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Topic: Bach = Macho ?  (Read 5097 times)

Offline alessandro

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Bach = Macho ?
on: September 14, 2009, 10:56:30 AM
Goodday dear forumeers,
A little hint for some conversation on this thought that came to my mind, again, recently and that I never talked deeply about with somebody.  I remember exactly the first time that I was a little puzzled when a girl reacted in a conversation on music and stated "I don't like Bach" (as music) in a way that one could easily understand that she 'hated' Bach.  Now, that one doesn't like Bach is for me hard to grasp, but I couldn't avoid to link it to gender, like 'maybe it is because she is a girl, and Bach is sometimes a little square and mathematical, that she doesn't like it'.  For me, Bach is really, well, I'll be moderated, one of my favourites.  If I give myself a treat, and want to have a nice enjoying moment, if I want some real 'time of my life', I put on Bach, lay down, close my eyes and there I go, floating away in a wonderful like ecstatic state of mind, a light (I will make the descriptive job easy for me) "spiritual" state of mind.  Now, I had this feeling again just with the two-part inventions recently, a true moment of joy.  And that is why I start this topic, dear forumeers, I like Bach really much.   But I never met a girl or woman, with the same enthusiasm about Bach.  This is not a cheap way of seducing on the forum.  But I simply wonder, is Bach mainly and plainly enjoyable for man.   There is probably a gender side to music (like Chopin-female, Death-Metal-male, trumpet-male, violin-female etcetera) and is it so that Bach is also more male than female ? And if you (dis)-agree, what could be the other reason(s) than the 'mathematical-square' aspect which spoken of in the beginning ?
Kindly.
 

Offline pianochick93

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #1 on: September 14, 2009, 01:08:24 PM
You make a good point. I'm a girl, and baroque music just isn't really my thing. I can't really appreciate the harmonies and stuff - it just seems too wooden. There are a few pieces I'll make exceptions for (Bach's Violin Concerto in A minor, for one. Also Vivaldi) but not many. I can't stand to play baroque on the piano, because I'm not allowed to use the pedal. It seems so detached.
I'm a pianist firmly fixated in the romantic era. I love the occasional oddness, the beautiful harmonies, and the use of the pedal. It is my piano addiction, and I guess I see romantic music as more expressive.
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Offline samjohnson

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #2 on: September 14, 2009, 03:14:02 PM
I like both Bach and Chopin.

What does that make me?

Offline bella_brito

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 04:49:59 PM
I'm a girl and I love Bach.  ::)
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline iroveashe

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 05:08:27 PM
I think Bach's more of an intellectual pleasure than macho, and most girls seem to be more on the sensitive side rather than intellectual. And by intellectual I don't mean smart, just a different approach.
"By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision."
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #5 on: September 14, 2009, 05:14:58 PM
If you play Chopin to a woman, she will demand you make love to her.

Play Bach and she will do the ironing. Bach is too intellectual to stimulate the female senses.

Thal
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Offline gep

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #6 on: September 14, 2009, 05:53:07 PM
If you play Chopin to a woman, she will demand you make love to her.

Play Bach and she will do the ironing. Bach is too intellectual to stimulate the female senses.

Thal
Really? Depends on which Bach and which woman, I'd guess....
Play a lot of Chopin, do you? Or do you need some Bach on your clothes?
What does Bach on a banjo make a woman do, I wonder... Take your wallet and go chopin?

gep
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline argerichfan

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #7 on: September 14, 2009, 06:07:11 PM
Bach is too intellectual to stimulate the female senses.
But not too intellectual for female organists, of which there are -and have been- many great players of Bach. 

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #8 on: September 14, 2009, 06:46:39 PM
Really? Depends on which Bach and which woman, I'd guess....


I cannot imagine a woman getting all hot and flustered over a Bach fugue, but a Chopin nocturne can snap knicker elastic at 30 paces.

I am certain this could be proven by experimentation.

Thal
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Offline weissenberg2

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #9 on: September 14, 2009, 08:23:31 PM
There may be a tendency for girls to not like Bach, but that is generalizing. Generalizations are rarely true.
"A true friend is one who likes you despite your achievements." - Arnold Bennett

Offline communist

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 08:28:49 PM
Maybe it is because girls tend to like cheesy melodies (E.G. Chopin nocturnes) and Bach rarely has much melodic material (with exceptions). Bach is harmonic, not melodic.

