Is Liszt's Totentanz The Hardest Piece?

[johnjwong]

Someone from another piano forum mentioned that the hardest classical piece not including 20th century was Liszt's Totentanz is this right?  Are there any other pieces that is beyond this piece in terms of difficulties levels?  Are there any piece that is just about the same difficulties as Totentanz?

[Goldberg]

No, Totentanz I would say is in the upper-intermediate to moderately-advanced category of Liszt pieces, as far as technical difficulties go. Besides, if you have the technique, you can play a pretty convincing version of the piece..there isn't much musical thought invovled. There are many pieces that are more difficult though, especially in Alkan's output (all of op. 39 just to start off). For Liszt, I can't really think of any particulars...most of his music isn't nearly as hard as it seems...though I garuantee if you played about 4 or 5 TE's at least, you could consider it a greater task than Totentanz (provided you play them correctly).

[willcowskitz]

The solo piano version is much more difficult than the orchestral with piano.  It is in my opinion a very difficult piece to play through with good clarity and logical continuity between the variations.  

I don't understand the statement of that it lacks musical thought?  This piece is very important to me because of it's theme, the death - I don't know many other pieces that deal with the death so vividly and beautifully as Totentanz.

However, I don't think its the most difficult piano piece ever written.

[donjuan]

I am workin on Totentanz right now, and I dont consider it the most difficult Liszt.  Opera Transcriptions like "Grand Concert Fantasy from Sonnambula" or "Reminiscences des Puritains" are SO SO much more difficult.  In fact, these works are so difficult, hardly anyone plays them.  It is quite possible only Liszt himself would be the one and only one to perform these works in the manner in which they are intended.  Sure, Leslie Howard has recordings of them, but they are quite choppy, and it is obvious he is struggling to keep up.  

Even shorter works like "Grand Galop Chromatique" is harder than Totentanz.  Totentanz fits the hands quite comfortably, and as a result we dont need excellent technique to play it well.  the Galop is filled with fingering hell that seems to be designed to be uncomfortable.

but dont get me wrong, there is nothing easy about Totentanz...
donjuan

[willcowskitz]

I find certain parts (Var. 1, 5) of Totentanz extremely difficult to play well without pedalling, then again I'm not someone to ask about technical difficulty.  But what I'm trying to say, its easy to make this piece sound ugly or irrational, and phrasing is at times (Var. 2 and the conclusive passages in near ending) difficult to bring out.

[thierry13]

The thing that make totentaz SOO hard is the presto parts at the beggining, well, at the RIGHT speed   Play all those notes in about 1 seconds(this is what gives 4 presto times), is quite foolish ... the rest of the piece is real hard, but is playable, since the presto parts seems not really playable correctly, i think only liszt could do those parts as fast as he intended... and it must be martellato and non-legato... but it's sure that this one is not the hardest of all  

[willcowskitz]

I disagree about the beginning "cadenzas", they're very mechanical and only require determined technical practice.  I would even make such a mad claim as that they're probably the easiest part of the whole piece, you can just bang through them without much attention to what they're meant to communicate.  They're like an explosive opening for the piece, the death walking on to the stage and spreading his cloak over the audience, something that gets their attention.  Virtuosic for the sake of virtuosity.

[thierry13]

Yeah but i haven' heard ANY interpretation that made it threw at the speed. The fastest i heard(who was quite insane), was the 3/4 of the real speed. It's why i say that playing it at REAL speed is near to impossible. ALL the notes are supposed to be played in one second, one and a half maximum. That why i say it's allmost impossible  

[willcowskitz]

