Want to expand technique (but still play interesting pieces)

[onionduck]

Hi all, I'm mostly self-taught. Over the last year I've learned and played:

Liszt's
Le Jeau D'eaux de La Villa Este
Sposalizio
Benediction de Dieu Dans la Solitude (half-way, the second half didn't seem to present anything new or interesting melodically)
Totentanz for Solo Piano

Ravel's
Toccata and Menuet from Le Tombeau De Couperin
Started to play Ondine but I stopped because I was also starting to lift weights again and my forearms (on pinky side) would get too tense for the beginning segment at speed.

*I've attached my play of the toccata (from around 2-3 days after learning the notes to the last segment; sorry about the mistakes and quality but I almost never record so that's my only recording and I use a logitech stick mic) to prove that I'm not bullshitting anyone about what I've played.


Just wondering if anyone had any ideas for new pieces that are both challenging/engaging (but not impossible) technically but also have nice musical segments that make them a joy to play (almost didn't learn the menuet to completion due to lack of technical challenge and I started Orage to try to play a set from Annees de pelerinage but I couldn't stomach the umm thunder in the left hand). The pieces that I was thinking of were:

Liszt's
Mazeppa
Ballade No. 2
Legendes No. 2
Dante Fantasy

Kapustin
Concert Etude no. 3
Concert Etude no. 6

Ravel
Sonatine

Any other suggestions (from both these and other composers)?

Oh just a note about composers:
I used to play a lot of Rachmaninoff but I don't really have a taste for him now. I could give him a try again but I remember just playing his pieces showily without a sense of sincerity and I've no taste for that (even the memories) these days even if the problem was me and not the pieces.

It's also usually hard for me to relate to Chopin sadly.

Well, thanks in advance for any suggestions!

[imbetter]

Well, if you're looking to build your technique I would advise 1: getting a teacher, and 2: doing it not just through pieces. I would advise doing Dohnyanni finger strengthening exercises (I know a lot of people are sort of negative about finger exercises but these really do help tremendously) and maybe certain etudes to improve various parts of your technique (e.g. Chopin op.25 no.6). But if you are just looking for pieces that are technically challenging, then you might want to look at the following:

Brahms-Paganini Variations
Alkan-La Festin D'esope op.39 no.12, Symphony for Solo Piano
A lot of Liszt even though he's not my favorite composer
Balakirev-Islamey
Rachmaninoff-Etudes Tableau
Scriabin-Etudes

These are just a few suggestions but maybe you should also look at music just for musical aspects?

[gyzzzmo]

Chopin etudes are lots of fun, also at low speed.

[onionduck]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll take a look at the finger strengthening exercises, the pieces that imbetter suggested (though I've looked at the symphony for solo piano and I think it's too big atm) and chopin etudes (I've already played 10/3 and 25/12 in the past).

I've tried to play music with low technical demand just for music's sake (traumerei, standchen, ave maria, the theme from amelie that I hear all the time from random piano hobbyists, etc.) but my hands and arms get bored and it's hard to maintain my focus and energy; but, I get the same problem with pieces that are all technique and low on musicality that I can relate to (feux follets most recently) so I'm just looking around for pieces that are a good mix of both.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Being in a similar situation to you (I'm largely self-taught), the most important advice is to find a good teacher. This will be far more beneficial to you than hours of practicing on your terms where you may well be improving your technique but in reality you are very likely to be ingraining bad habits. I see a professional teacher periodically and he's still working at getting me to deal with the bad habits I built up over years of unfocussed practice, though my playing is much more disciplined than it used to be.

As for pieces, when I was consciously building my technique I worked my way through (and had a lot of fun with) a large number of the Liszt Transcendentals, Hungarian Rhapsodies and operatic transcriptions. I would recommend leaving Alkan until later; I spent a fair amount of time on him and in retrospect I'm not convinced I was ready for it.

[communist]

Most students the best composer to improve technique with is Johann Sebastian Bach. If you are not familiar with playing him start with some inventions and sinfonias, was you think you are used to playing him try the Well Tempered Clavier and after some preludes and fugues from the WTC try his suites.

I think Prokofiev sonata no.3 would be a good piece for you.

Maybe something by Mosolov, Feinberg or Schnittke would be good.

[antichrist]

alkan definitely , its quick - fun ,also rach prelude op.23 no.5 but mazeppa will do well

[lostinidlewonder]

You know that Ravel recording of yours is pretty good if you spent 2-3 days on it (or did you spend longer and this was 2-3 days after?) There is at least another month work required on the piece to polish it up. Not many people could learn it and play through it in a couple of days. If this is a product of months work you need a teacher to guide or at least focus on polishing your performance.

Some random suggestions: Liszt Mephisto Waltzes, Godowsky Java Suite, Debussy Preludes

[onionduck]

Wow thanks for the all the suggestions guys!

About getting a teacher I've had some not-so-good experiences with teachers (berating for not playing enough, didn't teach me what I wanted to play, actually back when I was a kid my teacher complained so much that my parents grounded me and didn't let me watch television or play games so I just completely quit piano at the time, etc.) so I really hesitate to go down that path but I guess it's probably necessary if I really want to polish up. I'll look into finding a teacher though I'm not sure how to go about it at this point (about to graduate from college).

In the meantime I'll look into the pieces rondes, communist, antichrist (though I've played Rach 23/5 back when I was really into weightlifting and playing the piece just wasn't good for me after a while) and lostinidlewonder suggested as well. Thanks!