Maybe you would have better luck playing them Scarlatti.
"The stock markets go up and down, Bach only goes up"

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Offline samjohnson

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 09:48:10 PM
Maybe it is because girls tend to like cheesy melodies (E.G. Chopin nocturnes) and Bach rarely has much melodic material (with exceptions). Bach is harmonic, not melodic.


What exactly do you mean by cheesy?  That is a very inefficient adjective.  Perhaps you would consider mysterious, brooding, sensitive, etc. before you begin to compare music to dairy products. 

Offline communist

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 10:11:11 PM
What exactly do you mean by cheesy?  That is a very inefficient adjective.  Perhaps you would consider mysterious, brooding, sensitive, etc. before you begin to compare music to dairy products. 

By cheesy I meant: over-romanticized, fake emotionally, unoriginal etc...

My I ask which country you live in? The idiom where I live may have caused the mis-communication.
"The stock markets go up and down, Bach only goes up"

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Offline alessandro

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #13 on: September 15, 2009, 11:22:08 AM
Dear forumeers,
The number of replies enchants me, already many thanks, but I'm still curious to the more deeper characteristics of the differences between the enjoyment of listening to Bach and well, let's use the track that is already visible in this topic, Chopin.  

I think Bach's more of an intellectual pleasure than macho, and most girls seem to be more on the sensitive side rather than intellectual. And by intellectual I don't mean smart, just a different approach.

I stated 'Macho', I thought it looked nice to attract the attention and it is not too far from the main idea of the question (though it is in my eyes already visible that there is some underlying 'macho-ness' in some of the answers and I also do feel that one could quickly step on another one toes, so I'll try not to be too macho and try to be careful).  I'm curious about the use of the word 'intellectual'.  The pleasure for me is at least sensorial (aural ? sense) and therefor by extent of course "naturally" intellectual.  (In opposite to for instance Schubert, which gives me more, after the intellectual pleasure, a hearty pleasure, it is more spinal and often heartwarming, intimate, "it speaks to you as a long known friend would speak softly to you".   Bach stays in my brain and lifts my entire body, being.  With Schubert I stay grounded.   Chopin is more tickling, if I would try to describe the pleasure of listening to Chopin the word 'peace, rest, friend, harmony' does not come to mind, although I'm also particularly fond of Chopin.    But back to Bach...
I do not agree, dear Iroveashe, with the fact that you seem to prefer to link sensitivity to girls and not intellect.   The first reason is that, for me, sensitivity is a partner of intelligence.   Secondly, I thought that girls liked foreplay, were not too keen on quick pleasures in general,  they like when thing lasts, when the things go on-and-on (at least as far as I know), woman like depth.   For me, a woman, and I may have an idealistic view of them, do not always like "the shortest way", they like to make a little twist, a little "detour" to get were they want.   A little bit in the spirit of "it is more the trip that matters than the destination".
  
There may be a tendency for girls to not like Bach, but that is generalizing. Generalizations are rarely true.

I think I do understand what you mean but saying that "generalizations are rarely true" is a 'ellipse' in itself.  It is true that generalizations are of no big importance.  

I think that gender identity is something changing, something that (d)evoluates.  Since I feel attracted to the 'other', I thought it could be fun to get a little closer to the gender characteristics via sharing our thoughts on the experience of listening to Bach music.   I'll be a little more precise by giving the example of Goldbergvariation 25, which is for me more delight than joy, maybe that this example could add some more specificity to the conversation.
  
Heck, I have to get back to work.  Hope to get back soon.  Have a very nice day you all.




Offline gep

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 12:29:32 PM
As for the "Bach ain't no good for ladies" tendency apparent somewhere here, may I point out the connection Bach/Landowska? Landowska being the person who has recorded what perhaps may be the very finest of Bach performances? AND a lady!

gep
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline iroveashe

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 02:36:49 PM
As for the "Bach ain't no good for ladies" tendency apparent somewhere here, may I point out the connection Bach/Landowska? Landowska being the person who has recorded what perhaps may be the very finest of Bach performances? AND a lady!

gep
And Rosalyn Tureck too. But I think the topic is more about the general character of Bach's music, not about specific musicians.
"By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision."
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Offline iroveashe

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #16 on: September 15, 2009, 03:50:45 PM
I do not agree, dear Iroveashe, with the fact that you seem to prefer to link sensitivity to girls and not intellect.   The first reason is that, for me, sensitivity is a partner of intelligence.
I don't prefer to link sensitivity and not intellect. What I meant is, a chocolate cake is not only made of chocolate, yet we call it chocolate cake because it's the main aspect of it. Every person can be both intellectual, sensitive, and many other things at the same time, but sometimes there's one particular aspect which stands out, even if it's just a bit, more than the others.


