What is the limit on what you can learn if you start learning at a late age?

[k4kuz0]

Hey! I'm pretty new here so i apologize if i have posted this in the wrong section

My question is tangible from a few other questions i've been looking up before: Most virtuosos start playing the piano very young, at LEAST below the age of 7 i believe, and i have repeatedly seen posts of people asking "can you still become a concert pianist if you start at a late age" where the most common response is pretty much a euphemism for... No.

Well my question arises from that, I am currently 16 years old, and i started playing the piano when i was 14, after 2 years i have learned mostly by myself (if you count researching how to read sheet music and things on the internet as 'yourself'). I wonder how far i can take myself in terms of 'skill' or 'virtuosity'. My music teacher remarked on my fast paced learning, and how i have progressed very quickly despite the setback of my age, but i can help but feel disconcerted by the clear set back that my starting age is. How far CAN i go before my learning will appear to, i don't know, stop? This question arose from my love of classical music, and in particular, Prokofiev and Rachmaninoff.

I'm currently at a Grade 6(ish) level, i think that based on what i know of the grading and the difficulty of the pieces therein.

Thank you

P.S: I'm sure there is no definitive answer to this question, but i'm just curious and would like opinions

[gyzzzmo]

Depends on the person i think. There has been some brain-research between virtuoses and non-piano players, and the virtuoses had some parts of their brains more developed, and there was better interaction between the 2 brain parts.
Their explanation was that it was due to the fact that both hands were much more used (and 'thinked-with' seperatly, the brains evolve that way because of it.

On later age the brains dont have that much flexibility anymore and learning/adapting goes slower. So in that way youre limited if you start on later ages.
But it also depends on the person: Some people are just alot more dual-handed than others for whatever for reason.

So in general i think you could say that you wont become one of those extreme virtuoses if you start on a later age, but that doesnt mean you cant get very good at playing the piano.

Gyzzzmo

Gyzzzmo

[rob_the_dude]

Hi

I'm 17 and was in pretty much the same boat as you. I've been playing for about 2 1/2 years now, and passed my Grade 8 after 18 months. I've only started to switch on to a proper practice 'ethic' recently, so a lot was done before then without a 'good' teacher. The thing I found to my slight detriment was that you have to go over things very meticulously, something I never did. So I doubt that starting at a later age has much of a difference.

Hope this helps 

Rob

P.S. Good Luck 

[k4kuz0]

Thank you for the replies

Yeah i'm sure it does depend on the person, but there is something 'off putting' about watching some of my favourite piano pieces, and knowing that because of my late start i may never be able to play them... I guess i'll just have to keep on practicing

Thanks again xx

[weissenberg2]

If you work hard you could probably get to the level of a concert pianist, not a super-virtuoso like Richter, but good enough.

[zheer]

I believe there are many pianists that start early and still don't play very well, also I've heard many storys of people giving piano up because the started too early. I guess starting the piano at 30 will be a serious disadvantage. One more thing unless you are a genius, never compare yourself to one. You can definitely be an outstanding pianist if you start in your teen, this forum has many outstanding pianists, but non are genius and will never reach international concert pianist level, so to answer the question don't believe the crap about having to start the day you're born.



   

[weissenberg2]

this forum has many outstanding pianists, but non are genius and will never reach international concert pianist level,

   

That is unclear. Why would they not reach professional pianist level if they are outstanding?

[tds]

Gyzzzmo

Gyzzzmo

yup, it does look better when u sine ur name twice

[zheer]

That is unclear. Why would they not reach professional pianist level if they are outstanding?

Being a professional pianist is different from being a pianist like Lang Lang for instance, Lang Lang is more than just outstanding, he's sensational, recognized globally. I'm sorry if I sound like a snob.

[mrba1979]

Thank you for the replies

Yeah i'm sure it does depend on the person, but there is something 'off putting' about watching some of my favourite piano pieces, and knowing that because of my late start i may never be able to play them... I guess i'll just have to keep on practicing

Thanks again xx

I think interestingly enough the rather campy slogan, "accept what we can not change, and change what can not accept" applies here.

