in the rock and saw God pass by.
Sadly, in spite of my thousands of hours, I’m still not at that point. With such a huge number of notes to learn, daily repetition of specific passages becomes impossible without sacrificing other passages. Two days ago I determined to crack a specific passage in the Toccata so that it would not be so painful for you today. After two hours it seemed that I had succeeded to a large extent. On returning to the passage yesterday it was obvious that, as on so many previous occasions, little had stuck and the passage would go on resisting all assault for some time to come. A much slower learning process seems the only way to go about things – or to concentrate on much smaller sections over a much longer period of time.

I spent a week in Norway in late April – a long-standing commitment. On my return I opened up the middle movement and played variation 25. After a week away from the music it was almost as if I was seeing it for the first time. Less than 10% remained. I felt utterly crushed, destroyed, and had to stop playing, unable to return and play another note for two days. I realised that if I went on trying to prepare the whole Symphony it would completely defeat me, so something had to go. I decided to drop the second movement and concentrate on the third, resurrecting the first during the month of May. But in May I was struck down with a resurgence of cellulitis (apologies – a gentleman does not speak of his ailments) in my right leg. I lost nearly two weeks of rehearsal and had to ease off on the 12-hour days thereafter.  If I were to play through the last movement every day it was evident there would be no time to put the first movement back together.
(In parentheses here – to those who might consider running 12 hour or longer rehearsal schedules over a long period of time – there are unpleasant side effects: depression and hallucination are among them – a perception of non existent people standing nearby and behind. Towards the end of the session I often felt the room dissolve to be replaced with the sense of being in another space, another room of completely different size and form – a kind of hallucinating dizziness. One needs sunlight and fresh air.)

Do not misunderstand me – this is truly great music. At its full length OS2 runs to seven and a quarter hours (an amusing though unimportant fact – it means that this one work is nearly an entire hour longer than all the organ music of Messiaen played end to end). I remain as determined as St. George to master this dragon. I have plans for a change of tactics in my siege of the piece and I am confident that you will experience it caged and mastered in 2010.


The practice times here are all the more challenging to the extent that they were being invested in just a single work, albeit one of almost unprecedented magnitude. The piece concerned is the second of Sorabji's three symphonies for organ solo and the organist is Kevin Bowyer; since his première of the symphony's finale 23 days ago, it has been realised that the entire work actually plays for seven and three quarter hours, not seven and a quarter - and it contains some of the most monstrously difficult music ever composed for the organ.

Shura Cherkassky said that he always practised for four hours per session - no more, no less. In truth, there is no ideal practice session length; practice schedules need from time to time to be adapted to suit the circumstances. The only sensible advice seems to be to bear in mind Kevin Bowyer's implied homily about the potential effects of particularly lengthy bouts of concentrated practising.

Best,

Alistair

[omar_roy]

hi there
have you ever seen the above mentioned risk to anyone?
usually my practice time is:(when I am free)
8-12 am with 15min break every 1 hour
2-6 pm again with 15min break every 1 hour
10-12 pm with 15min break every 1 hour
best wishes

I sincerely and openly doubt that you practice for 10 hours per day, regardless of the breaks you take.  If you do indeed practice for that long, then I apologize for my ignorance and submit before you in humble repentance and respect for your god like focus and ability to channel your mind into one concentration for such an extended period of time without experiencing ill-effects.

But like I said.  I call BS.

[perfect_pitch]

I've managed to do 8 hours every now and then - you wouldn't call that bullshit would you???

That was a little while back, and I did stop every 2 hours for a quick break and lunch...

Sure if you were a uni student living by themselves, then you could MAYBE get away with 10 hours... but playing after 10pm... I doubt it - your neighbours would be threatening you with death if you played after 10pm.

[go12_3]

When I was a piano performance major in college,  I recall doing 6-7 hours practice sessions almost each day in order to meet the demands of  a killing reperatoire and scales, double thirds, etc.,  because of an inner driven force to DO IT as my mind and body got trained to play such long hours, however, my back started to give me fits....yet still I practiced.  There was no time to be wasted because of getting those pieces polished and ready to perform.  Ah, the pressures to be accomplished!

best wishes,

go12_3 

[omar_roy]

I'm a Piano Performance Major, and I regularly do about 4 hours a day, sometimes as high as 6 hours, but I've never felt it necessary to practice for more than 6 hours in one day.  The benefits of practicing for more than 4 hours are minimal.


