Urtext Henle Verlag

[Daniel_piano]

I have a doubt that make impossible for me to sleep at nigh ....
Why in the world the Urtext sheet music is so expensive ?
I'm required by my school to buy only Urtext editions (especially for Bach and Schubert) but the same sheet music that would cost normally (any other edition) 14€ costs (if you buy Urtext) as much as 34€

The same number of page, the same cover (in fact urtext has only blue cover without drawings or colours so it should cost less)

Are they better ?
I don't think so, in fact my teacher had to add the legatos and staccatos in all the bach sinfonias as there is no phrasing in the Urtext editions

So, please if you know the mistery ... why should I risk to be left with no foods because of all the money spent in books while I should spend less buying "better" editions ?

Why Urtext's are special and unbelievably expensive ?

Confused Daniel

[xvimbi]

Why in the world the Urtext sheet music is so expensive ?

It's very simple. There is usually only one publisher who has the rights to the Urtext. Therefore, they can ask any price they want. It's a unique privilege to be able to sell an Urtext version.

Are they better ?
I don't think so, in fact my teacher had to add the legatos and staccatos in all the bach sinfonias as there is no phrasing in the Urtext editions

Urtext has its merits. First, it's pristine. It's exactly what the composer wrote down (or very close to it). Every repected musician will consult the Urtext and not rely on an edited version, because there are many things wrong with edited versions. To name a few:
1. wrong notes
2. misleading fingerings
3. wrong phrasing
4. wrong accents
5. wrong voicing
6. wrong mordents
7. it goes on...

It is often difficult to find a well edited version of a piece. Go to the music store and compare different edited version of the same piece, and you will likely find vast differences. Which one is the "correct" version? By now, one knows pretty much, which version to trust and which ones are the bad ones, but it is not immediately obvious to the uninitiated.

I like to get the Urtext and then work it out for myself or together with other people. I like to compare to edited versions and then decide which way I would like to play it. You'd be amazed how much you can learn by doing that. Of course, if you are working on a Bach piece and have no Bach expert around, it might come out slightly wrong, but the process of analyzing the text is definitely worth it. Be very critical of what your teacher is writing in the score. Let him/her explain to you exactly why s/he is doing what. You may be able to learn a lot if your teacher is a Bach expert. If not, you're screwed  

[JK]

Urtext is expensive, a way that I occassionally get around it, for example if I already have an edited version and don't want to buy another, is to get an urtext out of the library and copy any differences into my version.

[thracozaag]

It's very simple. There is usually only one publisher who has the rights to the Urtext. Therefore, they can ask any price they want. It's a unique privilege to be able to sell an Urtext version.

Urtext has its merits. First, it's pristine. It's exactly what the composer wrote down (or very close to it). Every repected musician will consult the Urtext and not rely on an edited version, because there are many things wrong with edited versions. To name a few:
1. wrong notes
2. misleading fingerings
3. wrong phrasing
4. wrong accents
5. wrong voicing
6. wrong mordents
7. it goes on...

It is often difficult to find a well edited version of a piece. Go to the music store and compare different edited version of the same piece, and you will likely find vast differences. Which one is the "correct" version? By now, one knows pretty much, which version to trust and which ones are the bad ones, but it is not immediately obvious to the uninitiated.

I like to get the Urtext and then work it out for myself or together with other people. I like to compare to edited versions and then decide which way I would like to play it. You'd be amazed how much you can learn by doing that. Of course, if you are working on a Bach piece and have no Bach expert around, it might come out slightly wrong, but the process of analyzing the text is definitely worth it. Be very critical of what your teacher is writing in the score. Let him/her explain to you exactly why s/he is doing what. You may be able to learn a lot if your teacher is a Bach expert. If not, you're screwed  

 Don't fall into "pristine" trap about Henle Urtext, they're edited and suffer from the same problems you mentioned in your list to a greater or lesser degree.  It all depends on the quality (and concientiousness) of the editor.  THe only 'pristine' edition you'll ever get is to see the autograph manuscript for yourself.

koji

[xvimbi]

 Don't fall into "pristine" trap about Henle Urtext, they're edited and suffer from the same problems you mentioned in your list to a greater or lesser degree.  It all depends on the quality (and concientiousness) of the editor.  THe only 'pristine' edition you'll ever get is to see the autograph manuscript for yourself.

You are absolutely right. An Urtext version might not be that "Ur" text, if the original manuscript is not available or is illegible. In this case, even the Urtext must be edited, which is sometimes done rather poorly.

[squinchy]

Is Peters Urtext inferior to Henle Urtext?

[faulty_damper]

I think Urtext means Original text.

Anyway, edited versions are horrible and sometimes incude redundant markings.  A great example is Shirmer editions to beethoven's sonatas.  My god!  Did the editor get paid by the number of modifications?!  It's totally crap to a cowabungus degree.  So many redundant markings like it was written for a 1 year old without working knowledge of theory...

