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Topic: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2  (Read 4805 times)

Offline rachfan

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G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2
on: August 14, 2009, 09:22:19 PM
Georgy Catoire composed his Chants du Crepuscule (Songs of Twilight), Op. 24 in 1914.  These pieces are translucent and a bit impressionistic, but with a lush late romantic tinge.  The “Chant No. 2” in F minor, a difficult piece, reveals a somewhat capricious nature, yet is sometimes melancholy, restless, and ruminating, but ends in a bright F major picardie third.  

In the liner notes of Avie CD, AV2143, entitled “Catoire, Complete Works for Violin and Piano” with Herwig Zack, violin and Bernd Zack, piano, Herwig Zack wrote:

“… Catoire’s compositions are very hard to play and of formidable virtuoso demand, interspersed with technical and rhythmic difficulties.  … Among the characteristics of his style are a distinctive chromaticism, subtly flowing modulations into distant keys, a preference for altered chords and the use of augmented triads in his later compositions upon occasion without resolution, complex rhythmic structures, for instance 3 against 5, 4 against 7, hemiolas, sophisticated polyphonic work and romantic vocal texture.”  

Similarly in his liner notes for his Hyperion CD, A67090, Catoire Piano Music, Marc-Andre Hamelin wrote:  

“… Catoire’s piano music is technically demanding, and can only be properly revealed when played by a musician possessing a transcendental technique. ….”

To me, reading those descriptions is daunting, but I persevere in this repertoire.

Comments welcome.

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Offline furtwaengler

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #1 on: August 14, 2009, 09:42:34 PM
Well, sir...I do like it when you present the great music of Catoire to us. I wonder if those daunting descriptions (or at least Hamelin's) were not meant for pianists, but the general listening public? He would still be correct, there seems much more complexity then what is heard on the surface.

This piece here, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2. Does it remind you a bit of Scriabin? As if a fragment of his romantic 1st Sonata (hey, in Fm) were transplanted into his late style?

Your good performance could be opened up a bit...more free, more improvisational, a more flexible pulse, more swelling rubato to the peaks of the phrases...and I'd wonder what a slightly quicker pace would do for that?

But you've more intimate knowledge Catoire and this piece. I'll just sit back and listen again! :)

Nice work!
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Offline rachfan

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #2 on: August 14, 2009, 10:46:26 PM
Hi furtwaengler,

Thanks for listening to this Catoire piece!  Yes, I do sense some Scriabin influence in this music.  In the Chant No. 3, I think there was more influence from Faure and Debussy.  This eclectic qualilty fused with Catoire's own originality is what makes his music so stunning in my opinion.  

I believe that Hamelin was referring to the pianist first in regards to the transcendental technique; in the absence of that, his concern is that the music will not be properly revealed to the listener during performance.

You know, I was worried that I was taking too many liberties with the pulse, so felt the need to keep the playing reasonably tight without it being metronomic, of course.  The voice texture in this piece is quite prominent, so I did want to bring out that cantilena element.  Had I loosened it even more, yes, the peaks of the phrases could have been treated more leisurely and dramatically.  Then again, this is a caprice, so that alone imposes limits on tempo.  As far as a faster tempo, I'm not confident, frankly, that I could execute it without missing notes along the way, as the polyphony is very complex and challenging in this piece, plus it seems that every other note is an accidental, so the piece is harder to ingrain in the brain (which at my age is difficult in any case  ;D).  I do believe that the tempo I selected works well in conveying the sense of the nervous restlessness and agitation of the music.  

On another website, someone observed that I play the piece more in the late romantic mode, whereas Hamelin plays it with more "restraint".  Differing perspectives for sure!

I appreciate your compliment on my playing, and I'm glad you liked this piece.  (Then again, what's there not to like with Catoire?!)  :)

 
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline goldentone

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #3 on: August 15, 2009, 06:33:04 AM
Hi Rachfan,

An agitated effusion, this Chants du Crepescule No. 2.  And for all the agitation, I think there is great beauty born.  Already this is a favorite of the Catoires you have recorded.  Furtwaengler mentioned Scriabin, and he came to mind while I listened.  The storm finally subsides into a tranquil repose, and I think that serves as a satisfying counterbalance aesthetically, and for the absorption of the listener. This is highly dense music.  In not much more than a minute and a half, Catoire has compressed a lot. The chromaticism, the complex rhythms, and the surges of romanticism are all a delight to take in.  

You've done a fantastic job with this, Rachfan.  I know you've sometimes lamented the difficulty of Catoire's music, but keep on, for you only continue to improve as a pianist.

        
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Offline rachfan

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #4 on: August 15, 2009, 01:35:57 PM
Hi goldentone,

Thanks for your very kind words.  Yes, a variety of moods enter this piece all once, and the moments of agitation add much to the piece.  The polyphony in this piece with all it voice leading, exchanges between the hands and with all the rhythmic intricacies along with it make this piece a real challenge to play well. 

Yes, I love the lush and peaceful ending too.  True to form, Catoire knows how to best bring a piece to a close.

