Awful determination of time.

[loonbohol]

I have already a decision for an Etude
My decision is CHOPIN Etude Op.10 No.5

I know it is rather difficult but it is a must for me to complete it.
I know that the performance will be done in summer of 2010.
But I must get into the level of Yundi Lee,Lang Lang.

I cannot move backward, I used all my determination.
I started my list of the learning routine,
First routine is to repeat the first two lines 300 times. then the other two lines by 300 lines.
then repeat the all practiced lines together for 300 times. then go on...

THis will ensure me that I will not give in to fustration.
I ignored everything and started playing.
It seems that I was playing the piano like a robot.
I did not even try to think about time , success etc....
My focus was only to repeat the passage 300 times.

When I had completed it it has already been 1 hour and 8 minutes past.
When I started on the second passage, It seems that my mind is not already on the proper mindset.   I started to feel dizzy and it seems that the room is melting.
THen my head started aching.

For my dreams, I know that I have to push through and even though it is in the middle of the day,
It seems that I have never slept for 5 days.

I actually do not know but, It seems that there was something strange going on and I really felt something strange which I cannot really describe ( something that it seems that I cannot concentrate).
Something like after staying in a party for over 10 hours, It seems that your head is dazing off.
I believe that some pianists already felt that.



My method work and I was able to make an estimation of Etude learning time.
which is based on staffs*my method.
I do not explain my method properly.
Or I was not able to explain my method properly.

Formula(Loonbohol's finishing time)=[Time it takes to finish 2 staffs(played at slow slow)*number of staffs*200]*[number of staffs/4]

Examples:  *repeated staffs already calculated
               *based on loonbohol's Ability

Chopin Etude Op.25 No.11 = 485 hours 58 minutes of practice
Chopin Etude Op.10 No.1 = 254 hours 32 minutes of practice
Chopin Etude Op.10 No.4 = 233 hours 16 minutes of practice
Chopin Etude Op.25 No.12 = 199 hours 47 minutes of practice

No wonder such etudes are so hard.
For playing a long time in the Piano, I did not realized that I needed this so much determination and hard-work for this instrument.

Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 5 only take 146 hours 4 minutes of practice

Question no.1
     Is this your average learning time?  Is this really true.

Question no.2
     Is this proper method?

Question no.3
    What Happened when I play it(Some sort of feeling)?

Fact one:
    At least 900 hours of study is needed to attain the Highest Japanese Language Proficiency

[imbetter]

I have already a decision for an Etude
My decision is CHOPIN Etude Op.10 No.5

I know it is rather difficult but it is a must for me to complete it.
I know that the performance will be done in summer of 2010.
But I must get into the level of Yundi Lee,Lang Lang.

I cannot move backward, I used all my determination.
I started my list of the learning routine,
First routine is to repeat the first two lines 300 times. then the other two lines by 300 lines.
then repeat the all practiced lines together for 300 times. then go on...

THis will ensure me that I will not give in to fustration.
I ignored everything and started playing.
It seems that I was playing the piano like a robot.
I did not even try to think about time , success etc....
My focus was only to repeat the passage 300 times.

When I had completed it it has already been 1 hour and 8 minutes past.
When I started on the second passage, It seems that my mind is not already on the proper mindset.   I started to feel dizzy and it seems that the room is melting.
THen my head started aching.

For my dreams, I know that I have to push through and even though it is in the middle of the day,
It seems that I have never slept for 5 days.

I actually do not know but, It seems that there was something strange going on and I really felt something strange which I cannot really describe ( something that it seems that I cannot concentrate).
Something like after staying in a party for over 10 hours, It seems that your head is dazing off.
I believe that some pianists already felt that.



My method work and I was able to make an estimation of Etude learning time.
which is based on staffs*my method.
I do not explain my method properly.
Or I was not able to explain my method properly.

Formula(Loonbohol's finishing time)=[Time it takes to finish 2 staffs(played at slow slow)*number of staffs*200]*[number of staffs/4]

Examples:  *repeated staffs already calculated
               *based on loonbohol's Ability

Chopin Etude Op.25 No.11 = 485 hours 58 minutes of practice
Chopin Etude Op.10 No.1 = 254 hours 32 minutes of practice
Chopin Etude Op.10 No.4 = 233 hours 16 minutes of practice
Chopin Etude Op.25 No.12 = 199 hours 47 minutes of practice

No wonder such etudes are so hard.
For playing a long time in the Piano, I did not realized that I needed this so much determination and hard-work for this instrument.

Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 5 only take 146 hours 4 minutes of practice

Question no.1
     Is this your average learning time?  Is this really true.

Question no.2
     Is this proper method?

Question no.3
    What Happened when I play it(Some sort of feeling)?

Fact one:
    At least 900 hours of study is needed to attain the Highest Japanese Language Proficiency

I know this is a little off topic but I know Lang Lang and Yundi li are good and all but there are much more compelling artists to aim for I'm curious as to why you choose them.

[iroveashe]

I know this is a little off topic but I know Lang Lang and Yundi li are good and all but there are much more compelling artists to aim for I'm curious as to why you choose them.

You're not the only one thinking that.
But as much as people like or dislike those 2 pianists and their personal choices on how to play their repertoire, I don't think anyone can reach their level in one year.

Back on topic, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but practicing like a robot won't get you too far I think. You'll repeat 2 lines 300 times? So if by the 180th time for example you have it, you'll keep playing, not only wasting time, but probably tiring your brain and arms/hands, risking injury and of course you'll start making mistakes, which surely after the remaining 120 times you'll end up learning.

Sometimes you can learn more by practicing 15 minutes, taking a walk and playing 15 more minutes than practicing 5 hours straight.

Question no.1
     Is this your average learning time?

1:08 hours to learn 2 lines is not my average learning time, no.

Question no.2
     Is this proper method?

I wouldn't say so.

Question no.3
    What Happened when I play it(Some sort of feeling)?

How could we know?

Fact one:
    At least 900 hours of study is needed to attain the Highest Japanese Language Proficiency

900 in, say 450 days, practicing 2 hours a day could work, but if you try to study 90 hours a week, I doubt you'll be able to achieve that after 2 months and a half.

[richard black]

If it takes you hundreds of hours to learn a single Chopin study, you shouldn't be working on Chopin studies yet - not seriously, anyway. Learn some Mozart sonatas, for heaven's sake, or something mechanically straightforward like that. If you learn something like Chopin studies just by massive repetition (which may be possible, I suppose) and by some miracle make it into music college with them, you'll be wasting your time in college anyway because you'll be miles out of your depth.

[ahinton]

If it takes you hundreds of hours to learn a single Chopin study, you shouldn't be working on Chopin studies yet - not seriously, anyway. Learn some Mozart sonatas, for heaven's sake, or something mechanically straightforward like that. If you learn something like Chopin studies just by massive repetition (which may be possible, I suppose) and by some miracle make it into music college with them, you'll be wasting your time in college anyway because you'll be miles out of your depth.

Very wise advice - that ought to be entirely unnecessary, but obviously in this particular context it isn't. That said, there is much to be said for practising the études of Chopin as long as one does not necessarily expect to perform them as an immediate consequence, at least until one is fully ready to do so. Even Ronald Smith, the English pianist to whom Chopin, Alkan, Liszt, etc. were second nature for some 60 years still feared Chopin's Op. 10 études quite late in life, to the extent that he still felt that they needed plenty of work. So - yes, study the études of Chopin and practise them - along with the WTC and other things - but do not necessarily expect that this will make it possible for you to present them in a public recital for the time being. Jonathan Powell - a member of this forum and one of today's most remarkable pianists - has said that in his preparatory work on repertoire from all eras he has yet to encounter any problem that does not admit of some kind of solution somewhere in Bach or Chopin. Just don't expect to go out there and perform repertoire that's beyond you for the time being - but don't let that discourage you from sensible and methodical practice of it if it can offer all the wondrous things that are to be found in the études, préludes and other works of Chopin and the 48, French Suites, Goldberg Variations and other keyboard works of Bach.

OK, so that's the "advice" of a non-pianist, but there...

Best,

Alistair

[Bob]

I don't think learning is a straight path.  Or it is, if you stay how you are now.  But your body and mind change and then everything's different.  That's good -- Otherwise it really would take a huge amount of time. 

[loonbohol]

It seems that my mind starts to adjust to the etude.
I can just do a line in 95~100 repetitions. 
I am inj line 16 in Chopin Etude Op.10 no.5
But it is still difficult.
It will still take me 74 hours to perform.
I can now do it in 36 days.

