My goal

[borealis]

Okay, I'm looking for some serious advice on how to reach my goal.  By next September, I want to play Chopin's Ballade in G minor.  I currently have my grade 9 RCM piano certificate, and I'm working on my Grade 10.  But the Ballade is a piece I absolutely have to play, and I want it by September, 2010.

My repertoire is not extensive, nor is it advanced.  My most advanced piece that I can play consistently is Haberbier's Serenade, Op. 53, No. 5.  I know and have memorized Liebestraum, the Military Polonaise, and Clair de Lune, but both of them are not where I want them to be.  Other pieces I know include Chopin's Waltz in F minor Op. 70 No.2, Mozart's Fantasia in D minor, and Beethoven's Sonata in G Op. 49, No. 2.

I've got the time to practice, I've got a goal; I don't have a teacher as of yet.  I just need some help with direction.  What are some good preparatory pieces?  Technical difficulties to work on?

One thing I don't need: explanations why I can't do it by next year.  I can, and I will.  This is my goal, my musical focus, and my vision.  I just need some help getting there.

[thalbergmad]

I can, and I will. 

Well done old boy, that is half the battle already won.

The sooner you find a good teacher the better though.

Thal

[learner of liszt]

I'm with Thal on this one. A teacher is the beneficial thing for you right now. I suggest taking a bit of time learning some less technically advanced pieces, work on your technique, and then, perhaps, start the Ballade. I admire your courage, that is one tricky piece!

[borealis]

I've found a teacher nearby, but I won't be able to start with him right away until I get some more cashflow coming in.  In the meantime, I want to get going on this piece.  My deadline is early September, 2010.  I'll have a chance to play for a significantly large crowd at that time, and I'm going to take that chance and run with it.

I'd be happy to start with some lesser pieces, if someone could give me some suggestions as to what pieces are appropriate (and related to the Ballade).  Some Heller etudes, perhaps?

[nanabush]

It can be done... I was in your position a few years ago.  The year I completed my Grade 10, I also finished the Ballade (it wasn't up to perfection, but pretty damn good considering it was still quite a bit beyond me).

Look at some Grade 10 Repertoire - picking up the Royal Conservatory Repertoire/Studies from Grade 10 would definitely help; they cover quite a bit of stuff that comes up in the Ballade.

I found the toughest in the Ballade was the finger work for the right hand in some sections (arpeggios with double notes, intense scale passages, etc).

The Rachmaninoff Etude in G minor Op 33 is in the Grade 10 Studies book, and has a VERY similar ending to the Ballade.  It also has a very nice cadenza, and quite a bit of technical work.  It's definitely worth looking at (it's also free online, if you don't wanna get the book, at IMSLP.org)

I like the etudes in the RCM books because they are short.  Some Chopin Etudes would benefit, but they can be quite long, and take a huge amount of time learning just one.  The etudes in Grd 9/10 are usually 2-4 pages, and cover a wide amount of techniques. 

Also look through some Chopin Preludes:  I'd suggest the C+, G+, B+, Db+.  I find the minor ones are either grd 6-7 level, or have tougher material than the Ballade.

Start looking through the ballade soon, pick out the easy/harder parts for you.  Find what you have trouble with, post up, and get the easier bits under your hands.  It's a lot more motivating knowing you're slowly chipping chunks away at the piece, and getting closer to finishing it.

[quantum]

Just start learning it!  You've got the motivation already, so go do it.

It is a tricky piece, but learning it will also bring your technique to a new level.  Once you have started you will have a basis to ask more detail questions here.  You don't have to learn in order from beginning to end.  I'd suggest tackling the more technical parts first.  Practice these parts slowly while you learn the rest of the piece.

[borealis]

Well, looking around the forum and getting people's opinion on the Ballade, I'm realizing that one of the most challenging parts would be the Coda.  So naturally I'm going to start at the end and work my way back through the piece.

Okay, so here's my goal: By September 10, 2010, I will be able to play this piece.  So I sat down with the score and numbered every single measure.  There are 264 of them.  Two hundred and sixty-four.  So I'm going to give myself a target of one measure a day.  Just one measly six-bar measure every single day.  Even taking into account vacations and business trips, that will leave me roughly two to three months of time to polish the piece after learning it all.  And not all measures are created equal; some of them are easy.  In fact, I've got the last five done already today.  So some days I'll be able to get ahead of the goal of one per day.  Other measures will be nightmarish and horrifying, giving me cold sweats and waking me up screaming at three in the morning.  Those ones will probably balance it out a bit, taking an extra day or two to work out.

So there we have it: a measurable, achievable goal in writing.  Now to make this vision a reality.  As long as I stick to it, I know I can learn this piece to meet my deadline.

Incidentally, my score is an older Schirmer printing, copyright 1943.  Used book stores rule, don't they?  Anyway, at the end of the score is a little note about how Tausig played the final ascending G minor scale in thirds (both hands).  Has anyone tried to do this, and how much medication did you require afterwards?  I really need to practice scales more.