Have one of those favorite piano pieces as a goal, and work towards it.  If you are at grade 6ish then keep progressing up the ladder until your dream piece is more of an attainable goal.  If you are honest and patient with yourself you will know when the time is appropriate. 

Also at the same time do not jump the gun.  Here is what happens when you do.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=34664.0

[mannja]

I think it depends on the individual but even more on your work ethic and determination than anything else.

I started playing piano when I took class piano for non-majors as an undergrads. I was 17. I liked it so much I changed my major from trumpet to piano. 4 1/2 years later I'm in the middle of a master's in piano performance and playing virtuoso pieces. Am I as good as someone who started when they were 5? not technically, but I've got just as much if not more heart, and that's what matters in music.

So basically, in my humble opinion, you'll only stop progressing when you decide to.

[peterjmathis]

You could still get very good, it will just take longer. I think part of the reason you're progressing faster than normal is your clear enthusiasm for the piano, so don't let worries about a possible cap on your abilities get you down (it might end being a self-fulfilling prophecy).

[jbmorel78]

I only reply because this thread seems to have been resurrected, so to the original poster (if he or she is still present) and anyone else asking the same question...

You create a limit by asking this question!  It may be true that things are more difficult with age, but you must believe that there is no limit (this is true for anyone, from 3 years to 90 years and beyond)...  The only substantial difference between the younger ones and the older ones is that the older ones ask what the limit is!

Best,
JBM

[lostinidlewonder]

Such a small amount of graduating pianists from any university become concerting pianists even if they played piano their whole life (I would say often there are years where zero graduating musicians become full time concerting musicians in many university across the world!). Concerting is a business more so than a pianistic skill, you can play better than anyone in the world and still never become a successful concerting pianist.

Everyone can play difficult pieces with enough practice, but the amount of time it takes can vary and most people will learn at a very inefficient rate. Maybe someone who is bad at the piano can learn... say a Beethoven Sonata in 20 years, but someone with the masters method, technique and talent can do so in a couple of days. Rate your ability at the piano by the time it takes to master a piece.

Throwing out the concept of being a concerting pianist, can everyone become top class pianists if they start late? I would say no, most people cannot reach the highest levels of piano if they start late, but some can of course. What specifically separates those who could to those who couldn't? Several main things in my mind: 1) Discipline 2) Ability to change views completely 3)Autodidactic approach when understanding the hands and ears whilst playing music.

Most adults do not have the ability to do 2) 3), they can't do 2) because they have done something for too many years to change, the habit cannot be broken without a lot of time spent trying to reconstruct it. The physical feeling from 3) is more readily accepted by children, their hands have not done many special movements and their brain is hungry to learn them, but adults have many complicated movements with their hands learnt and the brain does not really want to have to learn more that has not enhanced life previously.

3) tends to be blocked in adults because of the mass conscious thought that is undergone while playing piano. Children tend to not think so much and just do, they can judge with less conscious thought what feels better and what feels worse, but adults tend to put everything into words which may slow ones progress down when it comes to understanding their hands and ears at work with the piano. One passage might have 10 logical statements we could apply to our hands and ears, where it is more efficient to merely do it and understand the result as a whole rather than the leaves of a tree.

Discipline is something very tough to teach adults as well much easier to teach children. An adult who practice an undisciplined approach to life throughout their life will find it very hard to all of a sudden work in a musical world with discipline. In reality learning a musical instrument is a whole lot of hard work, the nice sounding music produced as the end result is only after a huge amount of suffering, work and struggle.



There are of course more factors effecting older students of music more so than the younger.

