Tchaikovsky and Ravel

[redbaron]

I am curious. Does anyone know the extent of Tchaikovsky and Ravel's pianistic abilities? I'm only just becoming accquainted with Ravel and so my knowledge of him is fairly limited. I saw Gaspard de la Nuit perfromed at a recital a few months ago. I know that it's one of the most technically challenging pieces in the repertoire but was Ravel able to play it? Same goes for Tchaikovsky. Was he a virtuoso or merely competent. Was he actually able to play his concerti?

[weissenberg2]

I think Ravel recorded Gaspard de la Nuit. I don't know if Tchaikovsky was even a pianist.

[kay3087]

Tchaikovsky was a pianist and, from what literature I've read, could play his works. How well he could play them is unknown, but considering the very scare accounts of his playing, I would say he wasn't more than "competent", as far as a virtuoso. I think it is clear he wasn't a Rubenstein, or Richter.

Ravel recorded many of his works, I think. Gaspard de la Nuit included. He also had many students, including Vlado Perlemuter, and was popular within French virtuosi circles at the time.

[lontano]

I think Ravel recorded Gaspard de la Nuit. I don't know if Tchaikovsky was even a pianist.

Quotes from "A Ravel Reader" and other accounts I've read show that he did not record, on any player-piano (or acoustic method) very many works, and alleged recordings of him playing such items as Ondine and Scarbo are wrong, and possibly made by Casadesus or Vines. He apparently was able to record on the Aeolian Duo-Arts reproducing piano "Valse nobles" and all but the Toccata of "Le Tombeau de Couperin", with a likelihood of Vines or Casadeses interpreting the Toccata for the session. Not only was he not keen on practicing the piano, he was an absolute perfectionist and wouldn't likely record something he did not feel fully comfortable performing AND he was surrounded by better pianists, especially Ricardo Vines (who gave the premiers of works up through Gaspard), and the local Paris group of artists called the Apaches, who liked to wow each other with the modernism of the time in the 1920s. This link will (hopefully) provide a more accurate account than I'm remembering here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=lFtn3egpF8sC&pg=RA1-PA533&dq=Ravel%27s+piano+performance&ei=NfhoStznDaq6ywSo5ei8BA

Likewise, other historic accounts can be seen if you google "ravel's piano performance". Much of this is still in my head as I recently read a full biography written in 1940, 3 years after his death from brain damage.

Lontano

[lontano]

Tchaikovsky was a pianist and, from what literature I've read, could play his works. How well he could play them is unknown, but considering the very scare accounts of his playing, I would say he wasn't more than "competent", as far as a virtuoso. I think it is clear he wasn't a Rubenstein, or Richter.

Tchaikovsky was about as proficient as most graduates from the academie would be in order to begin a career as a composer. But no one was prepared for his 1st piano concerto, which was declared "unplayable!" by the person to whom he dedicated it to (or who commissioned it), much like a number of works over the years, including Barber's gloriously lush romantic Violin Concerto, which has a technically brilliant 3rd movement.

I believe that most of late 18th - early 20th century composers had some degree of skill, only a few greats (Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Alkan, Stravinsky, Busoni and several others) were truly considered virtuosos of the piano (or Paganini on violin). Mahler, for instance, made at least one piano roll, but it was a simple song. Other readers may have a broader opinion on this point (I didn't put a lot of thought into it   ).

Lontano

[mikey6]

From all accounts I've heard of Ravel's playing, it's not great.  Then again, composers playing their own works generally cause controversy - Ravel, Grieg, Rachmaninoff...
I'm learning the Tchaik concerto at the moment and it's horribly unpianistic which may or may not lead one to assume he was a good or bad pianist - I know a lot of people who find Chopin very unpianistic, yet Liszt whilst hard, always fits under the hand.

[lontano]

From all accounts I've heard of Ravel's playing, it's not great.  Then again, composers playing their own works generally cause controversy - Ravel, Grieg, Rachmaninoff...
I'm learning the Tchaik concerto at the moment and it's horribly unpianistic which may or may not lead one to assume he was a good or bad pianist - I know a lot of people who find Chopin very unpianistic, yet Liszt whilst hard, always fits under the hand.

I know Chopin can seem unpianistic at times, but his 3 sets of Etudes seem to me to be brilliant examples of how to overcome problems that any sort of writing for the piano a performer could expect to find (and that held true, for the most part, but was expanded by Liszt, Alkan, et at). I believe if you can perform all the Chopin Etudes you have a good chance of being equipped to perform most of what the next 60 years of piano composition await you (and a whole lot more!).

You mention Rachmaninoff in your short list of "controversy of composers performing their own works". Here I believe you are mistaken. Rachmaninoff was a giant, both in stature and in performing, and the digitally remastered recordings he made of ALL his own music as well as that of other composers, will testify that he was one of the greatest virtuosos of the early 20th century. His hands were huge and spanned "3 octaves" as my mom related her memories of seeing him perform.

As for Grieg, maybe not so brilliant a pianist. I've read that Grieg brought his orchestral w/piano score to Liszt for approval and Liszt sight-read it and emphatically approved it.

L.

[communist]

It seems Tchaikovsky's piano works are not very hard. His piano concerti are quite difficult. But his solo works are not that bad.

[kevinr]

I think Ravel was possibly potentially a great pianist but his heart wasn't really into performing.

I remember reading an account of his teacher at the Conservatoire berating him for being satisfied with mediocre standards when he could be "the best".

He would sometimes play his own Sonatine in public even towards the end of his creative life - but only the first two movements.

[lontano]

I think Ravel was possibly potentially a great pianist but his heart wasn't really into performing.

I remember reading an account of his teacher at the Conservatoire berating him for being satisfied with mediocre standards when he could be "the best".

He would sometimes play his own Sonatine in public even towards the end of his creative life - but only the first two movements.

True, and of the valid list of player-piano recordings he made, it was just the first 2 movements of the Sonatine he recorded. Since I'm no longer proficient at performing, and maybe never was, I would have guessed that the 3rd movement would not be much harder than the 1st, but I'm probably wrong.

L.

[mikey6]

You mention Rachmaninoff in your short list of "controversy of composers performing their own works". Here I believe you are mistaken. Rachmaninoff was a giant, both in stature and in performing, and the digitally remastered recordings he made of ALL his own music as well as that of other composers, will testify that he was one of the greatest virtuosos of the early 20th century. His hands were huge and spanned "3 octaves" as my mom related her memories of seeing him perform.

Yes, I realise and recognise his stature as an amazing pianist.  All I said was his playing of his own works has caused some debate. However, I do think that they are required listening when tackling anything he wrote.

[fast_forward]

I think I remember reading that Ravel could play, but not really great. The G major concerto he had originally planned to write so that he could perform it. His friends quickly dissuaded him from that idea...