How to deal with lazy and unattentive students?

[dora96]

Hi all,

I really struggle at the moment. I have a student that she is 8 years old. She has been learning the piano from me for 6 months from the beginning to now. she has quite long and skinny fingers, but she will not curve her fingers, weak and wobbly fingering when she is playing the piano. I have mentioned to her no end of it. Curve the fingers nice and firm. She just won't listen. I also talk about this issue to her mum, but her mum thinks that if that she is comfortable to play the piano. " Just let it be".

I worry about her posture and technique. I want to build her up with good technique and right posture and right attitude to music. I have printed pictures about how pianist sit and curve fingers, arm and shoulder alignment. She just takes no notice of it. She can play the music quite well and get most the notes right each lesson, but whole lazy posture, and fiddling about something when I am talking important things to her. I don't want to be mean to her. It is getting really annoying. Do you guys have any suggestion to deal with this?

[m19834]

Play lots of duets with her where you are sitting right next to her (and sometimes from another piano side-by-side, if possible, so she has a different perspective as well), embody everything you would like for her to be doing and mindfully 'will' it to her through every breath and note.  Also, play her solo pieces with her and for her (from a second piano side-by-side) using the same strategy.  

The main idea is to play with her (and for her) ... a lot.

Also, watch videos (YouTube) and send videos to her of children around her age playing with great posture and such.  Subliminally immerse her in it.

[go12_3]

From my experience, a lot of 8 years are not ready to comprehend the curving fingers and
posture.  I remind them as I lightly touch their fingers while they strike the keys.  I don't know what it is about the 7 to 8 year olds.  I want them to enjoy playing the piano.  And by the time they are 9 years old, they get the idea.  It's like their brain goes unto to another level of understanding and abilities.  So let the 8 year old play and enjoy the music, then the servious stuff can come a long.

Also, play with your student on the piano.  Like in Twinkle Little Star, you play the higher notes and she plays the lower notes.  She will watch you play too.

Have your student make a fist whenever the fingers get flat ; do this of few times during the lesson. Hopefully, in a few weeks your student will be able to have her fingers arched.    Make a fist and let go slowly, this allows the student's attention be only upon the fingers and then slowly release over the keyboard.    I find that the long, skinny fingers have a harder time to arch them, so be patient about that because the fingers need to be strengthened.  I do finger exercises to reinforce the strength and arching them. 

Best wishes,

go12_3

[timothy42b]

Also, watch videos (YouTube) and send videos to her of children around her age playing with great posture and such.  Subliminally immerse her in it.

Careful though, she may get interested in youtube and see other pianists like Horowitz (flat fingers) or Fazil Say (fingers vertical) and get confused with how the greats do it. 

[m19834]

Careful though, she may get interested in youtube and see other pianists like Horowitz (flat fingers) or Fazil Say (fingers vertical) and get confused with how the greats do it. 

Oh, yes, well, my post is not meant as a support of curved fingers, per se (actually, I am nearly entirely opposed to these kinds of formulas (with the exception of a few things)), but more as a support in a means of transferring knowledge that is nearly impossible to actually put into words.  And, your post actually supports my point .

[fireseed]

I would say that more important a job as a piano teacher, even more so than teaching the instrument itself, it sharing the experience of joy the it can bring and having your students want to continue pursuing that joy long after your teaching is over.
I would say attempt to make her conscious of it, but don't take it too personally or severely if the 'details' don't come as quick. Posture can be easily re learned, but as for the love to play, not so much...

Maybe even let her improvise at points or at the end of a lesson if she is doing well, take time to laugh and play with the instrument as well...

Good luck!

[mcdiddy1]

I honestly don't believe in lazy and inattentive students....I do believe in unmotivated students. Seeing pictures of what good posture looks like is not likely to change what you do unless you see how it affects you. What you may consider doing is showing her what indirect messages she sends about herself with bad posture and what good posture can do for her playing and the disadvantages of playing with flat fingers. There are however times where it would be wise to use flat fingers like block chords on black keys or singing melody lines but you have to show her.
One thing i like to do is ask her to play a scale very fast and it next to impossible without having strong fingertips. When she finds that she is limiting her playing her mind might open up.
If she will not listen to you, mostly likely she is not connecting to who you are as a person. You wouldn't listen to someone you don't respect or have a strong relationship with so you may want to work on building up that before you give her any new advice.

[slobone]

8 years old is still very young. I would say, for the time being focus on teaching her things she seems able to learn. If she stays with the piano, you can always go back and fix her technique when she's a little older and more coordinated.

