Short and demanding pieces

[gerryjay]

dear all!
i need some help. my practice time is very reduced those days, but i really want to improve my technique and keep challenging myself. to give you an idea of what i'm about, the last piece i finished was the second ballad, by chopin. i would love to tackle a scherzo or something, but studying a long piece is, thus, out of question. so, i'm talking about pieces of no more than 2 minutes: the shorter and the harder, the better!

any suggestions?

best for all!

[thalbergmad]

The Liszt - Ab Irato is one that springs to mind, but i think you would be pressed to play it in 2 mintues.

Thal

[gerryjay]

hey, thal! how are you?
you've just hit the mark! that's the kind of piece i'm talking about: almost every phrase presents challenges. and there's no problem about its threeish duration, although it is (due to my study methods) a hard limit.

would you have another brilliant suggestion? about the liszt, do you have any fave recording?

thanks a lot, and best!

[ramseytheii]

Virtually any Scarlatti sonata!

Certain Chopin Preludes (G major, d minor, g# minor).

Also several Scriabin Preludes or Etudes fit this description.


Walter Ramsey

[imbetter]

Look at Rachmaninoff's Etudes-Tableau.

[kay3087]

The Well-Tempered Clavier.

[kay3087]

And the Diabelli Variations of Beethoven. All of them are extremely demanding, and more than half are less than a minute long (each variation can be played as a separate piece).

[gerryjay]

Virtually any Scarlatti sonata!

Certain Chopin Preludes (G major, d minor, g# minor).

Also several Scriabin Preludes or Etudes fit this description.


Walter Ramsey

dear walter:
thanks for your post. would you have specific suggestions about scarlatti and scriabin?
best!

[lontano]

dear all!
i need some help. my practice time is very reduced those days, but i really want to improve my technique and keep challenging myself. to give you an idea of what i'm about, the last piece i finished was the second ballad, by chopin. i would love to tackle a scherzo or something, but studying a long piece is, thus, out of question. so, i'm talking about pieces of no more than 2 minutes: the shorter and the harder, the better!

any suggestions?

best for all!

I present you with 3 Preludes by Samuil Feinberg. They are short and to the point, and they will (if you play them with the dexterity the instructions the score demands (think Scriabin on peyote). I'll attempt to upload the PDFs of the Op.15 "3 Preludes".

[m]

I present you with 3 Preludes by Samuil Feinberg. They are short and to the point, and they will (if you play them with the dexterity the instructions the score demands (think Scriabin on peyote). I'll attempt to upload the PDFs of the Op.15 "3 Preludes".

Thank you for these Preludes. I recorded Feinberg's piano Sonata No.6, Op.15, which is very close in time period with those Preludes. It is very interesting to see how his manner of writing in that period penetrates from one piece to another. Feinberg was one of the greatest pianists ever lived and one of the greatest minds in music. IMO, his book Pianism as an Art is one of the most important books on piano pedagogy, performance, and approach to technique, ever written.

To the original poster: if you are into something short and challenging, which should be a Scherzo, then look no further than Mendelssohn-Rachmaninov, Scherzo from Midsummer-Night Dream. IMHO, by far the hardest piece ever written for piano. In any case, it is worth of Chopin Op.10/2 and Feux-Follets together.
I have been working on it for about 30 years and still did not dare to play in public.

Also, I could suggest Rachmaninov Moment Musicaux Op.16 no.2 in E flat minor.

Best, M

[nanabush]

Any Rach/Chopin/Debussy/Scriabin etudes that are under 2-3 minutes are usually ridiculous.

Scriabin's Op 65 #3 is pretty awesome sounding, but seems very awkward once I look at the sheets.

Virtually all of Rach's Op 39 can be used (save for #2, #5 and #7), and they have fiendishly difficult passages throughout.  His Op 33 #6 in Eb minor is also one crazy piece of work.
Also, his prelude in Eb minor looks very similar to Feux Follets by Liszt, but is only 4 pages and about two minutes of double notes  

Debussy's Octave, Chord, 4 fingers, and Chromatic etudes are pretty interesting.  I don't know the numbers, but those are the techniques in each.

Some of Chopin's preludes too: #19 Eb major has difficult parts in every measure I'd say, along with #16 in Bb minor, and #24 in D minor.  I'd stand by the argument that those preludes are among some that are harder than a good chunk of his etudes.  The jumps in #19, the speed of #16, and the insane scales/thirds/arpeggios that come out of nowhere in #24 pose serious challenges.