@perfect_pitch
Yes, I can believe doing 8 hours in a day on occasion.  We've all had practice days like those.  But doing 10 hours a day on a [semi]consistent basis? Yes, that IS what I would call a nice steaming pile of BS.  But hey, if he can practice intensely focused for that long and have amazing results, then more power to him.  But the likelihood of him practicing for 10 hours a day, staying focused for those 10 hours, and not experiencing headaches and other side effects from being sedentary and focused for so long? Slim to none.

I'm not talking about hours spent at the piano.  Anyone can dick around at the piano for 10 hours. I'm talking about intense work and goal-focused practice.  Not just playing through pieces over and over.

And again, if you honestly deem it necessary to practice longer than 6 hours a day, then it's not more practice that you need, its a serious revision of your practice methods.  Having more efficient practice methods will cut down on the time you need to accomplish a certain goal, leaving you more time to work on more music.  It simply isn't worth it to practice for more than 6 hours in a day.  By then your brain has lost its ability to focus properly and it's not absorbing anything.

Think of it this way: Conservatory/Music School professors (DMAs and MMs) spend most of their time teaching.  When do they have time to practice for recitals, and when they do have recitals, why are they top notch?  Not because they practice 10 hours a day.  They simply don't have time to practice 10, 8, 6, or even 4 hours a day sometimes. They have limited time to practice, and because of this, they make the most out of the time they have through having more efficient practice methods.

Becoming efficient at practicing is more valuable than practicing for 10 hours a day.  Set a time limit on your practicing for 4 hours and stick to it.  You'd be surprised at how much you can accomplish if you're working against the clock.  You learn to make every minute count and you become better at practicing and you learn music faster.  Eventually you become able to do more and more within that 4 hour time span.

[timothy42b]

I have always believed in short efficient practice.

But I am not quite as fixed in that opinion anymore, having read Gladwell's Outliers recently.  He cites the oft repeated "10,000 hours" to become expert at anything, and talks about Levitin's research with piano students. 

When you separate the ones who will truly excel at performance from the ones who will be enthusiastic amateurs or music education students, you find only one difference.  The ones who excel have managed to practice 10,000 hours.  Ah, but what about the ones who practice 10,000 hours and DON'T make it?  ........... there weren't any.  And this was true not just of music but of sports, computer programming, law, etc. 

If I played piano 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, like I go to work, I'd have my 10,000 hours in 5 years. 

[pianisten1989]

The thing is... It's not how long you practice, but how you do it. I play almost 12 hours every day, but if I feel I can't focus, och feel my arm hurts or whatever, I stop. One should practice as long as he/she manage to focus and without getting tensed. If one practice scales in 14 hours a day, without focusing, it wont help at all.

[richard black]

Ah, but what about the ones who practice 10,000 hours and DON'T make it?  ........... there weren't any.

But surely that's because the ones who clearly aren't going to make it have realised long before they get to 5000 hours and give it up as a bad job - ?

[zheer]

 I'm working on a number of piano music for a recital this year, I practice 45 minuts a day. The person helping  me prepare for this recital doesn't believe in hours of practice either, in fact a lot of the work is done away from the piano, pen in hand. Ok I'm not a concert pianist, but playing the notes fast, well ect ect is not the problem, it's knowing how the music should be played on the piano, for me and others hours of practice is a waste of time.

[drazh]

hi
what do mean by practice?
you divided it to hard practice which is highly concentrated work on hard piece
and light practice which is piano playing without much concentration
i ithink hard practice time is very limited  and long time cause complicaion eg headache etc
but light practice is also helpfull and can be as long as you wish
thanks

[omar_roy]

Practicing consists of work.  This "light" practice you speak of is simply playing your pieces without concentration, and if that's the case, then it's pointless.  If you're not focusing and concentrating on your work, then you're not accomplishing anything.