Secondly, I thought that girls liked foreplay, were not too keen on quick pleasures in general,  they like when thing lasts, when the things go on-and-on (at least as far as I know), woman like depth.   For me, a woman, and I may have an idealistic view of them, do not always like "the shortest way", they like to make a little twist, a little "detour" to get were they want.
A little bit in the spirit of "it is more the trip that matters than the destination".
I don't see how all of that is related to being sensitive/intellectual or not, or even with gender, I'm like that and I'm not a woman.
"By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision."
Bruno Walter

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #17 on: September 15, 2009, 05:07:01 PM
As for the "Bach ain't no good for ladies" tendency apparent somewhere here, may I point out the connection Bach/Landowska? Landowska being the person who has recorded what perhaps may be the very finest of Bach performances? AND a lady!

Looking at some of her photos, i ain't so sure.

Thal
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Offline aslanov

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #18 on: September 16, 2009, 02:34:23 AM
im a guy, and bach is not a favourite of mine. infact i HATED bach until recently. Now i can appreciate his music, but i dont listen to it as frequently as other composers.
The reason why ANYONE, female or male, would not like bach (like myself) is because i found that bach's music has different qualities than chopin, for example. the romantic and melodic qualities of chopins music is very closely related to much of the music everyone is bombarded with everyday (popular). however bach's music is far detached from all of those. And to make matter worse, it is quite complicated music, that requires knowledge of counterpoint and the fugal form to truly appreciate. and on TOP of all that, i've found, that bach's music requires multiple listening until one can start to see the beauty (due to its complexity).

I have found no tendency for females or males to prefer or dislike bach over the other. Infact i know more people that like bach (majority of them female) than dont like bach.

Offline kay3087

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #19 on: September 16, 2009, 02:54:38 AM
I'm a girl, and I love Bach. Most of my friends do too. :/

The "general character" of music cannot be "macho" or "feminine". It's like saying "O I like this Tchaikovsky Symphony, I can definitely hear the homosexuality in the trombones."

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #20 on: September 16, 2009, 04:35:35 AM
Gender has no effect on enjoyment of Bach imo. Sure more men might like things like death metal, that is because it encourages all that violence, doom and gloom that more men enjoy compared to women. But when it comes to "classical" music I think it is hard to say which gender prefers what since the message of classical music is so diverse, it promotes positive emotion even if negative things are expressed. I think it would be just as silly to say, all women like slow soft pretty piano music, all men like loud fast aggressive piano music.

The definition of macho is culturally based, so I think it has little effect on listening experience.
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Offline alessandro

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #21 on: September 16, 2009, 10:39:09 AM
I think Bach's more of an intellectual pleasure than macho, and most girls seem to be more on the sensitive side rather than intellectual. And by intellectual I don't mean smart, just a different approach.

I don't prefer to link sensitivity and not intellect. What I meant is, a chocolate cake is not only made of chocolate, yet we call it chocolate cake because it's the main aspect of it. Every person can be both intellectual, sensitive, and many other things at the same time, but sometimes there's one particular aspect which stands out, even if it's just a bit, more than the others.

I don't see how all of that is related to being sensitive/intellectual or not, or even with gender, I'm like that and I'm not a woman.


Dear Iroveashe, I can misunderstand you, but I thought that when you say 'girls seem to be more on the sensitive side rather than the intellectual, I did understand that you rather prefer to link sensitivity than intellect to girls (or eventually that you rather link intellect to boys and sensitivity to girls).   I have two male cats and three females.   The two act rather stupid, the females are much more nicer.   The males tend more to look for trouble and the females sometimes (it's maybe an impression that I have) avoid trouble.   When I'm in a pub, the boys are 'heavy', act blunt, and the woman often are intelligent and attentive.   Now, I absolutely don't want any argument based on values.   I'm just curious !  I must of course be something that has to do with sensitivity that makes the difference, but what ? When you say yourself 'different approach', that different approach could result in a different experience, no ?

I really don’t want to make some kind of classification.   Let’s say that - since it is not easy to give an answer to a ‘why’-question - I’m just looking for words, descriptions, metaphors that can apply to both sexes but that are, for each individual based on the fact that the person is a male or a female, suitable to describe their feelings towards the music of Bach.

I'm a girl, and I love Bach. Most of my friends do too. :/

The "general character" of music cannot be "macho" or "feminine". It's like saying "O I like this Tchaikovsky Symphony, I can definitely hear the homosexuality in the trombones."