I'm not a huge fan of them, but some Godowsky's Chopin Etudes are short enough, and are probably (I've never tried any) very difficult.

Fur Elise is a very hard song.
...did I just say that?

[quantum]

Scriabin Op.65

[mike_lang]

IMO, his book Pianism as an Art is one of the most important books on piano pedagogy, performance, and approach to technique, ever written.

Is this available in translation?

Mike

[gerryjay]

I present you with 3 Preludes by Samuil Feinberg. They are short and to the point, and they will (if you play them with the dexterity the instructions the score demands (think Scriabin on peyote). I'll attempt to upload the PDFs of the Op.15 "3 Preludes".

dear lontano:
scriabin on peyote rocks! thanks for the idea and supporting score.
best!

[gerryjay]

To the original poster: if you are into something short and challenging, which should be a Scherzo, then look no further than Mendelssohn-Rachmaninov, Scherzo from Midsummer-Night Dream. IMHO, by far the hardest piece ever written for piano. In any case, it is worth of Chopin Op.10/2 and Feux-Follets together.
I have been working on it for about 30 years and still did not dare to play in public.

Also, I could suggest Rachmaninov Moment Musicaux Op.16 no.2 in E flat minor.

Best, M

dear marik:
i think that scherzo is way, way beyond my possibilities. anyway, chopin opus 10/2 is a great idea. i really like that study and it is short enough.
best!

[gerryjay]

Any Rach/Chopin/Debussy/Scriabin etudes that are under 2-3 minutes are usually ridiculous.

Scriabin's Op 65 #3 is pretty awesome sounding, but seems very awkward once I look at the sheets.

Virtually all of Rach's Op 39 can be used (save for #2, #5 and #7), and they have fiendishly difficult passages throughout.  His Op 33 #6 in Eb minor is also one crazy piece of work.
Also, his prelude in Eb minor looks very similar to Feux Follets by Liszt, but is only 4 pages and about two minutes of double notes  

Debussy's Octave, Chord, 4 fingers, and Chromatic etudes are pretty interesting.  I don't know the numbers, but those are the techniques in each.

Some of Chopin's preludes too: #19 Eb major has difficult parts in every measure I'd say, along with #16 in Bb minor, and #24 in D minor.  I'd stand by the argument that those preludes are among some that are harder than a good chunk of his etudes.  The jumps in #19, the speed of #16, and the insane scales/thirds/arpeggios that come out of nowhere in #24 pose serious challenges.

I'm not a huge fan of them, but some Godowsky's Chopin Etudes are short enough, and are probably (I've never tried any) very difficult.

Fur Elise is a very hard song.
...did I just say that?

dear nanabush:
thanks a lot! i don't know how, but i didn't remember the chopin preludes so far. great idea! 16 is probably a winner in my case, since it is very short, but humongously difficult.

debussy's eight fingers is a favorite! it starts to get difficult to decide by now...so many great ideas, so little time to play...

best!

[ara9100]

Franz Liszt                 -  Transcendental etude No 2 in a minor.
Johaness Brahms       - A couple of variations of you choice form his Paganini Variations (Incredibly difficult)
                                 - 1 to 4 of his hungarian dances. From Les Seize valses Op.39
Sergei Rachmaninoff   - Musical Moment No.2 in E flat minor Op.16   
Frederic Chopin          - The 2nd Mvt. form his Piano sonata is short but very difficult.
                                 - Etude No.1,4,5,8,12 Op.10  No.6,8,12 Op. 25


               

[jim_24601]

dear walter:
thanks for your post. would you have specific suggestions about scarlatti and scriabin?
best!

As far as Scarlatti goes, why not start from the beginning? K1 in d minor is a favourite of mine, and not much more than 2 minutes even with the repeats. For a serious challenge, try K141 (also d minor). I'm also a fan of the Cat Fugue K30, but that might be a bit long for you. (ABRSM says Cat Fugue is grade 8, but personally I think it's a bit on the tough side--all those wrist-cracking double sixths eep!)