I know a lot of teachers don't believe it's possible to correct bad habits later on. "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree." But I don't agree. People are not trees. Even at my advanced age, I'm still fixing things that I've been doing wrong for years.

What's necessary is that the awareness and motivation be present. If they're not, there's not much you can do.

[dezfair]

I find often the best approach is humor. I pretend to be a famous pianist and approach the piano as pompously as possible. puffing out the chest and assuming a funny walk. (alla Max Wall or Victor Borge. )This lampooning is the means to an end and after much giggling I find they are willing to copy posture ques and separate the comical from the beneficial and serious matter of correct position. 

[bats_about_belfreys]

You mention "right posture", "right technique" etc but, as others point out, some of the great pianists have flat fingers, other vertical... Might it be that there is no single right technique as regards something so tied in with physiological variability? Thinking back to my early days at the piano, I would not have been in the slightest interested by pictures of concert pianists sitting straight and proud as tin soldiers, and learned for myself (and from my bones more than from the dear Mrs Swanson) about finger curving.

You also say the student has long, slender fingers. This is important and very lucky for her. What about setting things that are appropriate to long-slender, like Scott Joplin (original version, not the simplified ones), and in which the amount of jumping about required will, in itself, train the hands to launch themselves above the keyboard? Then balance this out with a Bach Fugue (heck, pretty much any of them) in which the fingers always have to negotiate a bit of fiddlesome bridging-over of other fingers. In that way she may realise the musical point behind manual posture, and have learned a couple of party pieces all at the same time.

As suggested by others, never cease appealing to her motivation. Statements about correct or incorrect ways have a tendency to depress people who do not agree with you. Let her find her own correct and incorrect, all based on music. She and you might enjoy things a lot more.

[mcdiddy1]

The famous pianist like Glenn Gould or Horwitz maybe have famously played with piano technique that is considered " incorrect" but that doesn't mean we should stop teaching beginners how to play with curved fingers. They did not necessarly play with that technique all the the time and they did it for a certain musical effect. In some recordings you can hear Horwitz's fingernails hitting the keys to get a clear articulate sound. True there are musical circumstances when you have to use flat fingers but for the majority of piano playing requires a specific technique to get the most out of the music.
 My old music theory teacher used to say..you have to know the rules first,  in order to break them.

If my children played how they felt like playing and what felt comfortable to them, they would play with their wrist and play with flabby fingers and make many otherwise simple pieces impossible to play. I agree with you that the teacher should not rely on pictures of concert pianist sitting straight to motivate great posture but rather guide to student to explain WHY we would want to play things a certain way.

[timothy42b]

I agree with you that the teacher should not rely on pictures of concert pianist sitting straight to motivate great posture but rather guide to student to explain WHY we would want to play things a certain way.

Ah.........no, I'm going to disagree with you on this one, because of the age of the student.

To an eight year old, an adult authority figure is only slightly less powerful than God.  Most of that power is over emotion of course, not cognition, because of their developmental age.

YOU need to know why the rules work.  (and in many cases, the rules are simply tradition and have no basis; but while this will drive a 14 year old nuts, it is meaningless to an 8 year old) 

The child does not.  It isn't helpful to an 8 year old to know why. 

But worse, you're going to explain it using words.  With an 8 year old, while you're talking learning stops.

(that is somewhat true at any age.  But older students can handle more words before shutdown;  younger ones cannot.  For every student words begin to detract from learning after the point is made, and most of us talk long past that point without realizing it.) 

On the other hand, 8 year olds are sponges with enormous capacity to learn by imitation.  We lose that gradually as we age and it's almost unavailable to adult students. 

If an 8 year old is inattentive, it's probably because your mouth is moving. 

If an 8 year old is unmotivated, it's probably because you said, "don't do that" instead of "do it like this."

"Watch me."  two words.  "Show me."  two words.  "Do it like this."  ah, four words, probably pushing the envelope, but short enough to maybe work.  maybe.  "Good job!"  probably can't say that enough.  But only when it's true.  But it's always true for something, if you look. 

[timothy42b]

I have mentioned to her no end of it.

She just won't listen.

fiddling about something when I am talking important things to her.

This child is telling you loud and clear that talking is not the way to reach her.

You're not getting her message because you're not listening.

She's not getting your message because you're talking. 

Not trying to be critical here.   But few people realize how quickly some children shut down when adults talk.  The less talking the better, when you have a child like this. 