Your point about sticking with this repertoire and improving as a pianist is right on.  Every time I pick up one of his scores, it always looks deceptively easy--until I become swamped in all its complexities.  Luckily, Catoire is always there to help me through it all, if I ask him politely. ;D
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline ted

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #5 on: August 16, 2009, 02:22:04 AM
Your playing continues to develop interesting sublety. I like the fact that you stick to your own conception, which is quite different from Hamelin's, at least going by the sample on the Hyperion website. To my mind yours is the more expressive but it boils down to personal taste I suppose.

I listened to it a few more times while viewing the score on IMSLP and was struck by his writing it in a polyphonic 3/4. What I had registered mentally was a sort of undulating perpetual motion in 6/8 - a continuous, more or less regular stream of notes. Looking at the score, I see the procession of notes is split into various voices. This reinforces my conjecture that it was, to some extent, written out improvisation with the counterpoint being the by-product of a natural improvisational flow via the fingers. It could be the other way around, of course, thought out counterpoint with a deliberate improvisational effect. Being an improviser, I like to amuse myself with these ponderings; they are not essential to enjoying the music. I also wonder why he bothered with key signatures at all, as about the same number of accidentals would probably occur whatever the key, so it might as well be in C with everything accidental.

Well done again anyway, you have a natural affinity for this music.
"Mistakes are the portals of discovery." - James Joyce

Offline rachfan

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 04:42:53 AM
Hi Ted,

Nice to hear from you!  And thanks for listening and your very kind words too.

Yes, I think that my rendition is a bit more effusive in the late romantic spirit, whereas Hamelin's take is a little more conservative.  I just can't resist the big surges!  The polyphony in this piece is complex and a real challenge as you've surmised.  There is a great deal of voice leading, exchanges between the hands, etc. in the midst of constant polyrhythms, accidentals everywhere, and shifting harmonies and tonal centers.  When I would open the score getting ready to practice, there were times it looked like an entirely new piece!  Well, I was glad to get it recorded and posted.  Many people are enjoying it now, which is the most important thing.

If I were to venture a guess between Catoire improvising or figuring out the polyphony and counterpoint but making it sound improvisational, I'd lean toward the latter.  I say that because Catoire was a well-respected faculty member teaching composition at the Moscow Conservatoire.  He wrote books and articles on composition which are still considered excellent reference works.  It suggests to me that he definitely had a formalistic side in that regard.  Either way though, his music is breathtaking! 

I appreciate your stopping by and commenting.  Thanks!

David
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline rv

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 03:15:04 PM
Sounds great.
Actually some of the little melodies remind me very much of Scriabin. Etude op. 42 no. 5 in particular.

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 03:39:25 PM
Thoroughly enjoyed this. I think furtwaengler has a point about the rubato, but nonetheless I found your interpretation convincing. What I thought particularly praiseworthy was the sonorities - I'm not familiar with the piece, but I suspect it is very easy to muddy them and lose control of the overall sound and musical lines.

Excellent!
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Offline allthumbs

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 07:42:51 PM
Hi Rachfan

Very nice performance of this piece indeed and I have nothing to add to the intelligent comments already made.

I'll just add the sheet music for the four pieces in the Opus for those who may wish to try these.

allthumbs
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Offline rachfan

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
Hi rv,

Yes, Scriabin does turn up at times in Catoire's idiom, but not at the expense of his originality.  There's great haunting beauty in his music.  In this particular Chant, I find a rich vocal texture in the polyphony too, and once the piece takes off, it's almost like the streaming vocal lines of a Wagner opera.
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline rachfan

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #11 on: August 16, 2009, 07:57:33 PM
Hi sylphes,

Thanks for listening, and your kind compliment.  Yes, the ears have to really control the sonorities in terms of voicing, polyphony and pedaling.  There are many other complexities in there too.  I'm relieved that I could record and post it.  I'm already preparing another of these pieces.  Thanks again.
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline rachfan

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #12 on: August 16, 2009, 08:02:11 PM
Hi allthumbs,

I thought of you the day I was recording this piece.  It had been over a month since the Baldwin had been tuned, but the summer humidity has kept the tuning in trim pretty well.  So I decided to do it rather than wait until the end of September.  Where you didn't comment on it, I guess you found it to be OK.

On the sheetmusic, here is my only caveat to musicians here:  Don't try this at home!!!  ;D ;D
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline allthumbs

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 04:41:04 AM
Hi allthumbs,

I thought of you the day I was recording this piece.  It had been over a month since the Baldwin had been tuned, but the summer humidity has kept the tuning in trim pretty well.  So I decided to do it rather than wait until the end of September.  Where you didn't comment on it, I guess you found it to be OK.

On the sheetmusic, here is my only caveat to musicians here:  Don't try this at home!!!  ;D ;D

Yes, I should have commented, your piano sounded great!
Sauter Delta (185cm) polished ebony 'Lucy'
Serial # 118 562

Offline rachfan

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Re: G. Catoire, "Chants du crepuscule", Op. 24, No. 2 in Fm
Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 02:13:30 PM
Whew!!!  Thanks allthumbs.   :)
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.
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