[antichrist]

all kinds of short etude from Chopin,Henselt ,Alkan

liszt transcendental 1 , gnomereign

rach prelude

[gerryjay]

Franz Liszt                 -  Transcendental etude No 2 in a minor.
Johaness Brahms       - A couple of variations of you choice form his Paganini Variations (Incredibly difficult)
                                 - 1 to 4 of his hungarian dances. From Les Seize valses Op.39
Sergei Rachmaninoff   - Musical Moment No.2 in E flat minor Op.16   
Frederic Chopin          - The 2nd Mvt. form his Piano sonata is short but very difficult.
                                 - Etude No.1,4,5,8,12 Op.10  No.6,8,12 Op. 25

dear ara:
thanks for those great ideas, specially the liszt.
best!

[gerryjay]

As far as Scarlatti goes, why not start from the beginning? K1 in d minor is a favourite of mine, and not much more than 2 minutes even with the repeats. For a serious challenge, try K141 (also d minor). I'm also a fan of the Cat Fugue K30, but that might be a bit long for you. (ABRSM says Cat Fugue is grade 8, but personally I think it's a bit on the tough side--all those wrist-cracking double sixths eep!)

dear jim:
as far as abrsm grading is concerned, i'm talking about LRSM or above, disregarding duration issues (since most of FRSM are just big LRSMs). i'd take a look in this k 141, thanks for the suggestion.
best!

[mike_lang]

DELETED

[lontano]

Well gerryjay, if you haven't received enough suggestions yet, here's one more. Nicklos Medtner wrote a lot of relatively short pieces (I'm just getting familiar with a whole bunch of them). One type of work he wrote he called "Skazki", often interpreted as "Fairy Tales (of just Tales)". Unlike Rachmaninoff (or other composers venturing into this sort of thing) Medtner's Skazki aren't obvious tone-paintings of storybook subjects. What the seem to me are (often short, but likewise difficult) works from his own imagination. He wrote quite a few from several sets. I'll attach one or two sets I happen to have PDFs of for you (and all) to try out. I think they're fascinating works, but intimately Medtner, not quite like anyone else.

Enjoy  

[gerryjay]

dear lontano:
cool suggestion! very cool indeed, because it happens to go deeper than this query: i got, a couple of years ago, the recording of all medtner made by geoffrey tozer to chandos but i never actually did listen to it! those cd's were hidden in my shelf, but today i started listen carefully to this music.
so, thank you very much! for sure i'll play a couple of medtner, perhaps not the difficult ones, but to have some real fun.
best!

[jim_24601]

dear jim:
as far as abrsm grading is concerned, i'm talking about LRSM or above, disregarding duration issues (since most of FRSM are just big LRSMs). i'd take a look in this k 141, thanks for the suggestion.
best!

Ah. Well, most of Scarlatti sits around grade 6-8, but the LRSM syllabus includes 5 pairs of sonatas:
K52 and K96.
K115 and K116.
K424 and K425.
K426 and K427.
K544 and K545.

[gerryjay]

dear jim:
thanks! i'll give a look in those pairs.
best!

[accauditor]

or you could check out the piece i wrote  check out the topic i just started i posted a video of me playing it

ciao....

[learner of liszt]

Alkan's Etude Op. 35 No. 6 is very short, and (I find) immensely challenging. Chopin also has some difficult short stuff in his etudes, but you may have already studied those. Perhaps Rachmaninoff Etude Op. 39 No. 6 at Lisitsa's caffeinated speed?

[smj9195]

having said that you have played a chopin ballade, In my opinion, the most chopin preludes would be easy for you. Pieces that are short, improve your tecnique and work out as a recital piece are
chopin etudes.

[ahinton]

Lots of useful suggestions here, to which I will add any one of quite a few of Sorabji's 100 Transcendental Studies; try no. 1, for starters (it comes in at a whisker under 2 minutes in Fredrik Ullén's exciting if neurologically improbable tempo)...

Best,

Alistair

[georgecziffra]

Sorabji's transcendental etude with the chord glissandos is also an interesting one to try; I can't remember if it's number 21 or 22...

[slow_concert_pianist]

I cannot understand this perpetual fascination with speed. Very few works 'need' to be played as they often are. Liszt's Transcendental Etude 2 is one of the few that simply does not work at a slower speed (and my God I've tried in my younger days!), but I have not one recording that I would class as superlative. There are many superb examples of the other etudes (incl Mazeppa), but this one always has problems with interpretation.

That is the one I would do in your shoes, but are you at that level (because, in my shoes, I would not dare attempt it now I respect Liszt's genious)?