A Begginer,

[Nick_K]

Hello,

My name is Nick and I am a recent begginer on the piano. I have actually only been playing for 6 months (14 years old). I started out by myself, learning Fur Elise (the "real" version) by myself. Long and gruling, but i loved it. My parents saw some kind of talent and we got a teacher, i really like her, and she automaticly skipped me to grade 7-8 piano, wich for me is scary, right now im studying Bach Invention #13, Chopin Minute Waltz, and Chopin's Nocturne Op.9 No.2 and I had a question,

Is it "healthy" for me to do this? Just starting out and already moving on to complicated pieces, my teacher thinks its okay (she obviously see's something in me) but i have some doubts.

Thats it, i jsut wanted to know what your recommendations are, thank you. If you dont believe that i should study these pieces so early, what would you recommend for me?

Thanks A lot!

Nick

btw. Dis is my first post

[alvaro_galvez]

Hello, this is also my first post.

Well, I know what that is like, Ive been playing for nearly 9 years, im 17, but never really had any interest in the piano (mainly due to lousy teachers) until 3 years ago. I got to play some madly hard pieces (dont remember names) but never really read them nor had any technical training (scales, chords, arpeggios, proper fingering, reading, etc.) and as a result Im starting from the basics with a pretty high actual playing ability.
I really do not recommend this man, it did not work well with me and I doubt it will give you a very solid pianistic base, build up ability from proper procedure, not solely on talent.

[Nick_K]

Oh, I was not clear enough.

My teacher still asks that I do scales, and many etudes, because she wants me to build a base, because she say's that in the future I wont be able to play more complicated pieces because my technique isnt developed, so I am doing scales, and proper fingering ofcourse (i figure that on my own) and I do a lot of sight reading for the bass clef because it is way behind my treble cleff, this is because I have played the trumpet in school for 3 years now, so I can read the treble cleff well.

Now that you know that I am building my "base".  Im still wondering if its safe, im scared it will become hard, and tedious work because of the amount of work I have skipped. This could cause me to want to stop and will ruin my progression. So this is really bothering me, before I go to far with sticking my nose into advanced pieces I wanna know if its okay?

Nick

[Antnee]

Nick

It's good to see you are being cautious and not rushing into too difficult pieces...
I don't know how your teacher assigned you to grade seven or eight by just being able to play the full fur elise, but whatever...

I was in the same boat as you except I had been able to play many more pieces before my first teacher. She said that my technique had very few bad habits (I consider myself very lucky) but I had to start from the beginning...Sort of... All of my theory and sight reading stuff all started in easy little books, However my teacher didn't want to hold me back technically so she asked me to pick some pieces I would like to learn and then she more or less approved of them before I could play them. She let me challenge myself while at the same time going back over what I have missed. I am benifitting extremely well from her methods and I really hope your teacher does a similar approach. Those pieces you are learning aren't too bad at all... I'd say you are headed down a good path by not starting way too difficult. Good luck...

-Tony-

[Nick_K]

Wow thank you.

Those are actually all pieces I chose myself to study.
I also wanted to study Chopin's first ballade op.23 i think, but my teacher said not to yet. And fur elise was not the only thing i knew how to play at the time, also.. I self taught myself Nocturne C#minor (not the middle part) from the movie The Pianist,  pieces of Turkish March (Mozart), and Prelude Op.28 No.4, also Chopin.

Im glad to know im not the only one who was/is in these kind of situations, thanks for your outlook Tony.

Nick

[Daniel_piano]

Well, that's quite strange as Chopin Nocturnes op9 n2 is a grade 6 piece but Bach Invention n13 is a grade 3 piece

I'm talking form a student point of view as I'm not a teacher
Anyway, while it's okay to learn quickly and move fast from piece to piece and also to start from an higher degree than beginner if one is ready and has already a good tecnique I wouldn't anyway skip many important pieces and passage in the piano program
Bach preludes and inventions are somewhat necessary to cope with WTC and French Suites and Sonatinas are a good way to prepare your brain to the sonata form as well as easier sonatas by Mozart, Haydn, Clementi and Beethoven necessary to be ready for harder sonatas
So, if you teacher started you on grade 6 there too many things imho that you have skipped but that you need: children's corner, harpsichord repertoire, inventions, preludes, chorales, gradus ad parnassum, schubert impromptu, lizst studies, sonatinas

I'm not saying you should start from a lower grade but your teacher imho should not skip the study of these pieces whatever grade you're

Also what about solfege and harmony
When one is in grade 6 (at least here) he/she supposed to have done 3 years of solfege, rythm theory, dictation, sigh-singing and two years of harmony
Expecially the solfege part is really important when you have to deal with harder pieces and complex rythm
What about sight-reading
At grade 6 one is supposed to have a good sight-reading skill has it's not any longer possible to only memorize the piece nor to always watch the keyboard
And what about chords, arpeggios and scales ?