Heh, tempo is rarely taken 100% strictly from the score.  The tempo markings also have ranges of BPM to them.  Plus those passages in the beginning are of piano alone, they're purposively shining moments of the piano itself, and pianist should see how to best play them in suitable tempo.  On top of all, I mostly ignore any markings related to dynamics or tempo in scores, because I believe all I need is in the notes - enough to let me know the piece, understand it, and transfer it forwards.  "I am just a messenger",  why would we all need to deliver the exact same message as the composer intended?  As I said in another thread, composer is just an interpreter as well, but on a larger scale.  This shouldn't make us mere musicians invalid at creation, even if we're creating on base of creations.  I've only heard two recordings of Totentanz, one by Cziffra and the other pianist I don't know.  Cziffra alters tempo a lot in his interpretations, to his advantage, and so he does in Totentanz.  His version has some horrible tempo alterations here and there, its a bit shame since his playing is very expressive in the more sensitive phases.  Also he seems to "bang" a bit too much at times, something I would blame Horowitz of, too.  

Oh yes, one thing is for sure:  If we could find recordings of Liszt's playing now (isn't it ironic how sound recording was being invented around last years of Liszt's life, just bit too late),  it would be a disappointment.  God made Liszt an inspirer for so many people and the stories about his divine playing will help keep something alive in those people.  The stories, the pictures of Liszt and his hands, blending into something colourful via our imagination is by far of greater energy than any recorded audio.

[ramseytheii]

It is too bad that so many people don't hear a lot of "musical thought" in Totentanz, and see passages such as the opening cadenzas as "mechanical."  Totentaz may have a lot of double octaves, or chords without a third, but it has a very special, unique, and original sound aesthetic.  Liszt was channeling a combination of the mystical modes of the ancient times, with the macabre blackness of the middle ages, through a Romantic sensibility.  This piece is great for the very reason that it lacks so many trappings of other Liszt works, like the virtuoso brilliance of the opera paraphrases or Paganini etudes.  It is a pared-down piano technique, devoted solely to creating this original sound atmosphere and aesthetic.  Listen again, and don't give up trying to find the depth in this piece (it's there!)!

Walter Ramsey

[mikey6]

Totentanz was a landmark for concerto writing and is a good work - leave it alone! so It's filled with 'all that's bad about Liszt' (someone's famous guy's quote) - who doesn't like a bit(!) of bombast here and there.
Listen to Zimerman's recording - the start is fast enough me thinks
And, no I don't think it's the hardest of his output - the Tannhauser transcription has been called impossible!

[soliloquy]

 


Godowsky Studies on Etudes by Chopin Op. 10 and 25
Alkan Etudes Op. 39
Alkan Etudes Op. 76
Beethoven-Liszt Symphony No. 9
Berlioz-Liszt Symphony Fantastique
Bach-Liszt Fantasia & Fugue
Reger Mozart Variations
Busoni Fantasia Contrupunctista (Original Version)

[bflatminor24]

Godowsky Studies on Etudes by Chopin Op. 10 and 25
Alkan Etudes Op. 39
Alkan Etudes Op. 76
Beethoven-Liszt Symphony No. 9
Berlioz-Liszt Symphony Fantastique
Bach-Liszt Fantasia & Fugue
Reger Mozart Variations
Busoni Fantasia Contrupunctista (Original Version)

AND

Reger Bach and Handel Variations,
Alkan Le preux, Op. 17

AND

All those ridiculous pieces you mentioned earlier.

Oh, and do you know if Sorabji wrote anything that isn't ridiculously hard? Something with similar difficulty to a Chopin Sonata or Rachmaninoff prelude or something.

[jre58591]

Oh, and do you know if Sorabji wrote anything that isn't ridiculously hard? Something with similar difficulty to a Chopin Sonata or Rachmaninoff prelude or something.

i may not be the best authority on this, but tehre are some pieces that arent insanely difficult. "in the hothouse" doesnt look or sound too difficult to me, and it also is a very beautiful piece. also, his pastiche on the hinu merchant's song from rimsky-korsakov's "sadko" isnt a too terribly difficult piece. it can be found on hamelin's kaleidoscope disk and is a great piece.

btw, stop making these "hardest pieces" threads!!! youre always gonna get teh same responses from the same posters.