[quantum]

Best thing you could do now is get yourself a good edition.  I recommend Paderewski or Ekier.  If on a budget, old Dovers were copies of the Paderewski.  

If you want to spread out the work, I would not recommend literally one measure a day.  I would work by phrase.  There are lots of patterns and repetitions - by learning one repeated pattern you could learn a phrase consisting of such patterns, by learning a phrase you could learn all the other instances the phrase is repeated.  It would be much more efficient than spending 8 days learning 8 measures, when you could have it done in one day because it is just the same pattern over and over.

[borealis]

What's wrong with the Schirmer?  I've got that as well as a copy downloaded from IMSLP.  Besides, what difference is there between these editions?  Aren't the notes consistent?  It's a pretty well-known piece, after all.

As for the one measure a day, I agree that learning repeated patterns all at once is a good plan.  On the other hand, I'm confident that I'll recognize these repeating patterns as they occur, and I'll be able to incorporate them quickly.  If there is an eight-measure repeating pattern, it won't take me eight days to learn it, believe me.  Two days at the most, depending on the difficultly of the section.

[quantum]

There have been many discussions on this forum about Schirmer, just do a search.  Under most cases and most composers I would say avoid Schirmer.  In fact if you were my student I'd send you right back to the store to exchange the Schirmer for something else.  

Sometimes it is more that just the notes.  Schirmer has a reputation for making questionable editorial decisions, worst of all not differentiating them between which marks belong to the editor and which belong to the composer.  It can give a false sense that some editorial marks were instructions coming from the composer rather than opinions of the editor.

I believe the Schirmer is freely available on IMSLP, so if you really want to see it just download for free.  

You should be aware that some competitions or exams state in their syllabus: any standard edition except Schirmer.  

[nanabush]

I found the toughest part in the piece (other than the coda), to be the 'piu animato' section right after the chord/octave climax in the middle.  All the way until the 'leggiero' and right until it calms down with some slower chords in the right hand, that part was complete hell for me.  The left hand jumps enough that you have to have some focus on it, and the right hand is playing some very complex fast passages.   Even when I was able to play through the piece, I was still working at bringing that part up to speed.

You will probably end up having sub-projects within the piece; this part will probably be one of them  .  If you were to extract that section (which lasts about 2 pages, or about 45 seconds), it would make for a really nasty study beyond the grade 10 level.  All I can say is practice all of your scales, chromatics, starting on any note, and the finger work won't be as bad.  There are some good grade 9 studies for stuff like that.

You can probably find entire threads just dedicated to the coda; I can say there isn't a lack of information on this forum for the Ballade lol,

[quantum]

I found the toughest part in the piece (other than the coda), to be the 'piu animato' section right after the chord/octave climax in the middle.  All the way until the 'leggiero' and right until it calms down with some slower chords in the right hand, that part was complete hell for me.  The left hand jumps enough that you have to have some focus on it, and the right hand is playing some very complex fast passages.   Even when I was able to play through the piece, I was still working at bringing that part up to speed.

You will probably end up having sub-projects within the piece; this part will probably be one of them  .  If you were to extract that section (which lasts about 2 pages, or about 45 seconds), it would make for a really nasty study beyond the grade 10 level.  All I can say is practice all of your scales, chromatics, starting on any note, and the finger work won't be as bad.  There are some good grade 9 studies for stuff like that.

I can relate, actually I spent more time working that section than the coda.

[borealis]

I'm going to post updates on my progress here, and eventually I might even be able to get a recording of it online.  We'll see how things go, but I'm going to get this done.  It's the hardest thing I've ever tried to do, but I'm going to do it.

[borealis]

I've got a teacher; I start with him September 14th.  I'm going to continue my one measure a day plan for now, and assuming all goes well, I'll be about a third of the way through the coda (working from the end) before the long runs/scales section.  Measure 225, to be exact.  Right now I'm on measure 252, just before the ascending Gm melodic scale.  I'm patiently working through the Gm melodic in 10ths; I've never done that scale before.  I figured out that my hands do the jumps at the same time, which is making it easier.

Over the phone he already suggested I back up to either the second or third ballade, but I'm going to stick with my plan on this piece.  Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are busy doing it.  And I'm busy.

I'm watching a different Youtube performance of this piece every day to keep myself in the proper frame of mind.  My wife is encouraging me, although I know she'll be getting sick of hearing this piece over the next year.

For the anti-Schirmer people, the editor of the score I have is Rafael Joseffy.  I can also get a copy edited by Klindworth (Bote & Bock, publishers).  Is that an improvement, or is Joseffy sufficiently respected for me to continue with my current score?

I know this goal seems crazy to some people, but I know it can be done.  If a blind twenty-year old can win the Van Cliburn competition playing HR2, I can learn this Ballade in a year.  Encouragement is appreciated, constricutive criticism (other than, you can't do this) will be carefully considered.