And they're all like this.  At least to some extent. 

[dora96]

very interesting Tim. Your post is awakened. When I look at some children play, they just play the music how they want , the speed how they like. I know that it is not right but they enjoy it and proud of themselves. I really struggle sometimes do I want to be right or be happy? When I look at the young children play Suzuki violin. The way they hold the violin, the way they stand and the skill and concentration to play their music. Why they can do that in such as young age without music score all from memory?

Like my daughter is 10 years old. When she practices the piano, I know she is mucking about, not taking it seriously. She is doing so fast and spiral out of control, and she is getting frustrated and frustrated. When I try to give her friendly  advise, no thank you and she turn around and sneer at me. I think some kids like to push my button. They know what to do, but they just like to challenge me to see how much patient I have.

Interestingly, when my daughter performed last month in the school's talent quest, she played so beautiful,  right tempo. I can see her under the spot light plus there were so many diligent and devoted music lovers among the performances that forced her to do right. She said she concentrated so much to get it right during the performance, she was shaken and strained  after coming down from the stage. I think it is hard I can't make them to do a particular thing except there is a will and must come from inside to motivate them to do. My daughter won't take me seriously, but when she goes to her piano teacher. She listens to her.  Her piano teacher teaches her more or less the same thing, each time more less say the same thing like I say to her. The outcome is so different - Why should I be rejected ?

Sometimes, I think how bless and lucky my kids are. They have such a privilege, abundant resource to learn. Instead of being thankful and content. Just back to my 8 year kid, her family is also musical. Her mum is singer and also knows how to play the piano. Surely they should intimate or even inherit music naturally.   How to deal with these kids ? 

[go12_3]

Believe me, children never listen to the parents....as my experience as a piano teacher.
Parents can harp and try to make their children practice how they want them to, it won't matter one  tidbit.  Parents  are around when their children pracitice and therefore hear many of the mistakes being made. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[m19834]

On the other hand, 8 year olds are sponges with enormous capacity to learn by imitation.  We lose that gradually as we age and it's almost unavailable to adult students.

I know this is not what the thread is 'about' but I simply have to interject that I don't agree with you here in what you imply, that the capacity to learn by imitation is dependent upon age (or whether we are big people or little people) ; I observe it is related primarily or strictly to the individual's mentality.

[timothy42b]

I know this is not what the thread is 'about' but I simply have to interject that I don't agree with you here in what you imply, that the capacity to learn by imitation is dependent upon age (or whether we are big people or little people) ; I observe it is related primarily or strictly to the individual's mentality.

I didn't come up with this independently though.  This is also the opinion of a great many educators.

If I and they are right, it makes quite a difference in the teaching approach towards adult students as opposed to children.

I have had the experience of living in a foreign country and interacting with a large number of non English speakers.  Despite this saturation approach, neither my wife nor I learned any German by osmosis or imitation (most of my employees spoke only German around me, and I kept the German language satellite tv on).  What I did learn I had to study and drill. 

Kids, on the other hand, always learn their own language by imitation, fairly easily.  And the other American kids if they were young enough (mine were teenagers) picked up the language also. 

[m19834]

Well, nothing you have written really proves that it's not a matter of mentality vs. anything else. I am aware that many people and educators think as you have written about. That kind of stuff only means as much as it is applicable to the individual, and I am personally not ready to rule out a means of learning simply based on it.

I will ask though, if adults are basically incapable of learning by imitation, why do most Universities, Conservatories and music programs include a second piano for the instructor to sit at during the lesson ?  And, why in materclasses does the master often sit down to demonstrate if it is assumed that the student will not gain anything by demonstration/imitation ?

Then there are my own, personal experiences, too, of course. Personally, I learn A LOT by osmosis, imitation, and observation of my own teacher. I have learned more than I can put into words by carefully observing the pianists for whom I have turned pages. I even learn by watching my own students.  

Regarding my own teacher again, I can often actually feel music just when I am playing and he is standing or sitting near me, I feel the music or better feel/know what I have to do sometimes when he is conducting me, and I have sometimes had the opportunity of somehow learning immensely just by sitting near/next to my teacher while he is playing. In my University days, when my teacher sat at the piano next to me, I learned primarily by imitation and was able to experience (and therefore learn about) music in especially a whole new way when he would actually play right WITH me (which very sadly was not utilized very often AT ALL when it very easily could have been).  

[timothy42b]

karli,

Sounds like you think children are just smaller versions of adults, and vice versa.