Another problem is that,my hands slips off the black keys making me hit te white keys.

If it takes you hundreds of hours to learn a single Chopin study, you shouldn't be working on Chopin studies yet - not seriously, anyway. Learn some Mozart sonatas, for heaven's sake, or something mechanically straightforward like that. If you learn something like Chopin studies just by massive repetition (which may be possible, I suppose) and by some miracle make it into music college with them, you'll be wasting your time in college anyway because you'll be miles out of your depth.

I have learned about 12 which I was not able to complete about five of them.
And If you guess that most of the Etudes are the easiest etudes.
You are 80% right.
And it took hundreds of hours.

[franzliszt2]

I wound say, it takes a few hours to learn a Chopin etude, and a lifetime to perfect. It is NOT a case of mindless repetition. You must go through every single note and work out exactly how to play it. Even when you have worked out how, you have to practice it properly and very carefully.

[gorucan]

I know this is a little off topic but I know Lang Lang and Yundi li are good and all but there are much more compelling artists to aim for I'm curious as to why you choose them.

Probably he admires asian artists because he is asian?

You will profit more from 5 times repeating with careful listening of harmony, intervals, thinking about fingerings, hand positions... than robiting 300 times. Think about it maybe go to some masterclasses (in Europe, if you're not european)

[nanabush]

Haha, the original post looks like a poem.

If you try to use a mathematical model to learn a piece, you will get no where.  It's good to set goals, and try to budget your time... but seriously, if it's going to take you 146 hours to learn the Op 10 #5, then you should probably be playing easier repertoire, and building up your technique.

What if you come across a measure that has tougher material, containing a technique you haven't mastered?  You haven't accounted for any variables in your model.

If you practice that etude for, say, 4 hours a day (which is already a LOAD of time), then it will take you ~37 days to learn that etude.  If you dedicate pretty much all of your practicing time on that one piece for an entire month, according to your model, you will finish the piece.  That is probably not a good approach (some may disagree); you should be playing balanced repertoire, some contrasting stuff.  Devoting 4 hours to one piece for an entire month will drive you insane.  Even more so for any piece longer than that.  What if you tried learning a concerto? 

There are far better ways to approach learning a piece, which is why you may want to look in getting a teacher (if you already haven't).

Some stuff you might want to look at:

-Master all of the scales/arpeggios/chords/etc.  Try getting fast tempos for those (and you can devote a day to a single technique in all keys, or every technique for one key if you want).  It will benefit in the long run.
-Learn some Bach!  Play a Mozart sonata or two, get a feel for a larger variety of music - you will learn to appreciate it.
-Try some easier Chopin (Waltez, Nocturnes).  These are ALSO well respected pieces.  Don't keep thinking you need to play fast, difficult pieces to get anything out of the instrument.
-Try sight reading through one of these pieces; time yourself.  If it takes you several hours to sight read through an etude, then you should wait a few years before attempting it 


You're skipping all the intermediary steps.  It's like trying to read a book in a new language without having learned any of the words.  You'll struggle through it and possibly get it after how many ever hundred hours your model says.  Take some time to work up to it!

[mcdiddy1]

The first thing you should do is get an experience piano instructor to help you obtain your goals. Nothing is difficult if you know how to practice EFFICIENTLY. Etudes especially are designed to overcome a specific difficult so find out what that is and mastering will get you results quicker. Simply repeating a line assumes that what your playing is perfect and can be played at a quick speed. You will discover some fingerings work slow but don't work well fast so you need a mix of slow and fast practice. To get on the pianist you mentioned level you have to keep in mind the use of various types of pianistic tones, emotional content, historical style traits, melodic direction, dynamics articulation while playing with accuracy at a high level. They have had training in these areas and a mountain of experience doing that in the past. Simply being able to get to the end of the piece doesnt mean you have accomplished everything it had to offer. You don't want to play like a robot like you said so you should use what makes you unique from technology and thats the brain and its ability to comprehend on emotional levels. If you practice the right way there is no reason you shouldnt be able to learn it in month or too very well if you practice 1 or 2 hours a day if that long. Think about it , if you practice a passage incorrectly for 900 hours , how difficult would it be to unlearn it and what damage u have done in your technique and the wasted opportunity to get it right from day one