So the truth comes out.  You're not actually practicing for 10 hours.  Most of that time is simply playing your pieces without any specific goal in mind, and in order to achieve specific goals, you have to concentrate and focus on your work.

[amelialw]

I remember watching the video"Imagine...being a concert pianist" and one of the Julliard teacher's/professor's recommended 4-5 hrs of practice a day and if necessary 6 hrs and not more then that because you should not overwork your muscles

during school time during the past year (1st year piano major) i used to practice between 4-6& a half hrs a day and the 2 years before that when i was working on my ARCT Performance dip there were times when i even almost practiced for 7 hrs without noticing however i did have burn out's.

now i keep my practice time between 4-5+ hrs probably when school starts the max i will go to is 6

[epilate]

I prefer to not measure my practicing by time.  I simply practice the three or four pieces I am working on until I am done.  Usually I am done with a piece before the hour is up.  I believe more in what gets done and not at how much time is spent practicing.  If I am done with the piece in a half hour, I just get up.  I also like to throw some sightreading in every day to improve that skill.

When all is done, I probably do somewhere between four and five hours of practice/day.  But I dont care about the amount of time, but the quality of the work. 

Its like an artist who paints a picture.  They simply paint until they are finished.

[drazh]

Practicing consists of work.  This "light" practice you speak of is simply playing your pieces without concentration, and if that's the case, then it's pointless.  If you're not focusing and concentrating on your work, then you're not accomplishing anything.

So the truth comes out.  You're not actually practicing for 10 hours.  Most of that time is simply playing your pieces without any specific goal in mind, and in order to achieve specific goals, you have to concentrate and focus on your work.

I prefer playing piano than watching TV.why do you tihnk practice should always be so serious . to me it is just fun. If you do hard practice every minute it is hard for you to practice every hour.sure we gain less from light practice but that does not mean nothing .it depends on many factors

[omar_roy]

You don't accomplish anything by simply playing through your pieces mindlessly.  I don't know what you feel you accomplish by doing so.  If you're not focusing and concentrating on everything you're doing, then your "practice" is simply useless.  Practicing is work.  It's mental and physical WORK.  If you're not WORKING then you are not practicing.

[iroveashe]

Everyone seems to be obsessed with how much time at the piano they spend, not realizing than some, if not most of the learning process happens unconsciously while not at the piano (for example sleeping). Why does everyone think that? Probably from one of 3 reasons: (a) Logic, you simply think more time a the piano=bigger improvement; (b) Someone told you and you believed them; (c) You've tried dozens of learning and practicing approaches and arrived at this conclusion (which I doubt).

"Is it wrong?" you ask. That depends, the only way I could say it's wrong is if excessive practice leads to injury; if it doesn't, is it wrong to play over long periods of time, just for fun? Well you won't go to jail for it. But is necessary, and is it the most efficient way to practice? I'd certainly say not.

[odd_wanderer]

Quite frankly, one can over-practice. After all, after a certain point one's mind is no longer able to focus and take in information. Without proper divisions/breaks in practice one just ends up playing mindlessly.

I find that I usually practice for more than three-four hours at a time when I am starting to learn a new piece (at other times just on a whim). I spend six or more hours here but I use much of it to lay the groundwork--that is determining fingering, large phrases, attacks and touches, and playing though it once or twice to determine where I should divide the piece up for practice and to see the piece as a whole sum of its parts.

Napping is always nice during long practice sessions. Under the piano is fine. On the bench and over the music rest too. Sometimes, I just like to spend an entire day near a piano.

Eat away from the piano.

[terry_b]

If you have 6 hours per day to practice you are very lucky.  When I was a child I only got about 2 hours before my mother started begging me to stop. 