I don't think so, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. 

[m19834]

karli,

Sounds like you think children are just smaller versions of adults, and vice versa.

Well, no. I actually never said anything like that and you are for some reason just deciding to invent what I am thinking. I do find it a little strange that this is your response to me saying that I think adults are capable of learning by imitation and to my post above ( ), but if this is your way of backing out of the whole thing, that is okay with me.  

In terms of what I actually think that adults and children ARE, I definitely think there is a lot that has to do with perspective, there is a lot that is relative, there is way more than ever comes close to meeting the eye, and when all is said and done, I would still like to treat each of my students like individuals and will continue to endeavor to work with people who treat me as an individual, as well.  

[dora96]

I also find that most of the students will be successful in learning music if parents are motivated, care for their learning. Especially, for younger students need help very much. Most piano lesson conduct once a week for 30 minutes.  The rest of the week, completely alone to practice, to make that commitment by small children are really hard. Since children are overwhelmed with other activities, school work. The majority of parents will think if children don't do well in piano. They still survive but they don't do well in their homework or exam. It more likely affect their future.

For our job as a piano teacher is getting harder. 

[penguinlover]

For a  young child, keep it fun!  Maybe sitting at the piano for the entire lesson is boring her, move a bit.  March, play games, do more than just sit.  I would advise playing for her too, and maybe even making a video of her playing a piece.  Do whatever it takes to keep her interested and pleased with herself.  Don't get bogged down with technicalities yet, it is more important to keep the motivation level high.

[keyofc]

I agree that keeping them motivated is important; but if they are motivated to continue to
play in a way that makes them sound bad just because they won't make minor adjustments - that is very frustrating!

One thing I've done is have kids close eyes and listen to me play a line in two different ways.
I would tell them - I am playing this with bad technique - and then play again - and say, Ok, this is the good technique.  They can't open their eyes - and then they are supposed to tell me which one
sounds the best.

This has worked for me a lot - when they see that the technique truly affects the sound
and it's not just a mindless rule, they have changed their habits.
On most students it's worked for me. 
Have you tried that?

[fastpara]

Try teaching her in another way. Do some alternative teaching of some sorts, in other words find out what motivates here and see if you can arrange with her mother to get that certain thing if she starts curving her fingers!

[anna_crusis]

I want to build her up with good technique and right posture and right attitude to music. I have printed pictures about how pianist sit and curve fingers, arm and shoulder alignment. She just takes no notice of it. She can play the music quite well and get most the notes right each lesson, but whole lazy posture, and fiddling about something when I am talking important things to her. I don't want to be mean to her.

For children to care about such things they have to absolutely love what they're playing, and they need a goal. Otherwise they see no reason to bother with fine details. At the moment, she's coasting. She's like a driver asleep behind the wheel.

Let her choose some popular music pieces to play, like some Disney tunes. Give her the opportunity to perform or record or compose something simple of her own. Get her enthusiastic about what she's doing.

If you watch kids doing something they love, like playing a particular computer game, then you'll find they are able to rattle off a huge list of fine pointers about the rules and 'the right way to do it'. They are obsessive about it. They're hard-wired by evolution to see the world in black and white, right and wrong. If you can harness this peculiar trait then you'll find they become just as pedantic about playing the piano.

[boywander]

well, as one of the posters here mentioned, sometimes they dont listen to talking.
its actually a lot easier to reach the young ones.
make it funny.
mimic her incorrect habbit, as a funny demonstration, exaggerate her sloppy posture. show how uncool it is, and make her laugh at your wobbly wrong playing.
then give a cool right demonstration, that looks and sounds good. make sure she opens her eyes in awe - this is how real pianists play.

when she forgets, while playing, correct her physically. touch her hand, lift her wrist, and hold her wrist for as long as she's sloppy. and do it every time she's performing a wrong habbit. don't slap her or anything, just correct her physically.
she won't like it.
she will avoid this habbit and the unpleasant correction.

BTW, that's something you can't do (or I can't do, being a male teacher) when their older. but 8 is fine.

Hope that helps,
Vander

[mcdiddy1]

Ah.........no, I'm going to disagree with you on this one, because of the age of the student.

To an eight year old, an adult authority figure is only slightly less powerful than God.  Most of that power is over emotion of course, not cognition, because of their developmental age.

YOU need to know why the rules work.  (and in many cases, the rules are simply tradition and have no basis; but while this will drive a 14 year old nuts, it is meaningless to an 8 year old) 

The child does not.  It isn't helpful to an 8 year old to know why. 