You love Bach.  Can you describe why you love Bach or what you love in Bach?   Do your friends love Bach for mostly the same reasons ?
Do you mean that in your environment, there are as much men than women that like Bach (or maybe even more women) ?

I do think that music can be ‘macho’ or ‘feminine’.
Though I can’t directly think of an example where I hear homosexuality in trombones, I can hear sexuality, or erotism in music.   And in fact, it is not that what I’m trying to know or to hear.   I just would like to know, I’m again a little reducing the question, how woman that like or dislike Bach would describe their listening-to-Bach-experience.      

I beginning to think that my topic leads nowhere, I'm sorry about that.   I probably can't find the right words to make my thoughts understandable.   I’m just presuming that there must be differences between man and woman in the way we experience music and, for this topic, I would like to focus on the music of Bach.   I tried to use some metaphors.   For me "I'm a Barby girl" is girl-music.   Not only because the song has girls as target and not only for the lyrics.  When I see a Tarantino-movie, I could guess that is made by a man and that it is probably mainly enjoyed by men.   When I see a Jane Campion-movie, I could guess that is made by woman and mainly enjoyed by women (Sofia Copolla also makes in my point of view very feminine films).  And I can label it with adjectives why I feel that.  A "march" is male for me.   Michael Nymann is very woman.   Merchant-Ivory is very woman.  But again, this doesn't relate directly the reason why I started this topic.  
It sounds as if this is  big issue for me, it's as if I'm somewhat frustrated with this gender issues, but I think I'm just wondering.  Starting a poll has probably not much sense since I don't know the statistical balance between the number of males and females on this forum and since there are, in order to make a reasonable opinion, too much questions needed to be asked.

I fact to resume, I made a statement and asked a question in one when I started this topic.   I presume that the music of Bach is enjoyed mainly by men (could be right or could be wrong, I don't know) and secondly I was wondering, if previous statement should appeared to be true, for what possible characteristics of the music it is so. (which pieces, what adjectives, what metaphors etcetera...)

I’m so sorry.   I’ll never again start such a dreadful topic.
 Kindly.

Offline fhertzbe

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #22 on: September 17, 2009, 12:33:30 PM
I had a female piano teacher who refused to practice Bach with me because she thought it was "boring". Instead she suggested "What a Wonderful World". I quit after two lessons. On the other hand, my wife prefers Bach to anything else. My two daughters (9 & 11) prefer Mozart to Beethoven. I.e., they don't particularly like classical music but Mozart is okay. I feel that there's some gender issue perhaps at stake there (besides the age issue). Mozart speaks more to the feminine, Beethoven more to the masculine / side of (some of) us, it would seem. Hm. But Bach doesn't seem to fit into that pattern.

Offline alessandro

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 01:11:54 PM
I had a female piano teacher who refused to practice Bach with me because she thought it was "boring". Instead she suggested "What a Wonderful World". I quit after two lessons. On the other hand, my wife prefers Bach to anything else. My two daughters (9 & 11) prefer Mozart to Beethoven. I.e., they don't particularly like classical music but Mozart is okay. I feel that there's some gender issue perhaps at stake there (besides the age issue). Mozart speaks more to the feminine, Beethoven more to the masculine / side of (some of) us, it would seem. Hm. But Bach doesn't seem to fit into that pattern.

Aah I'm so happy with this answer, I really was thinking I butchered my topic in a way.  Thank you and I'm happy you seem to agree in a way that there could be a "gender issue at stake"...   So statistically one could state that in your - I'll call it without any neglect - 'microcosmos' that from the-women-point-of-view, Mozart scores higher than Beethoven.   You're answer also gives me the opportunity the rephrase the topic, to say it in other words, I think for one reason or the other that if you would ask the favourite composers to men and to women, I'm quite sure that Bach would end "a lot higher" in the men-list than in the women-list.  And it is because of this feeling that I have, that I would like to know why that difference; 'why' on the basis of the kind of enjoyment that one has when listening to the music, because I have like no clue why a woman likes Bach except the same than I have, let stand why women (plural) would like Bach...
Kindly

Offline aslanov

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #24 on: September 20, 2009, 12:07:40 AM
I had a female piano teacher who refused to practice Bach with me because she thought it was "boring". Instead she suggested "What a Wonderful World". I quit after two lessons. On the other hand, my wife prefers Bach to anything else. My two daughters (9 & 11) prefer Mozart to Beethoven. I.e., they don't particularly like classical music but Mozart is okay. I feel that there's some gender issue perhaps at stake there (besides the age issue). Mozart speaks more to the feminine, Beethoven more to the masculine / side of (some of) us, it would seem. Hm. But Bach doesn't seem to fit into that pattern.