[indianajo]

Go for it, at 16 your brain should be pretty flexible and still growing.  Piano and other crafts allow one to develop coordination of the brain and the hands, finding this level of coordination is what is so difficult as an adult.  Be sure to grind through the fingering exercises assigned by your teacher: they really develop a control of the 4th and 5th fingers, as well as hand body position knowledge that would be difficult to get as an adult.  As far as making money as a pianist goes, there is a certain track from youth contests to young adult exhibitions to the concert circuit.  You have missed that bus. You have to live in a major city and have the right parents to get on this track anyway.   But as far as learning anything you want, if you get the fundamental coordination and feel down now, you can learn what you want.  I had to drop piano for at 18 for economic reason, besides being good but not a child prodigy.  But I am learning any piece I want now that I am retired.  Not in a couple of days, like a pro, but I am learning tough repretoire.  In the last three months I have started organ, playing as a starter piece on the pedals a piece with a two octave span.  I'm getting it, hands and feet together, and the foot part is nothing I learned as a kid. At 59 1/2, the brain is not dead yet. 

[kookaburra]

my question arises from that, I am currently 16 years old,

oh! when the topic said 'old', I thought you meant like, 60 or 70.
You're not too old. you're never too old to get into music. I mean, let's say you'll live to be 80, and you spent the first 14 years not practicing piano, that still gives you a whopping 66 years to play piano, assuming you plan to do so for the rest of your life. Plenty of time.
I am also a young person, and I don't think being 'older' has been much of a setback. (depending on the kind of music people you are around. If you are competing with a bunch of 8 year olds who play concertos, that is no fun.) Not starting real early is more of a problem in pursuits such as gymnastics, which is extremely age and performance oriented. True, you're not going to get the award for child virtuoso, if that's what you have in mind. However, I see no reason why there should be a cap on your learning ability, and how far you can go, because of not starting earlier. As for your rate of learning, this is based on what instruction you have, your motivation, and natural ability, which may be affected by your age but is not directly related to it. Your goal in piano affects a lot: do you want to learn it because it's a useful thing, because other people are doing it, because you like music, because you want be a concert pianist or called a musician, because you want to make money, because you're bored, because you want to do a service for your community or world, because you want recognition, or because all your relatives are pianists and it would be a dissapointment if you are not?

I have about a 5-year level of experience. Here's what I found, and others say this is true for them also:

The first two years is the worst. (I wasn't the one who wanted me to play piano. I hated it.)Even if you like it, and you might eventually get so frustrated as to not like it, trudge through. It will get better. Try to learn as much as you can, so this won't take so long.

After about two years level or time (whichever comes later),hopefully, there's a light. You finally know enough notes to sight-read to some degree, and you're actually playing REAL SONGS, instead of excercises with words on them to make you think they're songs. This is a great encouragement, as also about the same time, some of the things your teacher has been drumming into your head finally make sense to you. In fact, you actually start to like it. (if you didn't already. I didn't.)
After that is gets better. and better. because there's a wonderful world of music out there to play and enjoy. Just don't jump in too deep too fast.

Of course learning goes up and down. There will always be good and bad parts.

One of the disadvantages of starting later, is using books with babyish words and pictures. solution: go dig up some piano instruction books from 80  or 100 or more years ago. older the better. (maybe in your attic) Most likely they will be strait forward, black and white, have no goofy pictures. (and they will be HARD.). Some old books have been reprinted by publishers, so you can get a new old book.

Hope that helps.

Keep it up - you can learn as much as you want. If you have the gift of music, that's a head start.
There can never be too many musicians.

[pollydendy]

I wish you the best.  I think that you have the most important qualification: wanting to play and the second:practicing.  I envy your teacher the joy of teaching you.
 You are still young, so you have a great opportunity to make fast progress.  You  still have that fast-learning body and brain of youth  and you are mature enough to learn with an adult perspective.  This is perfect!  Don't give up!
 I re-started  when I was 12 or 13, and my fastest and best progress was when I was in highschool.  I also studied again at a university as an adult and had great results. 
When I teach, I find that usually a 6 year old will make the progress in a month that a 4 year old does in 6 months or more,  and an adult will do in 2 years what a child will do in 6, so keep it up! 
You have a while life of joyful music ahead of you.