The Ravel recording was from 2-3 days after I learned the segment that starts with the sequence: RH gmajor chord->D below it-> LH D octave down-> c# an octave below that, up to the end. Up to that point I'd probably spent 3-4 weeks on it at around half an hour to an a hour a day of practice (but that time was split between the toccata, menuet, prelude which I lost interest in, and beginning Ondine). I stopped playing the toccata a few weeks after that though and started learning Totentanz for Solo Piano (kinda sad I've forgotten almost a third or more of the toccata already and I've completely forgotten the menuet).

[imbetter]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll take a look at the finger strengthening exercises, the pieces that imbetter suggested (though I've looked at the symphony for solo piano and I think it's too big atm) and chopin etudes (I've already played 10/3 and 25/12 in the past).

I've tried to play music with low technical demand just for music's sake (traumerei, standchen, ave maria, the theme from amelie that I hear all the time from random piano hobbyists, etc.) but my hands and arms get bored and it's hard to maintain my focus and energy; but, I get the same problem with pieces that are all technique and low on musicality that I can relate to (feux follets most recently) so I'm just looking around for pieces that are a good mix of both.

The Symphony is manageable, especially if you can play a lot of those other pieces.

[onionduck]

The Symphony is manageable, especially if you can play a lot of those other pieces.

Oh you're right, I'd mistaken the symphony for the concerto (three movements, first movement 72 pages  ). Thanks!

[onionduck]

Ok I think i'm going to try to restart ondine, start mazeppa, work through some of the simpler bach on the side and play around with some pieces in the Java Suite.

Oh one question about ondine, I can play the initial RH part at shimmering tempo, but I get a little tight after a while in my interosseous muscles and my forearm on pinky side down near my elbow. I've noticed that it's a lot easier to play comfortably if I just move the whole thing an octave down, any idea as to what I'm doing wrong? Feel like it's probably some shoulder thing or holding my elbow out too wide.

EDIT: Oh I've figured it out, my right shoulder was a little high so my elbow wasn't low enough.

[gyzzzmo]

I dont know what you mean with 'hard to relate to Chopin', but the chopin etudes are great to improve technique on advanced level. Maybe you should put 'some' time into those

[onionduck]

I dont know what you mean with 'hard to relate to Chopin', but the chopin etudes are great to improve technique on advanced level. Maybe you should put 'some' time into those

Oh I just meant that I'd played the first ballade, andante spiniato and a couple etudes and I think I played too.. dramatically? I don't know I got tired of emotional excess or rather my body couldn't handle it anymore, i started feeling really weird and sluggish. Maybe I'll give them another look at a later time when I've figured myself out more.

[pianisten1989]

You'ev only played pieces with loads of notes, you wont develop anythig by keep playing the same kind of pieces.
I'd really advice you to play Czerny, Clementi and Bach, but I guess you'd concider that as uninteresting music.
And if you don't want to play that, you should play Schumann.

[onionduck]

You'ev only played pieces with loads of notes, you wont develop anythig by keep playing the same kind of pieces.
I'd really advice you to play Czerny, Clementi and Bach, but I guess you'd concider that as uninteresting music.
And if you don't want to play that, you should play Schumann.

That's interesting advice, I've actually been told the same thing (give pieces with less notes a try, along with some anecdotes about how some famous pianists would play very simple pieces as encores) but I didn't really understand it. I'd probably be willing to be more persistent with pieces with less notes if I could understand the rationale (and if I liked the piece).

As far as I can tell, the rationale is that pieces with less notes are better for developing touch and making the most of every key press but I've always wondered why you can't just try to apply the same mindset for pieces with lots of notes.

[gyzzzmo]

Oh I just meant that I'd played the first ballade, andante spiniato and a couple etudes and I think I played too.. dramatically? I don't know I got tired of emotional excess or rather my body couldn't handle it anymore, i started feeling really weird and sluggish. Maybe I'll give them another look at a later time when I've figured myself out more.

There's a load of variation in emotion in the chopin etudes. Some are 'sad', 'angry', 'funny' or just 'crazy'. The difficulty of the Chopin etudes is to get those emotions to the front, and its part of gaining technique.
For example opus 10/1. Its a pretty easy piece itself, just a bunch of 'rolling' chords. But its hard making the crescendo's and dims every ascending/descending chord. Makes your fingers and arms tired, but thats a great way of gaining strength in your 4th and 5th finger. So the emotion is part of gaining the technique.

Opus 10/2 is a very funny piece. You can get this emotion only if you can get the 16s very legato, smooth and on the background and the chords to the front. Playing the notes itself is (again) not that hard, so the emotion is part of......


Gyzzzmo

[dan101]

Like most, I'm a fan of Chopin studies and preludes. The latter also provides valuable technical lessons. The right hand dexterity gained from Chopin's Bb minor prelude, and the lateral freedom of wrist required in his D minor prelude (the left hand) are two examples.

[weissenberg2]

How about some Scarlatti? you seem to play a lot of virtuosic stuff so how about something more lyrical?

may I recommend the sonata K.87?

[slobone]

Bach can be quite demanding technically, although not so much because he has a high rate of npm (notes per minute). Bringing out all the voices in a 4 or 5 part fugue is a real challenge, and if you learn to do that it will help you with everything else. Work your way through WTC I & II -- historically they were part of the training of every great pianist.

[gyzzzmo]

Bach can be quite demanding technically, although not so much because he has a high rate of npm (notes per minute). Bringing out all the voices in a 4 or 5 part fugue is a real challenge, and if you learn to do that it will help you with everything else. Work your way through WTC I & II -- historically they were part of the training of every great pianist.

Measuring difficulty in 'notes per minute'......... (Gyzzzmo cries in dispair!)

[slobone]

Measuring difficulty in 'notes per minute'......... (Gyzzzmo cries in dispair!)

Hmm, well I hope I was saying that you can't necessarily measure difficulty in notes per minute. But surely that's one of the factors?