Good for you if you're ready for a grade 6 but ask your teacher is you won't miss something later by skipping all the fundamentals about rythm, reading, tecnique, theory, knwoledge about piano forms and pattern

ihmo of course
Good Luck

Daniel

[alvaro_galvez]

Oh! Ok, then in that case I dont think it will have such and impact just as long as you recognize what ur playing (signatures, scales, etc.) and you dont go over your head (just as a guide, at least for me a piece is over my head if I dont yet know the proper scale (chords, arpegios, proper fingering, in case of minors normal, melodic, and harmonic "modes", etc.).
But hey, its just me, and it goes to prove how amateur i still am (6 more scales to finish the 24 major and minors).
Just dont skip that many basics which were mentioned above.

[Shagdac]

Alvaro wrote:

I got to play some madly hard pieces (dont remember names) but never really read them nor had any technical training

Had to smile when I read this Alvaro, (guess I'm jealous)! It's just when I am trying to learn "madly hard pieces"...by the time I get done REALLY reading, studying, listening and researching them, not only do I have the names engraved in my mind like stone forever, but I could probably tell you everything about them except the composers shoe size!  

Wish it came that easy for me!
S

[Nick_K]

Thanks for all your opinions and recommendations guys!

And Im sure that Bach's Invention #13 is WAY higher than gr.3  

Anyway, thanks again!

Nick

[alvaro_galvez]

hehehe, oh

I wasnt paying that much attention to piano back then, so I only played them to justify the money my mom was spending on classes.
Didnt focus on the particualar background of the piece, nor even reading it in that matter.
Guess I have a hell of a good ear since thats mainly how I learned them 4 years ago

[Spatula]

Thanks for all your opinions and recommendations guys!

And Im sure that Bach's Invention #13 is WAY higher than gr.3  

Anyway, thanks again!
Nick

Is that one in the major key with 32nds, but at a slower tempo?  It's about a gr 7 I think...

[pseudopianist]

Is that one in the major key with 32nds, but at a slower tempo?  It's about a gr 7 I think...

Not sure about that but both invention 13 and nocturne no2 are grade 7.

[Daniel_piano]

Not sure about that but both invention 13 and nocturne no2 are grade 7.

It's just a mess with all this different syllabus to understand somethng about grades
Yes, according to ABRSM syllabus two-part inventions are grade 6-7 but then your grade 7 is the same as my grade 4 (we have 10 grade)
In fact Mozart sonata K283 is a ABRSM 7 grade piece but at my school is teached at grade 3-4 whereas a grade 7 would require me to play piece like Brahms prelude, gradus as parnassum vol 3, Scarlatti sonatas and WTC vol 2
I wish syllabus were less complex expecially in their difference between different countries

Yet I don't understand one thing
Does it really take to you 7 years to learn bach
two-parts inventions ?
This is not a rethoric question but if one need 7 years for invention how much years there one needs to get a diploma ?
Here it's 10 years to get a diploma and invention are teached after three years .... does that mean that according to your syllabus you need 23 years to get a piano diploma or you rush through the more virtuoso pieces later ?

Completely confused about the whole grade issue

Daniel
I'm not being sarcastic, just curious about different teaching method and different countries syllabus

[Nick_K]

Daniel,

In Canada, were i live. What grade you are in, doesnt apply to how long you have been playing. So grade 7 Two-Part Inventions doesnt mean you have had to been playing for the previous 6 years. So, you said 7 years to learn inventions, thats not correct, you dont have to spend 1 year in each grade. You move up when you have completed your repitoir and all the requirements.

[capei]

I think the best age for a child to start playing piano is about five years old. First, they need to know the letter names of the notes. Then once they get the hang of it,
Teach them a short simple piece such as Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, or a simplified Yankee Doodle.


