Elliott Carter

[weissenberg2]

Elliott Carter is a composer I am interested in since everyone seems to love him. What is everyone's opinions on him and favorite pieces by him.?

[mikey6]

you misspelt his name - It's Elliot according to the general population. 

[pies]

a

[retrouvailles]

I like his piano sonata.  The rest is overrated.

How is the rest overrated? Most of it is barely rated at all, given that a lot people who know of him haven't gotten past the piano sonata, which is really his juvenalia. Heck, my radio station won't play anything except that, his Symphony No. 1, and his Holiday Overture. Anyways, I obviously like the piano sonata, but other pieces here and there from his mature idiom. It is rather hard to grasp sometimes, and I am therefore still evaluating a lot of it. I really like the piano works, like Night Fantasies and the Two Thoughts about the Piano. I also like his Three Occasions, Piano Concerto, and Triple Duo, among others. I can't explain why I like a lot of it, but I just do.

[pies]

a

[indutrial]

Elyote Cahrtyr is OK.  I like his piano sonata.  The rest is overrated.

Submitting crappy posts is also overrated.

In my opinion, Carter's finest works are his chamber pieces (esp. the string quartets, the piano quintet, the oboe quartet, Enchanted Preludes, the duo for violin and piano, and the recent clarinet quintet), his concertos (especially those for clarinet and oboe), and Night Fantasies for piano. It's funny hearing his sonata referred to as juvenalia. He finished it when he was 38 years old. I suppose an appraisal of Carter's unusually lengthy career warrants such an assessment. One should simply start at the beginning with his work (by which I mean the first works that broke him away from the Copland-ish sound), with the piano sonata, the woodwind quintet, the first string quartet, and the cello sonata. One should take their time with denser works like the piano concerto, the double concerto for harpsichord/piano, and the Triple Duo, as they are a touch more difficult to latch onto at first.

[indutrial]

Well Carter seems to be treated as the greatest composer of his generation.  I think his later works are boring.

My guess is that most mature listeners who like music like Carter's don't really sit around ranking one composer against another. With the amount of creative freedom pervading the musical climate of the twentieth century, I would say that it's nearly impossible to gauge anybody as being 'great' or 'small' in terms of representing the art form. Even composers of wide influence like Cage seem to have just as many detractors. To me, Carter's music succeeds massively in terms of representing the spirit of individuality and creative power that musicians had been pushing towards for centuries. Simultaneously, his work pays strong homage to musical traditions and, in many occurrences, provides a fitting musical analogue to the literature/mood of the age in which he lived (and continues to live). In a more down-to-earth sense, his music is endlessly exciting and rich, study of his scores is intensely rewarding and challenging, and performance of his pieces demands that the musicians reach higher plateaus of virtuosic excellence.

Skewering such a large body of work with a terse description like 'boring' hardly convinces me that you've really given it a proper appraisal.

For me, listening to Carter (like Wuorinen, Babbitt, and Sessions) requires me to take a walk to the park with my headphones, if only to remove all distractions and extraneous household sounds. I can't enjoy his music much at work or while I'm bullsh*tting on the internet. Where I've enjoyed it the most is at recitals with musicians who really enjoy the works. I've only seen a handful of Carter works performed live (best was the aforementioned clarinet quintet), but it certainly adds a strong dimension to the music.

[pies]

a

[ahinton]

I should have specified that I was talking about the piano works since that's all I'm familiar with.  I tried to attentively listen to the Oppens disc that came out recently but I eventually started skipping straight to the sonata.  That's the best way I can put it.  The same is true for me when it comes to Sessions (piano works).  The first sonata is a joy to listen to; I skip the rest.  Perhaps I'm reverting to a tonal-only mindset.  

There is only one piano sonata by Carter (sadly!) and it is indeed a joy to listen to provided that it gets the kind of performance that it deserves (which is by no means always the case); although Carter is not much of a pianist by all accounts, his understanding of what works well on the instrument seems to me to be streets ahead of those other mid-(ish)-20th century American piano sonatas, the three nevertheless interesting ones by Sessions and the dry-as-dust one by Copland - it strikes me as being in every sense at least the equal of the Barber, though very different from it, of course - and it demands considerable virtuosity from the player. If you can't get on with Carter's other piano music, then so be it, I guess; there's only just above enough of it to fill a CD and, even nowadays with all his more recent pithy miniatures, the bulk of it remains the sonata and Night Fantasies.