But worse, you're going to explain it using words.  With an 8 year old, while you're talking learning stops.

(that is somewhat true at any age.  But older students can handle more words before shutdown;  younger ones cannot.  For every student words begin to detract from learning after the point is made, and most of us talk long past that point without realizing it.) 

On the other hand, 8 year olds are sponges with enormous capacity to learn by imitation.  We lose that gradually as we age and it's almost unavailable to adult students. 

If an 8 year old is inattentive, it's probably because your mouth is moving. 

If an 8 year old is unmotivated, it's probably because you said, "don't do that" instead of "do it like this."

"Watch me."  two words.  "Show me."  two words.  "Do it like this."  ah, four words, probably pushing the envelope, but short enough to maybe work.  maybe.  "Good job!"  probably can't say that enough.  But only when it's true.  But it's always true for something, if you look. 

Well to clear up some things, you would be suprised by how much an eight- year old can comprehend. They can understand a little more than "Do it like this". And I do agree that for children at this level learn best by simple imitation. When I say show them why bad posture does not work I show them by demonstrating.

For example I have a student around that age who would move her feet while she played. So I demonstrated for her, acting pretty silly, what it looked like playing and moving my feet around. It was obviously difficult to concentrate on the music, distracting for the audience and later stop her from using the pedal. I showed her visually and reinforced it verbally. If she did not understand the verbal then she will remember to visual. Simply assuming a student cannot understand verbal information is silly due to students' different cognition levels.

[faulty_damper]

...she has quite long and skinny fingers, but she will not curve her fingers, weak and wobbly fingering when she is playing the piano.

. ... She can play the music quite well and get most the notes right each lesson, but whole lazy posture, and fiddling about something when I am talking important things to her. ...

You have indicated that she plays the music quite well.  So if it sounds good, what incentive or motivation does she have to change a very functional technique?  You sound like a new car dealer!  Would you trade in your car for a new model if it works and does everything you need it for?

I want to build her up with good technique and right posture and right attitude to music. 

The horse is behind the carriage on this one.  It's the music that dictates "good technique" and "right posture" and "right attitude."  If she really wants to play music but her technique is insufficient, she will buy that new car!

[gyzzzmo]

How to deal with lazy and unattentive students?
Shoot on sight.

[Bob]

Then you'd lose money from return visits.  It's best to cane them.  Better yet is to convince them that they need to cane themselves.

Unless you meant a non-mortal gunshot wound, such as shooting them in the leg.  That's a helpful way to get their attention too.  It's best to give them one verbal warning, without mentioning the shooting, and then to do it quick in order to maximize the surprise that way. 


When (if) they return the following week, you're practically guaranteed their attention, that they practiced a lot during the week, and that they'll answer questions correctly.

The downside is of course that they only have two legs so you can use that trick twice.  After the second time, they may have trouble leaving the place where you teach them.  You can't shoot them in the arms or hands because that will defeat the point of lessons.  Hence the point of caning.  Oranges and/or other citrus fruit in a pillowcase also works well and doesn't leave much for bruises.

The other downside is that this can lead toward students taking you very literally and having them follow your instructions to the letter.  It can limit creative thinking.  Some might be annoyed by being shot too.  Shooting after they bleed on the piano keys isn't much of a solution either.  Hence the caning idea again.

Caning is also a "green" type of motivation.  You can grow your own and have that as
a little side gardening project in addition to teaching lessons. 

A swift rap on the knuckles with a good, supple cane stalk is the way to go.

[point of grace]

Hi all,

I really struggle at the moment. I have a student that she is 8 years old. She has been learning the piano from me for 6 months from the beginning to now. she has quite long and skinny fingers, but she will not curve her fingers, weak and wobbly fingering when she is playing the piano. I have mentioned to her no end of it. Curve the fingers nice and firm. She just won't listen. I also talk about this issue to her mum, but her mum thinks that if that she is comfortable to play the piano. " Just let it be".

I worry about her posture and technique. I want to build her up with good technique and right posture and right attitude to music. I have printed pictures about how pianist sit and curve fingers, arm and shoulder alignment. She just takes no notice of it. She can play the music quite well and get most the notes right each lesson, but whole lazy posture, and fiddling about something when I am talking important things to her. I don't want to be mean to her. It is getting really annoying. Do you guys have any suggestion to deal with this?

which pieces do you work with her?