This Pianoforum is great. Just to let you know, there is another kind of pianoforum at https://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/forum/1.html

P.S.
  I'm not an expert on this so think I'm so sure.
Sincerely,
        Capei

[Nick_K]

I dont strongly agree with the 5 year old thing because a child may become sick of it, and is more likely to quit because they will start to hate it. I think it is best to let a child play piano when they come to it themselves. If they dont start on their own,and only becuase their parents introduced it to them, then probably they wont end up liking it in the future.

Thats just my opinion

Nick

[Daniel_piano]

Since no one own the child (it's a free human being) and no one should be entitled to decide for him/her a child should start the piano at 5 year old only if he ask for piano or music lesson
Parents who want their children to play an instrument and oblige their children to follow lessons are just abusers
Many children starting young because of their parents wishes end up hating piano or discontinuing any lesson after three or four years or less
We have younh beginner at our school and many of them used to follow piano lessons because their parents want to
Those boys and girls have tecnique and good fingers but no music sensitivity, no sense of interpretation, no ear, no patience .. and they probably will give up within  few years
On the contrary the best piano students I've met so far are those who started at 9 or 10 years old because they begged their parents to find a teacher because they loved the piano
They not only are fast learning, but have a strong musical and rythm sense, a big love for music and wondeful ear

I don't even agree on the fact that parents should decide what (diet, lifestyle, religion, wear style, friends) the child should follow, in fact they should always consult and aks for the child opinion about anything including moving in another city or eating certain foods
No one should be obliged to study piano, no parent should ask their childred to follow piano lessons if they are not sure, no one should make one's children follow piano lessons without asking the child is he/she likes music, piano, practicing at an instrument
The best pianist are those that choose to follow piano lesson by themselves when child or kid
Even if I eventually would have loved the piano I would have never forgive my parents if the had obliged me to follow piano lessons
I asked for piano lesson at the age of 8 spontaneusly I don't remember exactly I discovered the piano but probably when children-pianist are reasy to learn the piano there's an instinctive call for it rooted in their soul or DNA

Daniel

[Nick_K]

Wow, well, how is that any different from what i said  

lol

Anyway, i completly agree with you, and i asked for a teacher at 14, is that too late?

[thierry13]

No, really not! I'm 14(will be 15 the end of this summer), and i asked a teacher since 2-3 months(i began playing since 1 year). At the end of the other year i will have a very good repertoire, some are a little bit over-played but they're ok ! And my teacher is preparing me to a career, making me make things to enter university later!It's sure that i make much bigger pieces that you are studying now, but if you are really motivated, you can do GREAT things i'm sure. And i've finished the nocturne C# of chopin recently, and i say you finish it and put your interpretation. This can be a very touching piece! And when you will have finished the ones you're working on now,go on more demanding piece , but not too much. I mean by that : maybe the chopin etude you find the easiest, beethoven sonata pathetique(only second movement), bach's second prelude (book 1), this will not be a very good repertory piece, but a very good technique gainer! It's sure that the things i suggested are demanding, but if you want to learn fast, put the energy on it and you will be able to do great things ! (and don't forget the scales, including the chromatic one  )

[Daniel_piano]

Wow, well, how is that any different from what i said  

lol

Anyway, i completly agree with you, and i asked for a teacher at 14, is that too late?

No 14 is not too late
Too late is 16 (at least here)
That means that if you are 16 years old you can't be admitted at the beginner class but need to be examinated (you should prepare an examination repertoire with you teacher) and be admitted at a late begginer-early intermediate class
The point is that children learn faster because they're spontaneous, non-brainwashed, non-conformist human beings ... their bain work trough the alpha stage
That's the brain stage when we learn a lot, we're curious, intelligent, spontanous and don't want to conform to other people and are proud af being what we're are and unique as we are
This stage is usually substituted by the betha stage when we become teen and then adult
The reason is not our brain or phisiological the reason is that we're brainwashed by capitalistic society in being conformistic human beings that act in the same manner and are free from all the fantasy, immagination and sense of awe that they had when they were younger
Even an adult can come back to the alpha state of mind but this require a non-conformist approach to life, and the power to fight against those who want to brainwash his/her and would like to tell him/her how life shouls be lived

That being said how an adult can learn fast as a child is
a matter of how this adult is still a genuine human being instead of a capitalistic society puppet

So that's the reason why many teachers believe that a certain arbitrary age could be a intrance for the piano learning, because they don't know that many teens and adults are able to fight against their brainwashing
In few words, they don't know that amongst a lot of asleep zombies there are people who has awaken