And very recently, I was gyped on a piece that I was learning that was part of the ABRSM grade 8 exam piece collection, Debussy's General Lavine -eccentric, the Barrock edition copyrighted 1996. (They left out "-eccentric" in the title, by the way.)  Anyway, the fingerings, if you followed them would be technically very inefficient and would be very difficult to play it well that way.  In fact, I played it horribly during a recent recital.  After looking at the sheet music and trying a diiferent way to play it, my technique improved dramatically!  I was amazed at how much easier it was had I just crossed hands instead of using one hand to play both staves.  And I had another edition without figering or damper markings to compare to and realized there were a couple of inaccuracies in the Barrock edition which would leave you with a wrong impression as to the pieces character.  I spent a couple of months learning this piece and attempting to get it up to performance quality was damn near imposible.  And I just realized that this crap edition was misleading!  This was yesterday.

Someone needs to have their head rammed up his ass... and he's probably still alive to have it happen since the edition was copyrighted in '96.

Okay, that's my rant.

[xvimbi]

I think Urtext means Original text.

Anyway, edited versions are horrible and sometimes incude redundant markings.  A great example is Shirmer editions to beethoven's sonatas.  My god!  Did the editor get paid by the number of modifications?!  It's totally crap to a cowabungus degree.  So many redundant markings like it was written for a 1 year old without working knowledge of theory...
Someone needs to have their head rammed up his ass... and he's probably still alive to have it happen since the edition was copyrighted in '96.
Okay, that's my rant.

Ouch, that must hurt!

faulty_damper, you are an experienced pianist, so I am very surprised at you!

Any edited version must be taken with a grain of salt. Just because someone adds some fingering, slurs, pedal markings, etc. does not mean one must follow to the dot. It is allowed to disagree with an editor! I would even say, one MUST challenge everything that's written; One must find the reason why an editor did what s/he did. Change the fingering (if necessary), because it is indeed sometimes ridiculous, as you say, or it might just not fit somebody's anatomy or technique. The phrasing might have been completely misunderstood. Notes might have been copied wrongly, etc.

The fact that there are different edited versions for the same piece already indicates that they can't all be "right". Perhaps, they are all "wrong". Or they might be equally interesting ways of interpreting a piece. Bottom line is, one must keep an open mind!

This doesn't do much good to a beginner, though. A beginner will need good and trustworthy guidance, but should always try to understand why things are done the way a teacher or editor says.

[faulty_damper]

Thanks for thinking I was experienced.  But I had to learn the Debussy prelude for a recital so I rushed to have it memorized and followed my teacher's advice about not crosing hands.  I thought my horrible performance was just my playing but nope!  Not my fault that I couldn't even hit those white things right.  But now that the recital has passed, I can take the time to learn it and add it to my repetory.  It's a great piece so it's definitely going to be performance quality in the next few months once I cross hands effectively.

Ironic, I know.

[Hmoll]

 
The same number of page, the same cover (in fact urtext has only blue cover without drawings or colours so it should cost less)

l

Daniel,
You're not buying paper, you're buying intellectual content. Henle tries to produce editions as close to the composers intentions as possible. However, Koji is right, they're still edited.

There is noting magical about the word Urtext, and Henle is not the only publisher who makes urtext editions.  

It's very simple. There is usually only one publisher who has the rights to the Urtext.  

Where did you hear this? Not true because a)   look at the Wiener and Henle catalogs, and see the overlap.  b) that statement presupposes the actual existence of Urtext.

If you look at what goes into making an authoratative edition - mixing and matching material from signature, manuscript, first edition, first German edition, etc. -  you realize there really is no Urtext. What is it - the manuscript, first edition, first edition after composers' revisions, etc.?  Anyone can call en edition Urtext, but they are still editions.

It's great that the editors at Henle and Wiener worked so hard to create these authoratative editions, but they are not without error.


BTW #1 - Henle is probably the best edition for Schubert, but Neue Bach Ausgabe, Breitkopf und Hartel is better for Bach.  In fact, you might want to ask your teacher about this. No one who knows what they're talking about thinks Henle is the best for every composer,

BTW #2 - If you have sticker shock at the prices of your sheet music, wait till you see the prices of the text books they want you to buy.

[thracozaag]

I think Urtext means Original text.

Anyway, edited versions are horrible and sometimes incude redundant markings.  A great example is Shirmer editions to beethoven's sonatas.  My god!  Did the editor get paid by the number of modifications?!  It's totally crap to a cowabungus degree.  So many redundant markings like it was written for a 1 year old without working knowledge of theory...

And very recently, I was gyped on a piece that I was learning that was part of the ABRSM grade 8 exam piece collection, Debussy's General Lavine -eccentric, the Barrock edition copyrighted 1996. (They left out "-eccentric" in the title, by the way.)  Anyway, the fingerings, if you followed them would be technically very inefficient and would be very difficult to play it well that way.  In fact, I played it horribly during a recent recital.  After looking at the sheet music and trying a diiferent way to play it, my technique improved dramatically!  I was amazed at how much easier it was had I just crossed hands instead of using one hand to play both staves.  And I had another edition without figering or damper markings to compare to and realized there were a couple of inaccuracies in the Barrock edition which would leave you with a wrong impression as to the pieces character.  I spent a couple of months learning this piece and attempting to get it up to performance quality was damn near imposible.  And I just realized that this crap edition was misleading!  This was yesterday.