[tompilk]

i may not be the best authority on this, but tehre are some pieces that arent insanely difficult. "in the hothouse" doesnt look or sound too difficult to me, and it also is a very beautiful piece. also, his pastiche on the hinu merchant's song from rimsky-korsakov's "sadko" isnt a too terribly difficult piece. it can be found on hamelin's kaleidoscope disk and is a great piece.

btw, stop making these "hardest pieces" threads!!! youre always gonna get teh same responses from the same posters.

yes, i just played a bit of in the hothouse, and I'm only grade 8 abrsm, slowly, and it only needs to be played slowly... lovely little piece.
Tom

[soliloquy]

Yeh.........  Sorabji....... he's kind of 20th century.


He did say hardest non-20th century piece.

[bflatminor24]

Yeh.........  Sorabji....... he's kind of 20th century.


He did say hardest non-20th century piece.

I know, I was asking you about Sorabji separate of the original topic. But you did forget the other Reger and Alkan, not that it really matters.

[soliloquy]

I know, I was asking you about Sorabji separate of the original topic. But you did forget the other Reger and Alkan, not that it really matters.

It's not so much that I forgot as much as:

A- I hate Reger and know next to none music of his

B- Le Preux is only 5:40, and nobody really takes the tempo marking seriously, and even if they did, the only exorbitantly difficult part would be the parallel octave passage.

[bflatminor24]

It's not so much that I forgot as much as:

A- I hate Reger and know next to none music of his

B- Le Preux is only 5:40, and nobody really takes the tempo marking seriously, and even if they did, the only exorbitantly difficult part would be the parallel octave passage.

Why do you hate Reger that much? Some of his stuff is very good and definitely worth a listen. His Bach variations are intense and really grab me.

As for Le Preux, don't you wish someone would record this piece correctly? And Nanasakov doesn't count, he used a machine (the cheater). I bet Hamelin could play it in 5:40 as marked. Man that would be f'n sick.

~Max~

[tompilk]

You said you hate reger, but how can you if you dont know any of him music?!?!?
Le Preux is slightly impossible all the way through... the only recording i have does it in 7:44... hehehe...
Tom

[jre58591]

You said you hate reger, but how can you if you dont know any of him music?!?!?
Le Preux is slightly impossible all the way through... the only recording i have does it in 7:44... hehehe...
Tom

well i seem to think of it a bit more highly. my recording is 5:44, which is pretty fast for this piece.

[tompilk]

well i seem to think of it a bit more highly. my recording is 5:44, which is pretty fast for this piece.

extremely fast! who is it?

[bflatminor24]

extremely fast! who is it?

Michael Nanasakov (aka Michael Nanasawa), who records a bunch of Alkan on a CD called Alkan in 1837. Too bad he uses a machine, hence the really mechanical sound. He can't actually play that music.

Too bad - we have yet to hear a 5:40 Le Preux played by human fingers. *Sigh*

~Max~

[jre58591]

haha you jsut beat me as i was typing it.

he also recorded alkan's reworked version of mozart's 20th piano concerto. i would kill to hear that under human fingers.

[tompilk]

Michael Nanasakov (aka Michael Nanasawa), who records a bunch of Alkan on a CD called Alkan in 1837. Too bad he uses a machine, hence the really mechanical sound. He can't actually play that music.

Too bad - we have yet to hear a 5:40 Le Preux played by human fingers. *Sigh*

~Max~

mines 5:59 in "in 1887"... are you sure it's 5:44?
Tom

[elias89]

How is the Brendel recording of Totentanz??

[donjuan]

How is the Brendel recording of Totentanz??

it's good.  He has the best glissandos of everyone I have heard.

[bflatminor24]

mines 5:59 in "in 1887"... are you sure it's 5:44?
Tom

It's 5:59 in 1887, but 5:44 in midi. The midi represents the actual tempo.


~ Max ~