[gep]

While I am probably (well, not even that!) nowhere near enough well versed in the music of Carter to give a proper remark, I'd guess that the Violin Concerto and Symphonia are the works I like best. Do not ask me why I like this (or indeed any music), I just do...

gep

[ahinton]

While I am probably (well, not even that!) nowhere near enough well versed in the music of Carter to give a proper remark, I'd guess that the Violin Concerto and Symphonia are the works I like best. Do not ask me why I like this (or indeed any music), I just do...

gep

The violin concerto, despite its two-layered middle movement, is probably one of the composer's more approachable orchestral works for quite some time; the Symphonia is, quite simply, one of the masterpieces of late 20th century orchestral literature.

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

If you can't get on with Carter's other piano music, then so be it, I guess; there's only just above enough of it to fill a CD and, even nowadays with all his more recent pithy miniatures, the bulk of it remains the sonata and Night Fantasies.

I like 90+, which is too long to be a miniature and too short to be considered a major performance piece like Night Fantasies. The more I've listened to his work, the more I've come to realize that a lot of his best piano writing is to be found in the aforementioned chamber works. Check out the Duo for violin and piano from 1973. This work is clearly meant to be distinguished from your typical violin sonata. Even the earlier Cello Sonata (1948) makes some unusually heavy demands on the accompanist, especially in regard to timing. There's also some fantastic piano writing in later works like the Triple Duo and the quintets (one for winds/piano, one for strings/piano).

[retrouvailles]

I, for some reason, have never found the piano writing in a lot of Carter's latest chamber works that I've heard (piano quintets and Triple Duo) to be that interesting without the rest of the ensemble. It seems to be more of a "collaborative effort" in these pieces that makes them interesting. However, I found the writing in his piano concerto and double concerto to be more interesting. I even thought that the piano writing in Dialogues and Soundings was a bit too fragmentary to be interesting on its own. Perhaps there was more of a romantic mentality in his earlier works, where the piano was clearly dominant?

[weissenberg2]

I have listened to some of his pieces. I like what I have heard especially the cello sonata. I am having some trouble understanding some of it though 

[indutrial]

I have listened to some of his pieces. I like what I have heard especially the cello sonata. I am having some trouble understanding some of it though 

With Carter's music, I'm not quite as concerned with achieving understanding as much as I simply enjoy the music's liveliness. You must remember that, even with an early work such as the cello sonata, you are hearing the creative result of over 30 years of musical influence and an exploration of numerous new ideas with regard to rhythm, etc.... If I said that I had any level of true understanding about any of his works, including the cello sonata, I'd be full of s**t. I've read a few articles about specific works of his, but until I sit down and pore over the score enough to get whatever I can get from the work, I won't claim to really know much of anything about it (besides the superficial things that one could find in wikipedia, etc..). The way his compositions sound definitely make me want to understand more about his creative process, and I have more than a few of his scores filed away for future study, but as for understanding him, I wouldn't say I've even come close. 

[weissenberg2]

With Carter's music, I'm not quite as concerned with achieving understanding as much as I simply enjoy the music's liveliness. You must remember that, even with an early work such as the cello sonata, you are hearing the creative result of over 30 years of musical influence and an exploration of numerous new ideas with regard to rhythm, etc.... If I said that I had any level of true understanding about any of his works, including the cello sonata, I'd be full of s**t. I've read a few articles about specific works of his, but until I sit down and pore over the score enough to get whatever I can get from the work, I won't claim to really know much of anything about it (besides the superficial things that one could find in wikipedia, etc..). The way his compositions sound definitely make me want to understand more about his creative process, and I have more than a few of his scores filed away for future study, but as for understanding him, I wouldn't say I've even come close. 

That makes me feel better 

[lontano]

Elliott Carter is a composer I am interested in since everyone seems to love him. What is everyone's opinions on him and favorite pieces by him.?

Not only is he over 100 years old and still composing, but he's lived in Greenwich Village (NYC) since 1945! Who else can make that claim??
One way to better know a composer anything like Carter is to read about him in a scholarly text and try to follow his compositional path. After the break out days of his youth when he wrote these influential works:
# Piano Sonata (1945-46)
# Cello Sonata (1948)
# Woodwind Quintet (1948)
# Eight Etudes and a Fantasy for Wind Quartet (1949)
# String Quartet No.1 (1951)
# Sonata for Flute, Oboe, Cello and Harpsichord (1952)
his style continued to grow more personal and developed into a 12-tone system pretty intimately his own.