Someone needs to have their head rammed up his ass... and he's probably still alive to have it happen since the edition was copyrighted in '96.

Okay, that's my rant.

 The ironic thing is that the absolute BEST edition of the Beethoven Concerti is....Schirmer.  Why?  Because it's edited by some guy named Czerny

koji

[Saturn]

 The ironic thing is that the absolute BEST edition of the Beethoven Concerti is....Schirmer.  Why?  Because it's edited by some guy named Czerny

koji

Where can you find these (online)?

I looked on sheetmusicplus.com and only could find the Beethoven concertos edited by a guy named Franz Kullak.

- Saturn

[pianiststrongbad]

Kullak includes notes of Czerny in these Beethoven concertos- i just learned no. 1 this last year out of that edition.  
Anyway, regarding the henle thing, the only thing i can say is that it is reliable.  I bought Beethoven's Schirmer editions of his sonatas a few years ago and there are wrong notes in several places.  I know they are wrong because beethoven would not write an arpeggio in key with the exception of one note being a half step off.  I of course checked with my teachers henle, and sure enough they were different.  If you don't want to buy Henle, I don't blame you, i don't like wasting that kind of money either, I have found Dover to be very cheap and good for my purposes.  For instance, I have the Paderewski edition of the Chopin Etudes published by Dover and in the back of the book there is 30+ pages of notes as to why the editor chose the things he did.  All the editor marks are in parenthesis so it makes it clear.   I occassionally use Kalmus also.  I think edited works can be useful though, for instance in that Beethoven Concerto edition published by schirmer, Czerny makes note of tempos that he heard Beethoven use and phrasing etc, which is written in the footnotes on those pages, rather than on the page.  I think that sorta thing is useful, and I am not sure if Henle would include that.

[faulty_damper]

 The ironic thing is that the absolute BEST edition of the Beethoven Concerti is....Schirmer.  Why?  Because it's edited by some guy named Czerny

koji

Many, if not all, of the Shirmer editions of Beethoven's sonatas were re-edited by some other person, not Czerny.

[donjuan]

I have Urtext editions of the Beethoven Sonatas "Universal Edition" which is great because it acts as a reference to the composer's original markings.  The only thing I hate is how the pages refuse to stay open in the huge books.  It is also helpful, as Xvimbi has mentioned, to have an edited version on hand to understand the editor's interpretation.  I, for example are so grateful to have Dover's edition of Liszt's Transcendental etudes, edited by Busoni.  I would have never came up with the innovative use of position shifts that make the music so much more playable.

donjuan

[maxy]

If I remember correctly, Urtext means based on the original.  So someone can edit a whole lot and still say Urtext.  Henle sometimes have horrible editors!  Good fingerings in "theory", but lame for actual execution.

Busoni editing Liszt in Dover edition?   I believe he also proposes the fingering of the Sauer (Peters) edition.  In fact we could say the Sauer version is the fingering by Liszt himself...  

Impose Henle Verlag, that is not good!

[iumonito]

Many, if not all, of the Shirmer editions of Beethoven's sonatas were re-edited by some other person, not Czerny.

Bulow.  It is anachronistic to follow it but so XXth century to ignore it.  Bulow (like Klindworth and Czerny) were great musicians.  Only a fool would dismiss them today in favor of exclussively following the Wallners of the world.

Check this out, for example:

https://www.tecla.com/extras/1001/1001/1001note.htm

[rach3pianoconcerto]

Have any of you heard of the willard A. Palmer editions or the Keith Snell editions? Wondering if i could get some feedback. Thanks
Regards

-----Rach

[faulty_damper]

Is not Palmer an editor for Alfred performing editions?

What's nice about Alfred editions is that it tells you on the cover who the editor is and once you look inside, you'll imediately recieve much more information that you'd never even thought to think.

In some editions (J.S. Bach's Works, usually) there are many editorial markings, in grey print, not black, and seems to be for students who are very inexperienced about style, notation, etc. of the pieces.  This is actually very helpful but experienced students would find it quite a nuisance.  This only applies to certain editions.

Some benefits of Alfred performing editions are that
1. you get more background information that you wouldn't ever know unless you became a scholar and some editions even provide pictures to illustrate the pieces.
2. some editions will actually cite incorrect markings or errors from other revered editions (e.g. Henle Urtext*)
3. clear print.  It's much easier to read than some other publishers.
4. relatively inexpensive and considering the quality and durabilty, more than worth the price.



*As a consequence, Henle Urtext has re-issued "revised" editions (e.g. Schumann's Novelettes, Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, etc.) because of these errors.