The reason why anyone would say his work is masculine, which a majority of it is, is because most of his music is....communicating how he felt and what was going on with his life at the time of the composition.
However mozart, i wouldn't consider feminine nor masculine.  His work is joyous, dreaded, romantic and playful at times. Mozart's works fall into a gender neutral position, as does bach (or so i think).

Offline slobone

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #25 on: September 21, 2009, 08:57:53 AM
I don't think Angela Hewitt, Rosalyn Tureck, Wanda Landowska, Dame Myra Hess, Simone Dinnerstein, or many others would agree with you. In fact it's hard to think of a composer who's had more first-rate female interpreters than Bach.

Offline iroveashe

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #26 on: September 21, 2009, 01:23:11 PM
I don't think the point of this topic was to establish a fact, but to figure out a reason why in his personal experience the majority of women he knows don't like Bach.
"By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision."
Bruno Walter

Offline alessandro

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #27 on: September 22, 2009, 11:01:21 AM
I don't think the point of this topic was to establish a fact, but to figure out a reason why in his personal experience the majority of women he knows don't like Bach.

Thank you very much Iroveashe, really ! Frankly, I was becoming hopeless; "was I unable to express clearly my thoughts, I'm a becoming mad and incomprehensible"  A reason for this probable vagueness could be the fact that making words match with feelings often is a frustrating thing to do...  
In fact, the feedback I was hoping for shouldn't necessarily be linked to my personal experience, it shouldn't be an answer to "why I..." it may be more general, it could be "your" experience too.   But yes !, it has definitely to do with 'experience', the differences in experiencing Bach music, the innermost feeling to it.   Eventually, though that could take us very far, one could just start to state his gender followed by a description of what he or she feels or what comes to his or her mind while listening to Bach.   But of course, if someone already has some kind of 'theory' or thought on it - but based on feelings - I'm really interested...

 
I don't think Angela Hewitt, Rosalyn Tureck, Wanda Landowska, Dame Myra Hess, Simone Dinnerstein, or many others would agree with you. In fact it's hard to think of a composer who's had more first-rate female interpreters than Bach.


Maybe, eventually probably.  But that's not the track I was hoping for.  The fact that someone performs or records works of a particalar composer, is probably because there's (some) attraction or interest for this or that composer, one could hear 'enthusiasm' in the performance, but at the same time it doesn't say very much about the state of mind of that person towards the aural experience of listening to Bach.   I myself play some Bach too, but listening to Bach is a total other 'thing' than playing.  In fact, for me, way less intense.  And on the other hand, it reminds of this anecdote I shared in one of my previous posts, of the "awe" that Kissin feels towards Bach.   The fact that one doesn't record Bach or does not play him in public could sometimes tell more of his feeling than those who do...   So, all resumed, I'm looking for "deep personal" feelings, subjectivity...

I like this forum, isn't that amazing.
Thank you all and have a nice day.

Offline webern78

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #28 on: September 22, 2009, 03:04:33 PM
99% of the women i met in my life have no discernible taste in art or anything else for that matter. I stopped paying attention to what they have to say a long time ago.

Offline webern78

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #29 on: September 22, 2009, 03:06:15 PM
I don't think the point of this topic was to establish a fact, but to figure out a reason why in his personal experience the majority of women he knows don't like Bach.

Here's your answer:

https://mensaction.net/video/Vagina-Vocational-Centers.html

Offline slobone

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #30 on: September 28, 2009, 01:28:47 AM
Well alessandro, if your point is about the musical tastes of women of your acquaintance, I don't see what I can add that will be helpful. It hasn't been my experience.

But you can certainly add me to the list of those who would rather play Bach than listen to someone else play him (with rare exceptions). But that's more because I'd rather play Bach than almost anything else.

As for Kissin, he probably doesn't play Bach because he knows that's not what people pay to hear him do.

And webern78 you need to get out more...

