Rachmaninoff Op. 23 No. 5 HELP!

[skorpius]

Hey Guys! I'm LITERALLY at the point that I'm going to kill myself! I have no idea what I'm doing wrong!!!!!!!  I learned the entire piece and am trying to speed up but for some reason that measure 17-22 section is screwing me up! My teacher has me playing octaves instead of single notes. All is fine but i ALWAYS mess up. Right now my speed is in the 80-84 range but when i get to 88 i can't keep it going and it's frustrating to keep using the metronome to gradually increase speed. GAH I have no idea what I have to do now.  It's those octaves thats causing the trouble I know it!

[takeo]

Hey!

   I'm also playing this, and I don't find these octaves so challenging. For me, it's more difficult the left hand jumps after the descending octaves.

  Maybe the problem is your fingering. What fingers do you use?

[makeanote]

Hi there Skorpius.

You'll need to make sure that your octaves are nice and clean and that you are relaxed playing them. Some exercises that can help include playing as octaves (in the rhythm of the octaves in the Prelude) C D E F E(hold crotchet) F G A B A(hold crotchet) etc.

This is the first YouTube I've ever prepared, but I thought it would be an easier way to quickly show you ways you can break this section down to help your practise be more productive.

Trust this helps.
Ian

[perfect_pitch]

Thats not bad... however the only problem with the video is that the octaves must be played Legato and you can't just use 1-5 for each of them... there was a topic about using the best fingering to play them legato for an exam...

The topic found here: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,34430.msg400002.html

[skorpius]

Hello Ian. Thank you, I've tried it but I can't say that it solved my problem. Right Now, My Finger Numbers are this for all the runs:

Measure 17 Run:

4555
3
1111

Measure 18:

5555
2
1111

Measure 19:

5555
3
1111

Measure 20:

5555
2
1111

Measure 21:

555
   3
   2
111

GAH i don't know what else to do :/ for some rason I can't get past 88 in tempo D:

[nanabush]

Ugh tell me about it!  I played this and the G# minor prelude (which is MUCH easier!) for a recital about a month ago.  This particular part I could get up to speed about 80% of the time without mistakes, but obviously I had to mess it up completely at the recital... While playing the middle part I decided to drop the inner note for the first of each set of four octaves, and just play them staccato (this was for when this part came up again at the end of the piece).

It's not the legato octaves that get me, it's that the first of each set has that damned middle note!  I have to slightly twist my hand to get from the chord before it (the G-Bb-Eb-G to Bb-Eb-G in the first case) and I always fumble up there.  Playing it all staccato solves the awkwardness, but my teacher would stop me every time I did that.

[perfect_pitch]

OK... Skorpius - are you playing this piece for an exam... are you being assessed on your performance??

If so - you need to sort out the finger for Bars 17 - 21, because you CAN NOT use 5 and 1 for every octave note because they are under slurs. You have to play them as smoothly as possible. If you don't, then you're just cheating. Check out this forum for help....

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,34430.msg399713.html#msg399713

[makeanote]

Hey there Skorpius,

If you are finding that your octaves aren't working beyond the tempo 88 (whether legato or otherwise), is it because of a physical problem involving your action (ie. are you becoming overly tense?). If this is so, you will really need to do some extra work to focus on octaves. I would suggest scales in octaves. Of particular importance for this piece (and this does tie in to what Perfect_Pitch addresses) are also chromatic scales focusing on 1-4 fingering for black notes and 1-5 fingering for white notes.

@Perfect_Pitch - you do bring up a good point regarding the legato line. The fingering I use (as pointed out in the other thread that you link to) uses 1-4 fingering to 1-5 (so I'm not using just straight 1-5 fingering as you might be otherwise indicating).

It would be understood as best practise, I believe, that an upward movement in octaves from a black key to a white key would utilise a 1-4 to 1-5 fingering. If I may quote you from the other thread...

##############################################
I'd personally use this instead...