[tds]

Well done old boy, that is half the battle already won.

The sooner you find a good teacher the better though.

Thal

dr thal always knows

[borealis]

Okay, things are moving along nicely so far.  I'm now at the beginning of the long chromatic run at the end of the piece, measure 242.  Chromatic scales aren't my strongest suit, and it's something I have to work on a lot right now, but at least I've got time to do so.  At the top of the scale, into the long descending cadenza, I've got a comfortable rhythm and my fingers are flying.

Now it's into the presto con fuoco, which should be fun.  Given its difficulty, I'm glad I'm tackling this part this soon.

[nitrocan]

Are you serious? You'll so easily get it by next year. You can even go for all the Ballades

I finished the 4th Ballade in 2 months. The best way to learn Chopin, especially his ballades, is working more on the music rather than the technique. When you learn the functions firmly, the rest is just finger work.

[borealis]

Are you serious? You'll so easily get it by next year. You can even go for all the Ballades

One at a time is fine for me.  I'm also going to be working on preparing my Grade 10 piano exam this year, including at least one Chopin piece (an un-opused Etude).  That, plus all the technique (by far my weakest point), will keep me occupied enough that one Ballade is enough.

I finished the 4th Ballade in 2 months. The best way to learn Chopin, especially his ballades, is working more on the music rather than the technique. When you learn the functions firmly, the rest is just finger work.

Yeah, I know.  But I don't have the educational background that most people here have.  I didn't take my first piano exam until I was 27, and I didn't even have a teacher until I was ready for my Grade 4.  So I've got some catching up to do in some spots.

[jgallag]

For the anti-Schirmer people, the editor of the score I have is Rafael Joseffy.  I can also get a copy edited by Klindworth (Bote & Bock, publishers).  Is that an improvement, or is Joseffy sufficiently respected for me to continue with my current score?

No, get Paderewski. I believe you can find his editions published by Dover, but I have his edition of the Preludes published by Instytut Fryderyka Chopina Polskie Wydawnictwo Muzyczne. It's a mouthful. Anyways, it should be reasonably priced, considering it contains all four Ballades. You can order it off the internet.

[quantum]

No, get Paderewski. I believe you can find his editions published by Dover, but I have his edition of the Preludes published by Instytut Fryderyka Chopina Polskie Wydawnictwo Muzyczne. It's a mouthful. Anyways, it should be reasonably priced, considering it contains all four Ballades. You can order it off the internet.

I concur, it is not that expensive.  Somewhere around $14 CAN.   See if you can find an Ekier to reference too (maybe your local university library would have it). 

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm going to continue my one measure a day plan for now, and assuming all goes well, I'll be about a third of the way through the coda (working from the end) before the long runs/scales section.  

Working with a bar per day method can present a lot of imbalance to your progress. First of all it requires a lot more dedication to work on a bar per day effort, you cannot afford to miss one day or you will get behind very fast. Secondly, some bars are extremely easy, others take a little practice, others will stump you. It is very constructive to take note of which bars are easy, medium and hard for you. (Highlighting with color is a good idea). Some days you can get through more than 1 bar and you should, others days you will not learn any new bars but solidify what you have learned before.

Always try to play through the piece from start to finish every day (even if you can't do everything right). This forces you to get the entire work done, not give yourself excuses to work on a section only when you are ready. You may also find that easy section and medium difficulty sections which you would give full attention to (if working on bar per day) are rather automatically learned by repeating your way through the entire piece.

[borealis]

Another week gone by, and progress is happening.   I've almost got the second page done (from the end, naturally), and I'm starting to hear the Ballade under my fingers.  That presto con fuoco is a truly nasty thing, isn't it?  But it's coming, and every day I get a bit faster on earlier measures.

I'm still using the Schirmer, simply because I don't have access to any other score except on IMSLP.  I know people are saying get the Paderewski, but I can't get it just yet.  The Schirmer hasn't given me any problems so far.

I start with my teacher on the 14th, and I'll have the last two pages playable (if not up to speed in some parts).  I'm also going to work on my Grade 10 RCM exam with him.  That plus the Ballade should definitely keep me busy for the next year.

[borealis]

I'm at a business convention this weekend, leaving me with no time to practice.  However, I certainly got motivation to help me: the company owner's son is 14, and he gave a performance of Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue in front of about a thousand people.  I intend to do the same thing next year.  He had two teachers turn him down because RinB was too advanced for a young teen (he started a year and a half ago).  The third teacher was there last night to receive kudos from everyone for their achievement.

This dream will be a reality.  I feel even better about this than I did before.

[stringoverstrung]

and how did your first lesson go by?

[borealis]

and how did your first lesson go by?

It would have gone better if our van hadn't broken down.  The teacher couldn't fit me in this week as a makeup, so I'll have to go next week instead.