Offline etude12

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #31 on: September 28, 2009, 03:57:37 AM
I will not attack this subject with feministic aggression (though some of the responses nearly provoke me to do so, given their failure to grasp the subject) but say that, in my opinion, an understanding and love of Bach is not dictated by gender but by development and social circumstances. This cannot be addressed briefly or be made specific only to Bach; it is a matter of total development.
I am 15, female and adore Bach with every fibre of my being. This has not always been so; though I have never had a specific "favourite" composer, I did abhor some composers in my younger life. Mozart was at the top of this list, his melodies making me feel patronised and frustrated at four years old. After that was Bach, admittedly; it was "square" music, as I expressed it, being too abstract an expression of musical ideals for a mere child to grasp.
In very early childhood, I could hardly listen to a Chopin Polonaise, finding it "too bombastic". Satie was my favourite composer, and almost everything else nearly physically hurt my ears. I lost this particular sensitivity when I attended school, for external influences to which I had not been previously exposed (such as other children screaming in my face) quickly desensitised me to loud sounds. At this time, I began piano lessons, and one of my immediately favoured composers was Beethoven, for his music appealed to my childish (not feminine) enjoyment of brilliant dynamics and well-structured changeable music; I did not understand that in such an analytical sense at the time, but rather like a child staring at a beautiful face, not realising that it is the fulfilment of perfect, complex mathematical equations but finding it simply beautiful and appealing. I was not yet able to enjoy Bach in that subconscious way, his music provoking in me the feeling which comparatively “bombastic” music had when I was a toddler, shocking me with the metronomic, abrupt way in which it forced itself upon my ears.
At nine, I moved into the Romantics and Neo-Romantics, Chopin and Rachmaninoff particularly, though beginning to enjoy a good Bach/Busoni transcription, though for the passion and not the form.  
After leaving school at thirteen (am currently doing distance education to satisfy BOS), I dedicated my life completely to music, reading composer letters and biographies, trying to understand the complexities of composition and generally becoming a "complete musician"; one cannot play with full command if one does not understand every aspect of the music and the context from whence it came. This revealed to me quite how wonderful Brahms was, being a close love of mine to this day (and, I think, all to come).
I began to understand the perfection of Bach at fourteen, not playing but hearing it. Ran Dank played the Prelude and Fugue in E-flat minor (bk.1, WTK) in SIPCA, and upon hearing the first, tender notes of the Prelude, I began to cry irrepressibly. At that point, I was more emotionally touched by that minor third than I was by all of the chords crammed into the cadenza of the Rach three. The performer, I admit, had beautiful tone which gave the piece more impact than it may otherwise have had, but the essential beauty of the composition was simply enhanced and not created by that. As I heard the fugue unfold, I understood that Bach was incredibly complex, expressive and tender, and not hard and detached as I had formerly found his work.
From that point, I became obsessed by fugues, and have analysed my current fugue four times in four different ways; separating voices, colouring each section according to the emotion therein, deciding which themes and/or motives on which I should focus and finally writing the ways in which each subject, counter subject and recurrent episode should be played in order to achieve a perfectly consistent, understood and mastered fugue. Each time, I find a new “layer” at which I may marvel.
I would come to the conclusion that it is external influences which determine the understanding of music, Bach in particular. External influences in most societies are possibly less conducive to a female understanding of Bach, and as such may be understood as a primarily masculine joy. I am probably the last person who may give a direct report of female appreciation of any music, let alone Bach in particular, having never associated with anyone who likes classical music, given my relatively isolated and short life. However, consider me a “control” experiment if you will; a female unshaped by popular culture and immersed solely in classical music, who has independently come to the conclusion that Bach is perfect, expressive and wonderful.
Summary; nurture, not nature (understanding -due to influence-, not gender).

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #32 on: September 28, 2009, 07:01:16 PM
I will not attack this subject with feministic aggression

Why not.

Go for it i say.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #33 on: September 29, 2009, 09:09:16 AM
I don't think Angela Hewitt, Rosalyn Tureck, Wanda Landowska, Dame Myra Hess, Simone Dinnerstein, or many others would agree with you. In fact it's hard to think of a composer who's had more first-rate female interpreters than Bach.
...indeed - and you've mentioned only keyboard players who are not organists...

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Alistair
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Offline thierry13

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #34 on: September 29, 2009, 11:18:48 AM
I don't think Angela Hewitt, Rosalyn Tureck, Wanda Landowska, Dame Myra Hess, Simone Dinnerstein, or many others would agree with you. In fact it's hard to think of a composer who's had more first-rate female interpreters than Bach.

But then these people are genius, so they are in a class apart. He was talking about normal people I think, and then it would have to be right.

Offline iroveashe

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #35 on: September 29, 2009, 02:44:19 PM
But then these people are genius, so they are in a class apart. He was talking about normal people I think, and then it would have to be right.
So instead of gender separation, perhaps an intellect separation should be made regarding who likes Bach and who doesn't?