5 4 5  4  5
3 1 1  1  3
1           1

##############################################

This fingering would undoubtedly result in a top line legato with a dragged thumb 'qausi-legato'. I doubt, however, that this combination of fingering, particularly the beginning 1-3-5 to 1-4 would stand up at tempo without becoming overly awkward. You are also performing a fairly unorthodox 1-5 (on black) to 1-4 (on white) ascending octave. The lower part of the line will always be compromised. It can't be argued that a phrase line is indicated on the score, and while it might be weak to argue that recordings of Rachmanninoff playing this prelude are non-legato, perhaps Rachmanninoff's intention in showing this marking was to contrast the military-like figure which descends just prior to the line that is causing so much interest

I am not arguing that it should be played staccato (and I trust my slower demonstration doesn't exhibit staccato playing), but I am also not advocating that the notes are meant to be smooth and unattached 'literally' - moreso that they indicate a melodic line.

Please take these observations in good faith and not as an attack on your previous posts. (And talking about octaves, all the very best with Petrushka!)

Ian

[skorpius]

Well Ian the thing is...I really think its a combination of stanima and finger numbers. I did what you showed me n the video, and I could play 16th notes better but still when I add the repeated notes, it all falls apart. I will try using the fingering to see if it helps although i would really like to know the fingering for the white notes to white notes runs because those are the hardest x.x

Thank you so much.

EDIT: Oh, and also I went to the piano world forums and they told me to play it relaxed. I did that and have now not been AS tense.

[skorpius]

Ian, if you can watch my video of my playing it.

[ramseytheii]

Thats not bad... however the only problem with the video is that the octaves must be played Legato and you can't just use 1-5 for each of them... there was a topic about using the best fingering to play them legato for an exam...

The topic found here: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,34430.msg400002.html

Octaves can never be literally legato - actually nothing on the piano can - because you cannot connect the thumb to anything physically.  In that sense it doesn't matter if you use a combination of 3-4-5 on the top notes. 

Many generations of piano students have killed themselves trying to play Busoni's arrangement of Bach's Prelude & Fugue in D major, BWV 532.  He marks for a fast octave-parallel D major scale a bizarre fingering for the top line, something like (starting on D) 5-4-3-4-5-3-4-5.  It is simply ridiculous to play octaves this way.

They should be played with the action of the whole arm, with generally the elbow controlling the movement between any two given octaves, and the weight transferred between them.

To demonstrate this, play an octave C, then going up, play an octave G.  Then, play just the pinky on C, and then the thumb on G.  Notice how the elbow has to make a slight clockwise motion in order to accomodate the shift.   To really demonstrate this to the extreme, try it with an octave C and an octave B (seventh higher).

In short octaves are played by small circular motions of the elbow, without the interference of fingers, and with a free upper-arm.  It can be occasionally useful to use 4 on black keys, or even 4 and 5 on black keys, but it is not essential to create a legato line.  In fact it is detrimental, because the octaves can't be played legato anyways, so we should give in to reality, and play all octaves purely with action of the arm, not involving fingering at all.

Look at the poco meno mosso section.  There are phrase marks over the right hand, but it is not possible to connect the notes.  You have to use pedal, and play them with arm action.  you would drive yourself crazy trying to play these like an organist, shifting fingers on every note in order to physically connect it with the next finger.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Hello Ian. Thank you, I've tried it but I can't say that it solved my problem. Right Now, My Finger Numbers are this for all the runs:

Measure 17 Run:

4555
3
1111

Measure 18:

5555
2
1111

Measure 19:

5555
3
1111

Measure 20:

5555
2
1111

Measure 21:

555
   3
   2
111

Looking at the passage closer I notice that not all the notes have an octave underneath them, in my edition.  Why is your teacher requiring you to play an octave on every note?

Rachmaninoff's idea in bars 18, 19 and 20 was clearly this: two physical thrusts in each scale, not four separate motions.  In this case I would use fingering, because they are not written as pure octave runs.  4-5 4-5 would work for all three of these passages.  That's clearly what he intended (a similar thing happens in etude op.39 no.4).

I advise you to drop the extra octaves, and use the physical gesture written already into the music.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

OK... Skorpius - are you playing this piece for an exam... are you being assessed on your performance??

If so - you need to sort out the finger for Bars 17 - 21, because you CAN NOT use 5 and 1 for every octave note because they are under slurs. You have to play them as smoothly as possible. If you don't, then you're just cheating.