People that are tired of starring in the boring movie of the life that society first stole them and then give gradually to them so that they can believe that this society is giving them something special and that they can also thank for this instead of relizing that those rights were innately of their property
People who want to live their lives instead of starring in it

Anyway, come back to the in topic thread
15 yeard old is considered the age limit when one can start the piano as a complete beginner and still become a concert pianist or a piano teacher
Since at 15 many boys and girls have had already the chance to see and hear a piano they usually know first if they want to play piano or make music ther career
In fact when kids ask piano lessons spontaneously they're usually 9-11 years old
At 16 one is not believe to start piano as a complete beginner but there's no problem is one has already played the piano or studies the piano (also not seriously)

Of course that is what instruction system says but it doesn't mean it's true
Maybe someone can start as a beginner at 50 and become a concert pianist at 65
There are people who were not able to read and write (because of lack of education) at 60 and when they were 80 they had already get two Ph.D and published three books on quantum phisic
What these people (from Russia) had of special was the same state of mind of children, the alpha state, when you're free and really yourself and have no cultural and society limitation, fear, appression and conformistic capitalistic ideas
Meditation can help in this sense
I had my first mediation course when I was 10 years old and it was fantastic

Anyway, no ... 14 is not late
Forcing a child on the other hand to have piano lessons is a crime as he will probably counsciously hate music (without realizing it)

Daniel

[capei]

Actually, I think you should start young to learn piano. If you start learning older, you won't get it easily.
-Capei

[Shagdac]

I agree completely with Daniel, that 14 or 15 is NOT too old. I also agree that it is easier as a child (generally speaking) to pick things up. I know this is particularily true with languages. I know many adults that learned several as a child very easily, but trying to learn a foreign language as an adult usually comes with more difficulty.

So while learning as a child may come more quickly, easily, I in no way think that autimatically makes one a BETTER player.....simply because they started younger. There are many factors to be taken into account, when determining what qualities outline a good pianist, and although the skills may be "learned" more easily at an early age, it doesn't always mean they are more easily applied. Inhibitions and preconceptions would definately play a part in the learning process, but ultimately, while a younger student may "catch on" more rapidly, I don't think it by any means makes them a "better" pianist.
Just my opinion.

S     ....The only thing about starting younger, is that
              you have more days left to practice!

[bernhard]

Actually, I think you should start young to learn piano. If you start learning older, you won't get it easily.
-Capei

Now that is helpful. Any idea where Nick_K can get hold of a time machine? (Other people will be interested too).

[Shagdac]

I've already looked Bernard! There's none to be found



S

[bernhard]

I agree completely with Daniel, that 14 or 15 is NOT too old. I also agree that it is easier as a child (generally speaking) to pick things up. I know this is particularily true with languages. I know many adults that learned several as a child very easily, but trying to learn a foreign language as an adult usually comes with more difficulty.

So while learning as a child may come more quickly, easily, I in no way think that autimatically makes one a BETTER player.....simply because they started younger. There are many factors to be taken into account, when determining what qualities outline a good pianist, and although the skills may be "learned" more easily at an early age, it doesn't always mean they are more easily applied. Inhibitions and preconceptions would definately play a part in the learning process, but ultimately, while a younger student may "catch on" more rapidly, I don't think it by any means makes them a "better" pianist.
Just my opinion.

S     ....The only thing about starting younger, is that
              you have more days left to practice!

I disagree with that.

Adults learn far more quickly than children. (I teach both).

The only thing that children learn better than adults in relation to language is accent. Nothing else. And the reason for that is simply because adults have a purpose in learning a language: to communicate. Once they can communicate they are happy. And communication does not need a perfect accent anyway. Now children do not know that, so they learn by imitation and develop perfect accents. A child will take typically six to seven years to learn a language, living amongst natives. It took me three to four months to learn my perfect English  (living amongst natives) as an adult.

I usually have adult students playing grade 7-8 pieces between 6 months - 1 year. Children will take 2 - 3 years and their rendition of the music cannot possibly compare.

All psychological work I saw in this area was totally flawed (psychologists hate mathematics, hence they cannot cope with statisitcs. Their experiments are badly planned their results not trustworthy).

The only important consideration in learning anything is not age/race/nationality (you name it). It is simply the wish to learn it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I've already looked Bernard! There's none to be found



S

[squiggly_girl]

Yay! Hope reigns!