I personally feel that regardless of gender, intelligence or environment, if someone doesn't like Bach, it's possibly because they don't know him enough.
"By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision."
Bruno Walter

Offline alessandro

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #36 on: September 30, 2009, 09:11:17 AM
First of all, Etude12, thank you for the post.   You did some digging inside yourself, you took the topic with a personal-historical angle.  
I will not attack this subject with feministic aggression...
I am 15, female and adore Bach with every fibre of my being...
Bach is perfect, expressive and wonderful.


I butchered your topic a little for the quote, but indeed, as Thalbergmad pointed out, if there's something of anger towards posts, I think the best thing is to let it out.   I hope I made myself enough clear, that I didn't start this topic to argue on the value of man and woman.   I add to the information that I've always be interested in androgynity, gender-issues, identity, women, masks etcetera...   So it is really with maybe childish, for a great deal useless, but genuine curiosity that I started this topic.   I think we can feel already that, though I don't think there's a total neglect of the topic, it's not the easiest one to contribute to.   Again (and I promise I won't say it ever again in this topic), I really was hoping for description of deep, thought-over feelings.
You are fifteen, well, darn you write so well, you are so clever and mature.   I always thought that there are children that are born 'adult', and it are often the same children that become old and keep a throughout their whole lives a pleasant, childish twinkle in the eye, the same people that have no "rusty" ideas", and that keep throughout their lives an energizing curiosity.
Now, back on topic, it is clear that music of Bach is also for you something very special.  For me, Bach certainly is not perfect, a few of his works can sound perfect.   You "adore with every fibre".  Wonderful !  So there's something perhaps neurological to the enjoyment, in the attraction, definitely something physical, glad you are on the same track here.    I think that "adore with every fibre" is an image, but if it is indeed something physical could you describe in one other way your emotion ?
So instead of gender separation, perhaps an intellect separation should be made regarding who likes Bach and who doesn't?

I personally feel that regardless of gender, intelligence or environment, if someone doesn't like Bach, it's possibly because they don't know him enough.


If "...they don't know him enough" would mean that one is not familiar enough with his music, that familiarity is indeed some aspect that is useful in order to be able to enjoy this or that type of music, I do agree partially.  I think it is some kind of general truth, like the particular phenomenon of for instance the relation of children to vegetables (cumcumber is fine, but cabbage and mushroom is another thing), one could appreciate, but not always necessarily, after trying it several times.     On the other hand, "knowing" something, or having listened to music "multiple times" is of course not a guarantee for future appreciation.  In fact, with Bach, though I admit the complexity of some works that could be for some people also a part of the enjoyment (not for me), I would say that Bach has a rather gripping effect on me, I'm rather catched and moved quickly.     The sympathy that I have for Bach's music, has been "serious business" for a long time, I mean since young age, let's say that I remember impressions that I have since I was six or seven years old.  I hated the technical aspect of playing it at a young age (and even now it is for me sometimes really challenging; the fingering, etcetera...), but the joy of hearing his music has always existed in one way or another.   Of course the pleasure is more intense, but that is I think more due to my life, to me as a changing person with a history, than to the fact that I should 'know' him.

But then these people are genius, so they are in a class apart. He was talking about normal people I think, and then it would have to be right.

I'm glad that when I feel a little recognition !  (though I'm still hoping for some subjective feedback on the eventual answer to the question "why ?":-))    

Already thank you very much everybody.   Really, please don't mind the "bluntness" of the topic; but I really do think there could come some intense conversation out of it.

Very kind greetings to you all.

Offline rc

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #37 on: September 30, 2009, 03:42:35 PM
For what it's worth, there's been a time or two where I was reading through a collection of short stories without knowing who the author is, and was struck halfway through the story thinking "this must have been written by a woman", and it was.

Of course there's a wide spectrum, there are men with feminine tendancies and women with masculine traits...  But there are some who subjectify the differences to the point of meaninglessness. 

I can think of examples of people I've hung out with recently.  Had a brew with a couple of rugby players the other day, hard drinkin' hard fartin' manly men.  They spend their free time in direct violent competition tackling each other.  They walk in and dominate the room, loads of humour.  I get the impression they tend to get into crazy situations, a fight could break out at any minute.