I believe Charles Rosen has written extensively regarding Carter (and recorded all his piano works). My 2 cents.

Lontano

[argerichfan]

I believe Charles Rosen has written extensively regarding Carter (and recorded all his piano works). My 2 cents.

Yes he did, and of course he has recorded a CD of Carter.  I confess to being rather fond of Night Fantasies myself, and Rosen wrote glowingly about it.  He praised Carter's writing for piano, and I believe he said something along the lines of 'there is always a finger available [to play Carter's works]', just meaning that it is very pianistic music.  (Could have this wrong, haven't read it in a while.)

I do love the piano sonata very much, and several years ago I heard an outstanding performance of the cello sonata, a very special work.  (Writing for the cello certainly brings out the best in many composers- think Beethoven, Brahms, Reger, Dvorak, Elgar.)  Highly recommended!  That said, I do have a score to the piano concerto -and have heard a recording, Jacob Lateiner I believe?- but I've never been able to connect with it. 

[ahinton]

Yes he did, and of course he has recorded a CD of Carter.  I confess to being rather fond of Night Fantasies myself, and Rosen wrote glowingly about it.  He praised Carter's writing for piano, and I believe he said something along the lines of 'there is always a finger available [to play Carter's works]', just meaning that it is very pianistic music.  (Could have this wrong, haven't read it in a while.)

I do love the piano sonata very much, and several years ago I heard an outstanding performance of the cello sonata, a very special work.  (Writing for the cello certainly brings out the best in many composers- think Beethoven, Brahms, Reger, Dvorak, Elgar.)  Highly recommended!  That said, I do have a score to the piano concerto -and have heard a recording, Jacob Lateiner I believe?- but I've never been able to connect with it.  

I couldn't connect" with that concerto for years. When I heard it played by Nicolas Hodges at the "Get Carter!" Festival in London a few years ago, I really wondered why - a fantastic performance from him and all concerned. Sadly, I don't think he's recorded the piece.

Best,

Alistair

[mikey6]

- a fantastic performance form him and all concerned.

Spell check please!

[ahinton]

Spell check please!

Spellcheckers do not alert users to words that are genuine words even when they're the wrong ones as in the case of the typo here; point taken and corrected, however - and, by the way, you missed another typo in the same post which I've now also corrected!

Best,

Alistair

[mikey6]

Spellcheckers do not alert users to words that are genuine words even when they're the wrong ones as in the case of the typo here; point taken and corrected, however - and, by the way, you missed another typo in the same post which I've now also corrected!

Best,

Alistair

I wasn't referring to a spellcheck program, more pointing out an error which required it's spelling to be checked.
Out of curiosity, why have I found 3 different spellings of spell check - spell check, spellcheck and spell-check?

[gep]

Out of curiosity, why have I found 3 different spellings of spell check - spell check, spellcheck and spell-check?

Because nobody has yet done a spell check on spellcheck?

[ahinton]

One could argue that this has gone well off-topic, but given the number of instances where people spell Mr Carter's first name incorrectly, perhaps it has some relevance after all...

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

Vaughan Williams and Juilliard are often misspelled...

[ahinton]

Vaughan Williams and Juilliard are often misspelled...

True, but neither of them is the thread topic here!

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

True, but neither of them is the thread topic here!

Right-O, just referencing the slightly 'off topic' misspelling of Carter's first name.   But I've seen Vaughan Williams and Juilliard misspelled quite frequently, often by people who should know better! 

[weissenberg2]

I love his oboe concerto and his cello sonata. I felt his Night Fantasies were interesting but slightly unattractive, same with his Symphony of Three Orchestras. I enjoyed the Three Occasions for orchestra especially the 2nd movement.

So far I have been liking him.

Retrouvaillies, is your username is reference to the Carter piece?

[retrouvailles]

Retrouvaillies, is your username is reference to the Carter piece?

Yes, it is. I have mentioned that a few times.

[ahinton]

Retrouvaillies, is your username is reference to the Carter piece?

This Cartesian mis-spelling is getting contagious!...

Best,

Alistair