[go12_3]

Say, how I WISH to have MORE time to practice!!!  There is too much going on in my life
and I can't seem to focus upon my pieces.  However, with my limited time of practice I can
play through Chopin's Etude 10/1   HT!   woohoo!   Plus, Bach's Prelude in B Minor (WTC Book 2) with HT!(and I only started learning that in June!).  So , whatever works in practicing time will
have to do in the circumstances in our lives.  I'm lucky if I can get in one hour of practice, plus,  I have my violin to play.  I would love to practice more piano. ...*sigh*

best wishes, 

go12_3 

[gorucan]

hi there
what is wrong with long practice time(ie.>6 hours aday)?
if you have a good program and strong motivation you can play as long as you can.
I think there is only one rule of thumb: practic as long as you like
some people say piano practice is similar to body building etc.
but I think it is not right to compare piano practice to anything else.
If you want to be an artist just practice ,practice and  practice

In my opinion it's good to practice a LOOOT. But even if you have really really relaxed technique, when you pass 10 hours per day, you can get problems with nervs in wrists (as i did some months ago...) and then if that happens, you have to stop IMMEDIATELY for 1-3 days, then use those relaxing cremes and keep wrists warm... then slowly rise the ammount of hours starting with 4 per day again...

[zheer]

Everyone is different, I personally find that after 45 minut at the piano my brain shuts down. For those that have time I advice to practice in short periods regularly eveyday. I'm learning a Chopin sonata at the moment and preparing for a recital, I never practice more that 45 minut at a time, or more that 3 hours in total. 

[gorucan]

Everyone is different, I personally find that after 45 minut at the piano my brain shuts down. For those that have time I advice to practice in short periods regularly eveyday. I'm learning a Chopin sonata at the moment and preparing for a recital, I never practice more that 45 minut at a time, or more that 3 hours in total. 

Well my brain doesn't shut down after 45 minutes =)
Good luck with sonata. Which one are you playing? I played b-flat minor 2 yrs ago, wonderful piece. Although when you have "more sonatas and concertos and stuff stuff stuff..." to learn 3 hours aren't enough (would be paradox)

[zheer]

Good luck with sonata. Which one are you playing? I played b-flat minor 2 yrs ago, wonderful piece.

The b-minor sonata, it's going to take me along time, I think if I work on it daily for 20-30 minuts a day, in three to four years it will be learnt, crazy I know.
Yes the b-flat minor sonata is great. 

[gorucan]

The b-minor sonata, it's going to take me along time, I think if I work on it daily for 20-30 minuts a day, in three to four years it will be learnt, crazy I know.
Yes the b-flat minor sonata is great. 

Well, both, 2nd and 3rd sonatas are stunningly beatiful pieces!
If your maths is correct, you could manage it in half a year with only practising it around 3 hours per day (and even that would be long for 3h/day) =)

[artsyalchemist]

This is so hotly debated, and I nearly was going to pass on this topic, but I decided against that. 

I've been told anywhere from 2-10 hours a day; so naturally it's a little confusing.  To be frank, it depends on where you are with a piece. If it's new, then you will take longer time periods to learn the notes.  I noticed I have practiced less as the piece gets more polished.  Nonetheless, a couple things need to be clear.

1) Only work on one or two pieces a day.  That way, you'll have better retention of the music.  I always had to learn five pieces at a time when I was younger, and I've noticed the more I split them up, the farther I could go with them.
2) Don't practice for more than an hour at a time.  Perhaps it's because I have such a short attention span
or it's for injury prevention, but you will get more done if you break up your practice time and let your mind rest for a little bit.
3) The better quality of use of the practice time, the less time needed to practice.  So, if you can get all of your notes done in two hours, it is better than fooling around for five.

So that's my answer.

[rachfan]

A plan for a practice session is essential.  If one knows the plan and sticks to it, much can be methodically accomplished in less time.

Concentration is essential.  With unwavering concentration a pianist can make solid progress.  Once spurious thoughts enter the mind, attention wanders, and errors occur, it's time to leave the piano and go on to something else.

Once a plan and concentration are combined, practice becomes far more efficient and effective and takes less time.

 

[go12_3]

Really , just watch out for a *BURNOUT*   if practicing too long and too much and too seriously and too perfectly and too heavily....ugh!    
Just practice what you can and when you can and especially when your mind is clear and can
focus better upon the notes whatever else you need to practice upon.   

best wishes,

go12_3