A few nights earlier I wound up singing kareoke with a table of cosmetics women (hairdress, doing nails or somesuch thing) - girly girls.  A pretty bunch, not strictly in a physical sense but more like a general attitude, if that makes sense.  The conversation was more along the lines of clothing and people.  They talked about personal relations on a level that baffles me.  A momentary glace can be the source of much drama.  I think being in groups tends to bring out this sort of polarization, as opposed to being one-on-one where we get a more balanced picture of somebody.

In any case, I think there's credence to the idea that men and women would tend to write different music.  I've noticed it in literature anyhow.

Offline webern78

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #38 on: September 30, 2009, 07:07:25 PM
And webern78 you need to get out more...

And you need to get a clue. If you actually took a good look around you'll notice that women are in no different position in regards to creativity and their contribution to the intellectual advancement of our culture then they were fifty years ago, or a hundred years ago. This despite the fact they are no longer "oppressed" by the evil patriarchy (TM), and are in many ways more advantaged then men are today. The reason of course is that it is not within the nature of women to excel in creative fields. Everything you've been told to the contrary has been nothing but pure fabrication.

Offline webern78

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #39 on: September 30, 2009, 07:09:36 PM
I don't think Angela Hewitt, Rosalyn Tureck, Wanda Landowska, Dame Myra Hess, Simone Dinnerstein, or many others would agree with you. In fact it's hard to think of a composer who's had more first-rate female interpreters than Bach.

I'm not sure how "first rate" some of those performers really are, particularly Hewitt or (god forbid) Dinnerstein, who's interpretation of Bach is actually an abomination.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #40 on: September 30, 2009, 07:17:37 PM
I'm not sure how "first rate" some of those performers really are

And i am not sure if they are all women.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline weissenberg2

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #41 on: September 30, 2009, 07:55:45 PM
Too Webern78,

There may be a tendency for this, but that is still generalizing. I know there are many more great male musicians than female, but that does not mean there opinions are less valid. There is a tendency to what you said but it is not completely true. I don't like many of the female Bach players named, actually the only one I like is Landowska.
"A true friend is one who likes you despite your achievements." - Arnold Bennett

Offline lmiller2501

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #42 on: October 20, 2009, 03:02:11 AM
However, as far as Bach might say,  "If it ain't baroque don't fix it"...  Perhaps literature of that time will help to identify with the music... Like Nietzche and his Wagner...

Offline kevinr

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #43 on: October 22, 2009, 09:51:10 AM
If you play Chopin to a woman, she will demand you make love to her.

Play Bach and she will do the ironing. Bach is too intellectual to stimulate the female senses.

Thal

I'm sure that news will encourage us male pianists to practise both Chopin and Bach (then play them to her in that order?)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #44 on: October 22, 2009, 11:09:45 AM
I'm sure that news will encourage us male pianists to practise both Chopin and Bach (then play them to her in that order?)

Wise words Sir.

It has to be in that order.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline mrnicktjones

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #45 on: October 22, 2009, 06:43:12 PM
You talk as if a woman is merely a tool. Which i might add is not very chivlerous attitude.  :'(

I am male, and I hate playing bach. Hes music is plain and boring.  :-X

Chopin, however,  is my favorite to play. His Etudes, Mazurkas, impromtus, etc. are a deilight to hear as well as to play.  ;D

Gender doesn’t have to be involved with ‘generalizing’. Ideas built upon gender will go crashing down.  :-\

HOWEVER, what Thal did state I had to laugh at, it was kind of funny in a way.
(Learn Etude Opus 25 No 11 by Chopin) This piece is amazingly fun.  :-*

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #46 on: October 22, 2009, 08:29:54 PM
If there is anything macho in the piano world, it surely must be the Romantic Concerto.

Unless i am much mistaken, Hyperion's huge series is so far female free. Better not let the Labour Party know, or some jobsworth moron will start to investiage and insist on more women pianists.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline retrouvailles

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #47 on: October 22, 2009, 08:40:30 PM
I would have to agree with Thal. In Romantic music, women haven't really contributed much in the concerto genre. Amy Beach and Clara Schumann's attempts at the genre are pretty pitiful compared to their male contemporaries' efforts, even if you forget about about the well-known ones. It's only in the 20th century that you start to get female composers who are truly great composers of concertos.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #48 on: October 22, 2009, 08:50:31 PM
I was actually referring to female "performers" of romantic concerti, but i did not make that clear.

However, i agree with what you say and feel it adds weight to my point.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline weissenberg2

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Re: Bach = Macho ?
Reply #49 on: October 22, 2009, 10:52:30 PM
It's only in the 20th century that you start to get female composers who are truly great composers of concertos.

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