I think that is really a mis-guided mindset.  What is cheating?  If Rachmaninoff writes a certain fingering, which is very hard for one person, but easy for another, and the first changes it, but still achieves the same effect, is he "cheating"?  If someone plays a scale in octaves legato, but using pedal, how is that cheating?  It's the sound that counts.

Anyways, it is not possible to play octaves legato no matter what fingering you use, unless your hand is so huge that you can play them like this: 1-3 2-4 3-5.  But nobody's is.  This fingering fetish for octaves misses the essential element in playing octaves, the action of the arm.

Walter Ramsey

[perfect_pitch]

I think that is really a mis-guided mindset.  What is cheating?  If Rachmaninoff writes a certain fingering, which is very hard for one person, but easy for another, and the first changes it, but still achieves the same effect, is he "cheating"?  If someone plays a scale in octaves legato, but using pedal, how is that cheating?  It's the sound that counts.

Generally for leisurely learning - that's okay, but in an exam situation - there is a clear difference between the sound of someone playing the notes as legato as they can, and the sound made when someone plays it using the pedal.

All I'm saying is that it is worth disciplining yourself into learning it correctly instead of taking little short-cuts. It isn't a mis-guided mindset if you're hoping to learn the great pieces of the pianistic repertoire and perform them publically, possibly for major recitals where you are being graded or assessed.

It's okay to change the fingering, however if it changes the sound then you're going against the composers wishes... and in an exam situation you have to do everything you can to remain accurate to the composers score. And yes... as you pointed out - no-one really has the span to do 1-3 on a Bb octave, because that's physically impossible (for most normal people, no offence to the freaks that CAN do it), but then you have to try and minimise the amount of changing to the articulation.

Putting down the pedal is NOT a good way to cover it - I discovered that through years of hard work having to correct my bad technique.

[ramseytheii]

Generally for leisurely learning - that's okay, but in an exam situation - there is a clear difference between the sound of someone playing the notes as legato as they can, and the sound made when someone plays it using the pedal.

All I'm saying is that it is worth disciplining yourself into learning it correctly instead of taking little short-cuts. It isn't a mis-guided mindset if you're hoping to learn the great pieces of the pianistic repertoire and perform them publically, possibly for major recitals where you are being graded or assessed.

It's okay to change the fingering, however if it changes the sound then you're going against the composers wishes... and in an exam situation you have to do everything you can to remain accurate to the composers score. And yes... as you pointed out - no-one really has the span to do 1-3 on a Bb octave, because that's physically impossible (for most normal people, no offence to the freaks that CAN do it), but then you have to try and minimise the amount of changing to the articulation.

Putting down the pedal is NOT a good way to cover it - I discovered that through years of hard work having to correct my bad technique.

There are innumerable octave passages marked legato, where it is impossible no matter what fingering you use to connect it.  That fact alone is enough to question, why bother?  If you have to play variation 6 of Brahms op.24 sempre legato, but can hardly connect any of the top line with consecutive fingers, why should you bother at all?

The poco meno mosso of the prelude in question is the same way.  It's not possible to play "literally" legato, and anyone would be a fool to try.

In a way that question is moot, because the thumb can't play legato with itself.  It is only natural to use pedal to make legato octaves, because otherwise it sounds terrible to have one line legato and the other line the thumb just plodding along.

Also, octaves are not a matter of finger technique.  They are a matter of arm technique.  It's a misapplication to say you need consecutive fingering to play legato octaves, because the problem of octaves, no matter what the articulation, does not lie in fingering.

As far as the quality of sound, I think you should be more specific.  How, specifically, does playing four octaves without consecutive fingering but connected with pedal, effect the sound?  Are you saying a pianist cannot hope to achieve that?  But if that's true, how can they hope to make a legato sound in the poco meno mosso?

Walter Ramsey

[perfect_pitch]

In a way that question is moot, because the thumb can't play legato with itself.  It is only natural to use pedal to make legato octaves, because otherwise it sounds terrible to have one line legato and the other line the thumb just plodding along.

Ok - granted that it is impossible to play all the passages completely legato, but you can at least try and join 2 of each together to make it smooth-ER. Pedal use blurs the sound and mixes the harmonies together... which isn't what Rachmaninoff wanted - or he would have put a pedal marking in there.